Redheaded Nerdgirl Seeking To Emulate Same

[Cavatica]

Hey all!

So I am super-duper new to leatherwork. I have plenty of experience as your standard nerdgirl cosplay costumer, including a LITTLE bit of sewing work with leather -- Exhibit A -- but I've never tried wet-forming the stuff, or tooling it or any of that other fancy business.

I have a friend in real life who's worked with leather a ton, and he's already proved a valuable resource in a lot of regards. But I'm also attempting to try some stuff he hasn't yet, which is where you all come in!

About two weeks ago, I got it into my head that for this year's Dragon*Con, I'd like to try doing Felicia Day's Tallis costume from the upcoming Dragon Age: Redemption web series. It's important to note that the series hasn't actually AIRED yet, but a) I'm a new redhead, Felicia Day is awesome, and c) everyone's already done her Codex outfit from The Guild. Plus, this will involve learning new skills, which is important if I want to be any kind of costumer worth a damn, right?

The costume looks like this.

I realize I could do this with foam or cloth or any number of other materials, but it sure looks to me like it's made of leather, and that's how I'd like to do it. (Incidentally, I reached out to the costume designer, Shawna Trpcic, who was very nice but who wouldn't tell me what the material is before the web series' actual release. So I get to guess.)

I've already figured out about how many pieces I'm going to need to make, and I've drafted a few sketchy preliminary patterns. I have a dressform that's pretty close to my dimensions, so I'll probably be working with that for most of this process. My PLAN is to do paper templates, use those to make air-drying earthenware clay molds, and then work the leather over the clay molds. My friend and the interwebs tell me this should work, provided I make the molds a little deeper than I want the actual design to be, but I'm open to advice if you guys have better suggestions!

Here are some of my questions:

1. What is the best way to draft a pattern for the, ahh, curviest part of the breastplate? Breasts are curved, and paper is flat. With fabric, you solve this problem through darts and curved seams; obviously, leather is a little bit different. Should I draw the pattern out flat and expect it to stretch once I'm sculpting, or should I transfer it from the dressform to the paper while taking the curved surface into account?

2. Similarly: should my molds -- clay or otherwise -- be flat or curved to fit the contours of my body? I'm not really worried about this for the thigh pieces, bracers, and spaulders, or even the flat part of the breastplate, but I really don't know how I'm going to attack my boobs (TWSS). Should I do the design flat and then stretch it out over the dressform, or should I curve the armor FIRST and THEN mold the design?

3. That breastplate looks to be three pieces to me, but even with the screengrabs I've taken from an Xplay interview, it's really hard to tell. What do you all think?

4. I've read all kinds of stuff about the best weight to use for leather armor. I'm given to understand 6-10 oz. veg leather is the best. Is that right?

5. Should I be looking for green leather, or should I be looking for another, flatter color that I then paint or dye on my own?

I tweeted Felicia to ask if there were any other shots of the costume available; she wrote back (!) to say she'd try to release a few over the next couple of weeks, but "the next couple of weeks" is a scary timeline when Dragon*Con is only about 40 days away -- and I have a full-time job!

So if anyone wants to walk me through this, I would be super, super grateful. I realize this is a LOT of questions. Even a few tips or starting points would be immensely helpful to me. Thank you!

[TwinOaks]

To avoid a LOT of typing, I'll ask you to type "leather corset" in the search box at the top right hand corner. There are several threads that happen to cover a good bit of you molding/patterning questions.

You mention 6-10 oz leather......that's a pretty big difference. Each "ounce" of leather is 1/64th of an inch, so 10/64th = 5/32 inch. For wet formed leather, that is pretty thick. For reference a lot of us holster/sheath makers use 8oz leather for things that will be carried on the belt. 5-6oz for in the waistband concealed holsters. 16 oz (1/4 inch) for gun belts. It can get pretty stiff at those thicknesses, and I'm not sure you'd want to form something that thick for your bust due to ...ummm....chaffing.

One thing you definitely want to do is PM Johanna and tell her you want access to the 'adult' section. We don't have porn, but we do have leather corsets, etc., in there, and this project of yours appears to be along the same lines...in fact, some of the search results I mentioned above are in the 'adult' section.

For getting your pattern, perhaps the easiest way to do it is duct tape (wrap in saran wrap first). You can pretty much build the outfit, then cut it off and make cuts/darts as needed to flatten the pattern.

[Cavatica]

Thank you for the quick response!

I'll definitely take a look at the corsetry posts. I'd been doing searches for "armor" and "breastplate" and a couple other bits that yielded results, but I hadn't thought about going the corset route -- primarily because I do have a few leather corsets (one I made and one I bought), but they were both sewn, not molded. And, well, they're underbusts, so those won't really help me with bewbage issues.

I realize there's a pretty big difference between 6 and 10 oz -- that was just the range people seemed to recommend in general. What would you recommend?

There's another shot of Felicia's getup that seems to suggest the corset/breastplate thingie is lined with fabric (you can tell by ogling her left boob; there's definitely some beige, cottony-looking fabric lining the top), and I'm guessing that was specifically done to mitigate issues of, um, chafing.

I'll shoot Johanna a note! Thank you!

To avoid a LOT of typing, I'll ask you to type "leather corset" in the search box at the top right hand corner. There are several threads that happen to cover a good bit of you molding/patterning questions.

You mention 6-10 oz leather......that's a pretty big difference. Each "ounce" of leather is 1/64th of an inch, so 10/64th = 5/32 inch. For wet formed leather, that is pretty thick. For reference a lot of us holster/sheath makers use 8oz leather for things that will be carried on the belt. 5-6oz for in the waistband concealed holsters. 16 oz (1/4 inch) for gun belts. It can get pretty stiff at those thicknesses, and I'm not sure you'd want to form something that thick for your bust due to ...ummm....chaffing.

One thing you definitely want to do is PM Johanna and tell her you want access to the 'adult' section. We don't have porn, but we do have leather corsets, etc., in there, and this project of yours appears to be along the same lines...in fact, some of the search results I mentioned above are in the 'adult' section.

For getting your pattern, perhaps the easiest way to do it is duct tape (wrap in saran wrap first). You can pretty much build the outfit, then cut it off and make cuts/darts as needed to flatten the pattern.

[dirtclod]

I've never made anything like what she is wearing. But it looks to me like a bra and corset with a second piece added onto the corset. I would think that you could cut the bra part oversize some and mold it on dress form and then cut it out. Might work.

[TwinOaks]

After looking at the second pic of FD, I don't think it's leather. I'd guess it's neoprene, heat molded on a press.

BUT...you can still make YOURS out of leather.

[Art]

It is not apparent in the still shot, however in the video it is apparent that the whole bra/corset thing is made quite like a mask and appears to be one piece from the way it moves with her. They probably took a body mold, cast a dummy then built up the bra/corset on the dummy, then cast a mold from that. They could make many outfits from that mold and airbrush the color. To get something in leather that both fits and moves that well will be darned near impossible, much less tooling the darned thing. My suggestion would be to get a waterproof body form and drape a piece of wet leather over the form and bone it out to contour, after dry, cut and fit, then airbrush details, don't try to tool it, just paint or dye it. It will NOT be comfortable.

You really need to talk to studio makeup and costumers, not leather pounders.

Now the Boots, Belts, Pads, et al are right up our alley.

Art

Thank you for the quick response!

I'll definitely take a look at the corsetry posts. I'd been doing searches for "armor" and "breastplate" and a couple other bits that yielded results, but I hadn't thought about going the corset route -- primarily because I do have a few leather corsets (one I made and one I bought), but they were both sewn, not molded. And, well, they're underbusts, so those won't really help me with bewbage issues.

I realize there's a pretty big difference between 6 and 10 oz -- that was just the range people seemed to recommend in general. What would you recommend?

There's another shot of Felicia's getup that seems to suggest the corset/breastplate thingie is lined with fabric (you can tell by ogling her left boob; there's definitely some beige, cottony-looking fabric lining the top), and I'm guessing that was specifically done to mitigate issues of, um, chafing.

I'll shoot Johanna a note! Thank you!

[amuckart]

I've already figured out about how many pieces I'm going to need to make, and I've drafted a few sketchy preliminary patterns. I have a dressform that's pretty close to my dimensions, so I'll probably be working with that for most of this process. My PLAN is to do paper templates, use those to make air-drying earthenware clay molds, and then work the leather over the clay molds. My friend and the interwebs tell me this should work, provided I make the molds a little deeper than I want the actual design to be, but I'm open to advice if you guys have better suggestions!

Is the dress form curvy enough that you can saran-wrap it and mould directly onto there? That'd make life much easier. If it isn't, can you construct buildups for it?

Failing that, I'd make a papier-mâché body mould and cast it in plaster of paris which will dry harder and faster than clay will. Consider how you will line it and what with (trust me you will want to line it) and either adjust the cast from there with body filler or very thick plaster or form the leather over the lining.

From the second picture you linked to the parts are quite thick, I think TwinOaks is right, what they're using is probably moulded foam rubber. Not to say you can't do it with leather, you absolutely can but it will look slightly different because of the thickness. If you want to pursue the route of doing it in rubber rather than leather you're probably better to approach the shoulders and body armour as something more in line with a sculpted foam prosthetic than actual armour. Have a look at http://costumes.glit.../witchblade.htm for an idea.

Here are some of my questions:

1. What is the best way to draft a pattern for the, ahh, curviest part of the breastplate? Breasts are curved, and paper is flat. With fabric, you solve this problem through darts and curved seams; obviously, leather is a little bit different. Should I draw the pattern out flat and expect it to stretch once I'm sculpting, or should I transfer it from the dressform to the paper while taking the curved surface into account?

If you're going to mould it, don't stress too much about the pattern, get it roughly to shape and fix the details once it's formed over the mould.

2. Similarly: should my molds -- clay or otherwise -- be flat or curved to fit the contours of my body? I'm not really worried about this for the thigh pieces, bracers, and spaulders, or even the flat part of the breastplate, but I really don't know how I'm going to attack my boobs (TWSS). Should I do the design flat and then stretch it out over the dressform, or should I curve the armor FIRST and THEN mold the design?

You'll be distorting the leather quite dramatically to form the cups so curve then texture.

3. That breastplate looks to be three pieces to me, but even with the screengrabs I've taken from an Xplay interview, it's really hard to tell. What do you all think?

It's made to look like three parts, but it probably isn't. If you want it to move at all when you make it in leather, you'll want to make it as three parts though. The look won't be quite the same however.

Do you have any pictures of the back, or ideas on how you'll do that? (Given that

, it's probably a slingback )

4. I've read all kinds of stuff about the best weight to use for leather armor. I'm given to understand 6-10 oz. veg leather is the best. Is that right?

10oz would be great for armour if you were wanting something for SCA where someone was actually going to hit you. I wouldn't go over 6-7oz for this. much more than that and you'll have a heck of a time forming it.

5. Should I be looking for green leather, or should I be looking for another, flatter color that I then paint or dye on my own?

I'd get russet and dye it yourself, but something to note is that the colour of that is quite varied rather than a flat green all over so it won't be a simple single-application dye job, you'll want to airbrush it to get the colours right.

[Ladykahu]

I have done a bit of costuming (not leather, theatrical stuff) and I would do the bust in 5 parts, 3 front and you would probably get away with 2 on the back , also looking at the first picture it looks to me like its joined down the sides. If you read a bit more on breastplates there are some guys who are 'hinging' the armour a bit, a technique along those lines might make it more wearable. Or you might get away with a suede join down the sides for a bit more movement.

I guess with the molding the breastplate part.. it will depend on how large you are, if your a similar size then it should be ok. I would be doing a light foam layer then soft cloth if it was me wearing it to stop any rubbing issues. Or maybe di-sect an padded bra and stitch the cups into the lining.

Keep us posted, I am keen to see photos of how you get on.

and if you want real inspiration.. check out 'princes' armour.. his stuff is truly awe inspiring

Natalie

[Kevin]

When I enlarge the photos, it looks stitched to me. Maybe it's the pixelation from enlarging, but I think it's padded and quilted using lightweight garment leather and Frenched edges.

Kevin

[Cavatica]

Wow! These are all fantastic suggestions!

I'm aware the original piece probably isn't leather -- my pal Jeremy and I couldn't figure out, just looking at it, what it's really made out of, but neoprene seems as good a guess as any. Unfortunately, my neoprene press is off at the shop, so... ;> The other thing to consider is that this is supposed to be in the world of Dragon Age, so I think natural materials would look more "authentic" than foam and such.

It also seems like everyone's opinion is split as to whether the bodice (let's call it that, anyway) is either three pieces in front or one. It DOES look like a single piece to me as well, but as a few people have pointed out, that would be pretty damn uncomfortable. Three pieces (and possibly two in the back, depending on how I want to get IN to this thing) seem more manageable to me. Probably more visually interesting as well.

I do have a few other low-res shots of various other bits of the costume. They are:

Sideview, with a better view of the fastener used on the top pieces (I think this may be more to hold her daggers on her back than to hold the garment together)

Back, with... well, cloak (really just a hood) and daggers

Underarm, for a view of the spaulders and how they're attached (just a couple of straps under the arms)

There's also a shot of the hood in use, but that's not very informative about the bodice.

I did also notice that it appears the bodice is sewn together along the sides. I don't know how I want to achieve that, though I've seen some good suggestions here. Maybe just go old school and lace those bits together? If I DO go with three sections for the front part of the bodice, how would I attach them to one another in a nice, seamless way?

Thank you all for all your help so far!

Edited July 25, 2011 by Cavatica

[halafax]

Honestly it looks like three pieces. There is a waist cincher, or under bust corset, a piece to cover your midriff, and then a bra. If you want this not to chaff you might consider either stitching some kind of lining on the piece or wearing something under it. I make a lot of leather underbust corsets and waist cinchers. Everyone who wears them always puts them over something.

If you look around you can find a bikini pattern by macalls or whomever and use that for the top. The patters are made to be sewn true, but you can use the pattern to get the shape you want. Generally when making a bra pattern like that you want to make a triangle, and when you wet form it to your dress form you will get the rounded shape to it. Wet forming is not hard, just takes practice and a bit of elbow grease. If your dress dummy is similar in shape you to, remember that leather shrinks when you get it wet and let it dry. Its not a lot, but when dealing with items that cover unmentionables you want to make sure that nothing is too small. I know you are prolly going to want to go for accuracy but remember this, there is the five foot rule when costuming and it can save you a lot of head ache. If it were me, Id stitch a bra to the leather bra cups so that you dont have to worry about chafing, and remake the rest of the bra in the green leather.

Now if you are going to do the underbust corset piece as one piece, that is going to be a bit harder than it sounds. You are essentially making a huge waist belt. I typically make my cinchers in three pieces, just for ease of making them, and for comfort, but when is costuming comfortable? But if I was you and you were going to make the belt as one piece, Id lay out the pattern on leather, cut out the whole thing. Then get the pattern that you want to wet form into it, and press it. Though I think you could tool the leather to get the pattern, it would be faster than trying to wet form it. Also I think you ought to go with a lighter leather, maybe 3-4 oz leather, no more than 5. If you go heavier I think you are actually going to 1) make this harder on yourself, 2) lost some of the accuracy with the piece, 3) run into issues with attaching things. 4) make the piece heaver than it needs to.

The issues with heavy leather is you are limited in what you are going to be able to attach pieces together with. Other than tubular rivets, and copper post rivets, there are no long shanked rivets I know of. anything above a 6oz leather really makes it hard to attach things. Her armor honestly looks more like a fashion accessory than real armor. A lot of my friends in SCA who make their own armor use copper post rivets, and they use really heavy leather. Id go with a lighter leather to save yourself logistical issues with things after you get it cut out. You can tool lighter leathers, wet form it, or whatever. Just when it comes to ease of making the item it would be simpler to use no more than 5-6 oz leather. Thats typically what I use. I made the mistake of trying to use heavier leather for a cincher, I had to get longer grommets in order to finish the piece. The pattern in the piece makes it easier to hide the stitching, and you can use embroidery thread instead of sinew to sew with.

The hood seems pretty easy, just have to get some sueded leather, us e the bigger hole punch and get some of the leather cord that tandy sells and use that to sew it, check out your costume patterns for hooded cloaks and stuff. A basic hood is nothing more than a square with two sides sewn together, and then attached to the collar of a cloak.

Leather might be a natural material, but it does hold heat. Its going to be really hot this year, yes you are going to be wearing very little, but that waist piece and everything else is going to bake you pretty good.

Im sorry Im a bit all over the place, but Im just thinking as I go here.

If I was you, Id get cut out three separate pieces, the underbust corset, the part that covers the midriff, then the bra. I would then do your dying, and decide if you are going to tool, stamp, or whatever with the pattern on the piece, IF you are going to stamp or tool, then you are going to have to wet form and tool at the same time, or else you will lose the pattern cause the leather will get wet. You have to bind the leather to the dress dummy once you get to the point of wet forming it to fit your shape.

Here are a few examples of my work:

cincher 1

cincher 2

if you need any help drop me a line

either here or on gmail: halafax@gmail.com

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I always find it interesting that it is usually the guys who end up discussing the construction of corsets, etc..

As to air dried clay molds. You would need to seal them as once they get wet, they will start to get gooey again. The other problem is that greenware is also very brittle. Sealed plaster would e inexpensive, and easy to use. Just cast a block , then shape to fit. It carves really easy with basic tools.

Check out the Smooth On website. They make a line of products that would work for a project like this.

Good luck.

[amuckart]

It also seems like everyone's opinion is split as to whether the bodice (let's call it that, anyway) is either three pieces in front or one. It DOES look like a single piece to me as well, but as a few people have pointed out, that would be pretty damn uncomfortable. Three pieces (and possibly two in the back, depending on how I want to get IN to this thing) seem more manageable to me. Probably more visually interesting as well.

Having had firsthand experience of both armour and corsets, I'd put fastenings on both sides. That way you can join the front and back by the shoulder straps and pull it on over your head. If the dagger harness is held onto the front of the armour with snaps, that could well be a good part of what holds it closed. Given the lack of obvious side fastenings on the costume one way you could approach it would be to treat it like a bulletproof vest and just have velcro on the inside.

Sideview, with a better view of the fastener used on the top pieces (I think this may be more to hold her daggers on her back than to hold the garment together)

Back, with... well, cloak (really just a hood) and daggers

I agree on the side straps being for the daggers. You can see them go round in the back view. That makes me wonder if what I originally took to be rivets in the side view are actually snaps. I can't see any obvious closure to the sides at all.

Underarm, for a view of the spaulders and how they're attached (just a couple of straps under the arms)

I'd bet they're also attached at the top by a single flexible strap onto the shoulder straps of the body armour otherwise they'd slide down. If you look in the hood shot you can see that the straps are loose around her upper arm, they're just there to make sure the spaders move with her arms.

There's also a shot of the hood in use, but that's not very informative about the bodice.

Those huge lacing holes do tell us that it never rains in the DragonAge universe though

I did also notice that it appears the bodice is sewn together along the sides. I don't know how I want to achieve that, though I've seen some good suggestions here. Maybe just go old school and lace those bits together? If I DO go with three sections for the front part of the bodice, how would I attach them to one another in a nice, seamless way?

If I were going to do this in parts I'd suspend the layers off of internal straps. That's the normal technique for layered armour you want to be able to collapse slightly. Have a look at this picture to see what I mean Having said that the side views make this look a lot less like three pieces.

Something I came across while searching google for that picture is this ebay auction which I have to share because maybe if I inflict the horror on someone else it'll get out of my head

Those pictures are actually worth looking at because as near as I can tell the red parts of the breastplate are all one piece and so are a good example of what you can mould if you've got the right leather.

[Cavatica]

Hey kids! Just wanted to give a quick update on where I'm kind of planning to go with this, and ask a few more questions.

The other day, one of my friends helped me make a duct tape dressform of my body. Well, let me amend that; I already HAVE a pretty good, standard dressform, but it wasn't EXACTLY to my dimensions, and it's a little wobbly and unsupported on its own. So we wrapped me up in duct tape, cut it off, and then put it over the existing dressform to make the whole thing more stable. I stuffed bits and pieces of it with batting to fill it out where appropriate. It's not perfect, but it's more solid than either duct tape or the dressform would have been on their own.

My PLAN is to build a mold on top of this -- probably with air-drying clay (because I'm going to want to be able to build up like a half-inch-thick base and then carve down into it) -- and then cover that with those nifty plaster strips I keep reading about.

After that, I'm not sure what I should do. If the plaster strips dry hard enough, can I mold my leather right over that, still on the form? I suppose the problem with that would be that it'd be a bit thicker than my natural dimensions are. Would it be better to pop the plaster strips off once they're dry, use them as a negative mold that I would fill up with the liquid stuff (or, I dunno, maybe expanding foam?), and THEN mold the leather on top of THAT?

Edited July 31, 2011 by Cavatica

[halafax]

Remember that leather shrinks a bit when you wet form it, so if its a bit bigger its not going to hurt your piece long run.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

A couple of things.

What is this air dry clay that you mention? Is it regular pottery clay that is just air dried---greenware, or something else?

Plaster strips like a cast is made of? The ones that you cannot get wet? If you use them , you would have to seal them from moisture.

Why not use something firm like plaster instead of batting to fill the gaps between the duct tape, and dress form?

I would say that you want the form to be as close as possible to you. The leather cannot shrink any smaller than the solid form underneath it, as long as it remains on the form till dry.

[Cavatica]

I'm experimenting with self-hardening Stonex clay -- it was the only thing the local art store (the one worth a damn) carried that was even close to the right kind of clay.

Here's what I've got right now:

Now, let me say that I COMPLETELY realize a lot of the fine detail will be lost in casting -- or, if not in casting, in the leather molding itself. I exaggerated a lot of the design for that reason; I cannot conceive of how I'm going to get 6 oz (or, hell, even 4 oz) leather into all the finer gaps. I imagine I'll have to go back and tool them myself. However, if I can get even a few of those details to impress, then maybe I'll have a good guide to work with for tooling? This whole thing is just one insane experiment. If anyone has any suggestions at this point, please share! I've been sculpting and carving for six hours (maybe seven) and I am very, very tired. Time for bed!

[CueroCrazy]

I have a few ideas for you. I'm new to leatherwork myself, but I've also been studying mold making and in particular how to make plaster casts for making leather masks. I think you are headed in the right direction. What I would do at this point is make a plaster waste mold of the torso form. Here's the basic process: http://www.peterfors...cess_waste.html. You can get a big bag of plaster relatively cheap at Lowe's/Home Depot or maybe through a ceramics store. You might be able to put a thin layer of clay over your figure form and then sculpt the armor in clay on top of the form. Then you can apply the plaster to make the waste mold. Remove the waste mold once dry, and make a plaster cast of the torso form "wearing" the armor. Then stretch a lightweight wet veg tan leather over the armor portion (somehow tacking or fastening it so that it's very tight). Using tools you can force the leather into the shape of the armor beneath it. Keep working the leather until it dries and it will keep its shape. I got this method from a cool book about making masks (http://www.amazon.co...k/dp/1558701664) in leather. I lucked into a cheap used copy, but you might try to find it through your library if you don't want to buy it. This is an Italian mask making techique that uses a cow horn hammer (not available at Lowe's haha) and small wooden tool called a sticketta to force the leather to take the shape and detail of the plaster beneath. Here is a page where a person used this technique to make a mask, but I'm sure you can imagine how it could be used in your project: http://www.wastekeep...bumName=album35. I would imagine doing this process twice (for front and back of the armor) and any other shoulder pieces, etc., trimming up the leather pieces and then sewing or fastening them together.

A different technique that somebody already mentioned is using silicone based products to cast the armor from the form. It would probably be more expensive, but this is how Hollywood would do it (and maybe the people who created the costume you are replicating). Check out the Batgirl costume on this page: http://www.smooth-on...p?galleryid=416. They might have cast the armor in neoprene which has different formulations from rigid to semi-rigid to flexible. It is easily painted, lightweight, and very durable.

At any rate, good luck on your project! Keep us posted on your progress!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

You can bone in some of the tight details. Look at some of the holsters that guys make on the forum, they have details that have been boned in. The bones used can be made of bone, plastic, wood, etc.

Don't know if it is just me, but I don't see the last picture you posted.

Another way to make a quick mold of your dress form would be to wrap it in Saran wrap, then spray it with expanding foam that you can get at the hardware store. That will give you a sturdy enough mold to pour your plaster/clay into.

[niftycurly]

A suggestion for comfort: Look up trapunto, aka italian stuffed quilting. Usually done with fabric but there are medieval and renaissance examples done in thin leathers.

You could avoid all the clay molding and wet work as well as have a very comfortable, albeit warm, costume if you use lambskin as the outer layer. Accent the depressed stitching lines with airbrush and I think you'd get very close to your pictures.

[JMcNulty]

Did u ever finish this project? How did it turn out?