Hand Made versus Hand Crafted

[Denise]

Noticeably hand made (or hand crafted if there's a machine involved) is good.

This is a quote from Seth on the "well finished" thread. I have never seen that distinction being made before. I'm wondering what others see as the definitions of hand made or hand crafted?

[Suze]

for me (and the area I live in ) it usually boils down to QUALITY and PERSEPTION OF WORTH

home made is usually not very well done. (like the "ghost" halloween costume out of a bed sheet with two holes for eyes)

hand made is a step up from that - using a pattern from the store and it looks pretty good if not very original.

Hand Crafted is the master work - you made that costume from scratch and it wins the prize at the contest.

It also has something to do with how much you charge for your work. People will pay more for something that is listed as hand crafted over hand made. (and it could be the SAME product. merchandising is important)

Hand Crafted implies to a lot of people a BETTER product. (doesn't matter if it is or not.)

just my two pennies worth

but it sounds like Seth means that if you do not touch it with a machine it is "hand made" and if you use some sort of machine to do some of the work it is "Crafted"

[hidepounder]

Denise,

I think they mean the exact same thing.....it will be interesting to what others think.....

Bob

[Vikti]

Hidepounder, I feel that there is a difference between hand crafted and hand made. I consider what we all do for a hobby is hand crafted, we get intimate with whatever we're making, we put in a serious effort to make each project unique. Hand made, to me, means that there was a person involved in the manufacture of it but nothing that makes one different from the other. When Bi-Moto motorcycles first went into business they were not automated in the least. While they had milling machines and such needed to make their engines and frames they didn't use any kind of robotic equipment. There was a person handling each part involved in each bike they put out and that's what I consider "hand made", direct human involvement but not anything unique about what they make.

Damon

I like these little, relaxed debates

[Rayban]

I agree with you hidepounder.....making leather stuff and making motor cycles....hmmmm..tough one.

This is just another one of those " let's stir up some do-do" posts....and darn it if I didn't bite,....

[Rayban]

for me (and the area I live in ) it usually boils down to QUALITY and PERSEPTION OF WORTH

home made is usually not very well done. (like the "ghost" halloween costume out of a bed sheet with two holes for eyes)

hand made is a step up from that - using a pattern from the store and it looks pretty good if not very original.

Hand Crafted is the master work - you made that costume from scratch and it wins the prize at the contest.

It also has something to do with how much you charge for your work. People will pay more for something that is listed as hand crafted over hand made. (and it could be the SAME product. merchandising is important)

Hand Crafted implies to a lot of people a BETTER product. (doesn't matter if it is or not.)

just my two pennies worth

but it sounds like Seth means that if you do not touch it with a machine it is "hand made" and if you use some sort of machine to do some of the work it is "Crafted"

So Suze, what if I make something by hand at home and it wins a contest??

Don't you all have something better to do??/ And what am I doing taking part in this??? I'm going for a beer run....

[Luke Hatley]

I believe it is a Ploy with Words. when you see the finished product

you can tell the difference.

[Suze]

So Suze, what if I make something by hand at home and it wins a contest??

Don't you all have something better to do??/ And what am I doing taking part in this??? I'm going for a beer run....

and that would be Hand Crafted with the side note of Award Winning (plus $50.00 for that one)

and no I don't have anything better to do (at least that I WANT to do)

I'd rather have a Pina Colada......if your going anyway.

[whinewine]

I believe it is a Ploy with Words. when you see the finished product

you can tell the difference.

I agree! Quality is quality, regardless of labels.

russ

[hidepounder]

I understand the distinction that's being made and have no arguments. The thing is...I don't think the terms "hand made" or "hand crafted" have any link to quality. Go into any curio shop or tourist trap and you'll find a hundred "hand crafted" and "hand made" elephants, pots, jewelry, boxes, bugs, day planners, whips, .....you name it!.......they all fall into the "hand crafted/made" category. They are purchased by the carload from Indonesia, China, Mexico, Phillipines.......everywhere around the world were labor is cheap. I'm not knocking them...they're great!...and I've purchased my fair share.....but there's no "quality" to the items. I know that the term "hand crafted" or "hand made" is supposed to represent quality....but were you fooled? Did you ever consider that quality is part of the deal....of course not! So for me, whether it says "hand made" or "hand crafted" just isn't important. I'll use the terms on my makers stamp just to take up space or because it's traditional to do so....but I'm not fooling anybody. My work will have to sell itself.......................................THAT'S DEPRESSING!

Bob

[Denise]

This is just another one of those " let's stir up some do-do" posts

That certainly wasn't my intention by any means. I had just never seen the two distinguished in that way before so I wondered what others thought. I was surprised that Seth saw "hand crafted" as involving machines and "hand made" as not. I hadn't thought about it before but would have labeled them the opposite.

It is hard to know how to label our saddle trees. Production lines advertise they make "custom" trees because they allow some specification on the measurements. So we started using "hand made" to distinguish the fact that we build individual pieces specifically for individual orders without using duplicating machines, though we do use some power tools. Lately, I have seen "hand made" attached to trees that were touched by human hands during a production process. Yes, there are people involved in putting machine made parts together and sewing on rawhide or spraying on box liner, but we don't do it that way. So now I describe them as "hand crafted" to try to make the distinction. I agree that it is mainly semantics, but I was trying to figure out if using one term compared to the other would communicate better the difference in the products.

[rdb]

First off, the word Craft has been so watered down it is inconsequential. Check the internet and you will see millions of pages under "Arts and Craft",all claiming hand made, or handcrafted, most of them containing instructions on how to stitch a felt wallet together with yarn, or painting a baloon with nail polish (pardon my hyperbole). It has become meaningless. I prefer to ignore the word.

I prefer to consider what I do full time as a trade. Oh sure, I attempt to make what some might consider art at times, but for the most part, my trade is making or repairing useful items for those that need, in exchange for something of equal value, be it money, or chickens... Creating the Sistine Chapel every time I sat at my bench would drive me mad in just a brief time. Sometimes you just have to make a simple belt.

I understand what Seth was attempting to say, but I believe he is also wrong in his distinctions. Traditionally handmade and handcrafted are synonymous. A sewing machine is a machine, but it was invented in 1790. If I sew by hand, I just make that distinction..."handsewn". Many clients may prefer it, for different reasons, and some can even afford it...lol.

My friend made a small hammer for me on his metal lathe, but it was him doing the turning. As far as I'm concerned, it was hand made. Hand made, Hand crafted can mean many things to many people. Ask 10,000 people, and you'll get 10,001 different definitions. But I think everyone can make the distinction between a mass produced mechanized product, and something that comes out of some guys shop.

So. whether you call what you do as being a leathercrafter, leathersmith, leatherworker, or whatever, it all comes down to the fact that you made it.

I don't think we should make such big distinctions between hand made, handcrafted, etc. A museum commission to make a replica holster might require a "purist" approach but whether you hand build the machines you use, or buy them, they are still machines, but nobody would claim the products weren't hand made. And that mostly means that you as an individual are reponsible for the creation of the product.

-quick rant #37890882 but if you disagree, go ahead.

[JohnBarton]

I see it like this;

If the substantial portion of the work is done by hand then it's hand made. If the majority of the work is done by machine or aided by jigs then it's not hand made.

We have a laser to cut parts. We have a sewing machine to sew. Once the laser is programmed it will cut the same part the same way forever. Unlike tracing out the pattern and cutting it out by hand.

A process may be hand-guided, such as sewing, drilling, sanding, etc.... but unless the only method of changing the properties of the piece is by human power only then it's not "hand-made".

We sand a lot of edges using the dremel. If we had to use a file and elbow grease then it would take a lot longer. Using the dremel is still a skill that has to be learned, it's very easy to ruin a part by slipping with the dremel at the wrong time.

So there is definitely grey area here. On most of our cases there are parts which are hand sewn BUT maybe we made the holes by using the sewing machine.

But basically my thinking is that if the piece is going to carry the general description of "hand made" then it should be made without the assistance of motorized tools. Especially where "hand made" is the largest part of the marketing of the product.

[JohnBarton]

First off, the word Craft has been so watered down it is inconsequential. Check the internet and you will see millions of pages under "Arts and Craft",all claiming hand made, or handcrafted, most of them containing instructions on how to stitch a felt wallet together with yarn, or painting a baloon with nail polish (pardon my hyperbole). It has become meaningless. I prefer to ignore the word.

I prefer to consider what I do full time as a trade. Oh sure, I attempt to make what some might consider art at times, but for the most part, my trade is making or repairing useful items for those that need, in exchange for something of equal value, be it money, or chickens... Creating the Sistine Chapel every time I sat at my bench would drive me mad in just a brief time. Sometimes you just have to make a simple belt.

I understand what Seth was attempting to say, but I believe he is also wrong in his distinctions. Traditionally handmade and handcrafted are synonymous. A sewing machine is a machine, but it was invented in 1790. If I sew by hand, I just make that distinction..."handsewn". Many clients may prefer it, for different reasons, and some can even afford it...lol.

My friend made a small hammer for me on his metal lathe, but it was him doing the turning. As far as I'm concerned, it was hand made. Hand made, Hand crafted can mean many things to many people. Ask 10,000 people, and you'll get 10,001 different definitions. But I think everyone can make the distinction between a mass produced mechanized product, and something that comes out of some guys shop.

So. whether you call what you do as being a leathercrafter, leathersmith, leatherworker, or whatever, it all comes down to the fact that you made it.

I don't think we should make such big distinctions between hand made, handcrafted, etc. A museum commission to make a replica holster might require a "purist" approach but whether you hand build the machines you use, or buy them, they are still machines, but nobody would claim the products weren't hand made. And that mostly means that you as an individual are reponsible for the creation of the product.

-quick rant #37890882 but if you disagree, go ahead.

I think part of the problem comes in when people want to use "handmade" to be equal to "well made". There are thousands and thousands of leather (and leather-like) goods made in Mexico, China, and just about all places with lots of tourists and little sense which are all hand-made but not well made.

Using your example of the hammer made on a lathe. I agree that the lathe is inert until someone "tells" it what to do. But the grunt work of shaping that hammer is done by a machine which is capable of doing the work faster and more precisely than a man can.

How well the operator can use his lathe and the resulting quality is of course all due the person controlling the machine. But it's still a machined part and as such a "machine-made" product.

I can't stand it when someone crows about something being "hand-made" and I see tons of flaws in the piece. And then they try to say "well it's hand made there are supposed to be flaws"....... Not to me, not the kinds of flaws which can be prevented by working with care and patience. Not when there are people who do make everything by hand and it's practically flawless.

We just had this discussion in the thread about what to do with your "seconds" and someone said something like "it's handmade, there are supposed to be flaws". I respectfully disagree. It might be really really tough to make something entirely by hand without flaws but it's possible and those are the things that SHOULD be priced the highest, valued the most and treasured forever.

So let's all agree to drop the marketingspeak aspect of "hand made" where it is presumed to be taken as "well made" and just agree that hand made means "a lot of aching work went into this" and kiss my butt if you don't like it

[JohnBarton]

Hand Crafted and Hand Made mean the same thing to me. No power tools.

[UKRay]

This is something I have wondered about for a while especially when I have been writing eBay descriptions.

The truth is that Luke is right - it is simply a play on words designed to add 'value' to an item. As a passionate marketeer I can't help but admire the spirit behind the action but the fact remains, it doesn't really matter whether you call something hand made or hand crafted because whatever distinctions they may have had in the past have been swamped by cheap, shoddy imported goods being given the same descriptors.

At this point I started looking around for an alternative way of saying the same thing; and then realised I was simply perpetuating the nonsense...

Call it what you will, generally speaking, people recognise something of quality. If they don't recognise your work as being high quality then it is time to educate them. Just remember that some people will never understand...

[JohnBarton]

This is something I have wondered about for a while especially when I have been writing eBay descriptions.

The truth is that Luke is right - it is simply a play on words designed to add 'value' to an item. As a passionate marketeer I can't help but admire the spirit behind the action but the fact remains, it doesn't really matter whether you call something hand made or hand crafted because whatever distinctions they may have had in the past have been swamped by cheap, shoddy imported goods being given the same descriptors.

At this point I started looking around for an alternative way of saying the same thing; and then realised I was simply perpetuating the nonsense...

Call it what you will, generally speaking, people recognise something of quality. If they don't recognise your work as being high quality then it is time to educate them. Just remember that some people will never understand...

Well we hope that people can recognize quality. The truth is that as they say "on the internet nobody knows you're a dog". I have had to deal with this for years when all the big importers started knocking off my designs and to add insult to injury they stole my descriptions straight off my website either verbatim or closely enough to have the same "quality" description applied to their inferior knockoffs.

The internet age has made it all worse in some regards and better in others. Now at least for all the deceptive marketing lingo that is either falsely used or unintentionally abused there are ways for the little guy to fight back. First you can say all that you want to about what quality means to you and you can define the terms as you wish. This means that whomever reads your dissertation has to at least think about it and goes forth with your view on their mind to weigh against that which other people write about their stuff.

Secondly you can show off your points in as many and as detailed of pictures as you so choose to. This one is double edged sword though. Because if you show off your best features or their worst features you also leave the door open for them to copy your format and show off images of their "good" stuff while what they really deliver is junk.

I just fight the fight wherever I can whenever I can. If I see an auction or a for sale posting where the description is misleading then I will say something about it.

Saying something about the use of "hand made" though is much trickier. When I see it used and it's applied to something that is less than stellar but they want a premium price or they have a cheap thing they are trying to pass off as a good thing I just shrug and move on - in hopes that others can see what I can.

I also disagree that using hand made or hand crafted is just a play on words. If the item does fit that description then it should be used to give it more distinction. The problem however is that everyone uses it so it's lost it's luster a little bit.

I use the words hand-sewn to describe certain areas of the case that are hand sewn. Normally I wouldn't use it BUT I feel I have to because there are those who make a big deal out of hand sewing on my competitor's cases. So I feel I need to point out that aspect on our cases as well lest ours be taken as inferior because they aren't "hand sewn".

Edited May 9, 2009 by JohnBarton

[UKRay]

Well we hope that people can recognize quality.

Many can't!

Now at least for all the deceptive marketing lingo that is either falsely used or unintentionally abused there are ways for the little guy to fight back. First you can say all that you want to about what quality means to you and you can define the terms as you wish. This means that whomever reads your dissertation has to at least think about it and goes forth with your view on their mind to weigh against that which other people write about their stuff.

Agreed providing you are both literate and eloquent - some people aren't.

Secondly you can show off your points in as many and as detailed of pictures as you so choose to. This one is double edged sword though. Because if you show off your best features or their worst features you also leave the door open for them to copy your format and show off images of their "good" stuff while what they really deliver is junk.

True enough on both counts

I just fight the fight wherever I can whenever I can. If I see an auction or a for sale posting where the description is misleading then I will say something about it. Saying something about the use of "hand made" though is much trickier. When I see it used and it's applied to something that is less than stellar but they want a premium price or they have a cheap thing they are trying to pass off as a good thing I just shrug and move on - in hopes that others can see what I can.

Because you recognise that they are playing with words that no longer have real significance behind them?

I also disagree that using hand made or hand crafted is just a play on words. If the item does fit that description then it should be used to give it more distinction. The problem however is that everyone uses it so it's lost it's luster a little bit.

Precisely my point, John - in times gone by hand crafted and hand made were indicators of quality. Now they are simply part of the marketing 'word game'

I use the words hand sewn to describe certain areas of the case that are hand sewn. Normally I wouldn't use it BUT I feel I have to because there are those who make a big deal out of hand sewing on my competitor's cases. So I feel I need to point out that aspect on our cases as well lest ours be taken as inferior because they aren't "hand sewn".

Why wouldn't you use it? Is hand sewn different from hand made or hand crafted - I think it is. My (rather weak) reasoning is that hand made and hand crafted can apply to so many different items, crafts, materials. IMHO, 'hand sewn' as an expression isn't tainted in the same way...

[whinewine]

That certainly wasn't my intention by any means. I had just never seen the two distinguished in that way before so I wondered what others thought. I was surprised that Seth saw "hand crafted" as involving machines and "hand made" as not. I hadn't thought about it before but would have labeled them the opposite.

It is hard to know how to label our saddle trees. Production lines advertise they make "custom" trees because they allow some specification on the measurements. So we started using "hand made" to distinguish the fact that we build individual pieces specifically for individual orders without using duplicating machines, though we do use some power tools. Lately, I have seen "hand made" attached to trees that were touched by human hands during a production process. Yes, there are people involved in putting machine made parts together and sewing on rawhide or spraying on box liner, but we don't do it that way. So now I describe them as "hand crafted" to try to make the distinction. I agree that it is mainly semantics, but I was trying to figure out if using one term compared to the other would communicate better the difference in the products.

How about something like "hand built" if you have to use a label of some sort (till that too becomes a cliche)?

[JamesR]

I am just learning about leatherworking but I am an experienced furnituremaker.

I do not see any real distinction between the two terms. When I want to distinguish really high class woodworking I believe you have to describe the "hand" methods used and why they are superior to machine methods. The best way to join two boards together and form the most flawless glue joint is to hand plane the edges not machine them. This is something that demonstrates the superiority of handwork to machine work.

Correct me if I am wrong but the best method of stitching two pieces of leather together is saddlestitching not machine stitching.

I think without a description or explanation of the differences between handwork vs machine work we really cannot distinguish our work. People do not readily recognize quality, they have to be taught the subtle differences. The outward appearance of a thing does not always signify its quality.

Jim

[rdb]

I keep reading and listening, but I'm still confused by the semantics.

I still believe it's the personal responsibility that is the key, not the tools (hands or machine).

So, I design a wallet. I have a metalworker make dies. I have the parts clicked out. Bring them home, and design a graphic on my computer for the wallet carving. I have a laser etch the design onto the leather, then use my compressor and airbrush to stain and color. Then I hand glue and assemble. Using my Toro 300, I sew it together. I sell it at the Festival. There is the dilemna!!!! Is it hand made, hand crafted, or just simply made by Me? In the medieval days, the best smithy used all the tools at his disposal, be it the new forge designed, or some specially crafted tool. In this modern age, we do the same thing. Is our product some mutant beast, or still a product made by a creative individual as opposed to a conglomerate output?

Using semantics, the only true craftsman would hunt and kill with his hands, butcher, and tan with his teeth, and thong together with strips of torn bark.

I refuse to be classified. If anyone asks.."I made it."

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Hidepounder et al, I agree with you. On my cards and sign it says " Custom Saddles and Tack, All Handmade the Old-Fashioned Way", so I am not sure which catagory that puts me in. Bottom line, the quality will always determine where you fit.

Bondo Bob

[TwinOaks]

Using the definition of "machine" as per Wiki: A simple machine is a device that transforms the direction or magnitude of a force

Now a good example of a simple machine is the inclined plane....call it a slope.

Now, if a slope can be a machine, then I suggest that a needle can be a machine, a VERY simple machine. Try sewing with out one. It directs a force (shove the needle through the leather) and then allows the user to transform the pushing force into pulling force (because you're using a needle that's too large for the hole).

I gotta agree with rdb's last comment. If you use anything but harsh language to cut, penetrate, bind, or finish your projects you've used a machine.....some of them could be called "tool". About the only leather thing I think you could make with NO TOOLS....well, nevermind. You gotta get the skin off the cow somehow.

Edited May 9, 2009 by TwinOaks

[Rayban]

Correct me if I am wrong but the best method of stitching two pieces of leather together is saddlestitching not machine stitching.

Jim

Jim, that's a whooooole nudder discussion that also comes up every now and then when someone decides it's been too quiet around here....

My answer in a word is....depends.....some leather work will always have to be hand stitched, while others, machine stitching will do just as good of a job...such as lining a knife sheath...

Now let's sit back, pop open a cold one, and see what you've done started.

RG

[JamesR]

Jim, that's a whooooole nudder discussion that also comes up every now and then when someone decides it's been too quiet around here....

My answer in a word is....depends.....some leather work will always have to be hand stitched, while others, machine stitching will do just as good of a job...such as lining a knife sheath...

Now let's sit back, pop open a cold one, and see what you've done started.

RG

Rayban,

Sincerly was not trying to start anything. I was just trying to come up with a comparison between one way to do something vs another. I am not leather savvy enough to know which methods are the state of the art way of doing things.

Jim