A Dale Demo

[Dale]

My local guild meets at the Tandy store in Colorado Springs. At our gathering tonight, I decided to tool a sample using the tools in the store. The result is the attached photo - it is low res, but it is representative of the actual piece. The leather size is 3" x 5".

One of the reasons I did this was to dispel the myths that abound that you can't get a good carving with the entry level tools. Every tool used on the sample below came off the rack (except for the mallet and swivel knife which were previously used by students in the store). I would encourage newcomers not to be afraid of entry level tools. If you're unable to figure out how to get a tool off the rack to work the way you want or can't get a carving to look the way you want, ask a more experienced person to help figure it out (how else would you know you're not just using the tool wrong rather than having a poorly shaped tool?). I know there are challenges with some of the production runs these days. I also know they're being addressed. But I'd really hate to think we're running newcomers off by telling them they need a bunch of $75 tools when they can get the same result with a $10 tool.

Incidentally, I would encourage those looking for modeling tools to check out TLFs new line. Some of them could use a little work coming right off the shelf (same as 20 years ago), but they are much improved over the most recent line.

Dale

[Don101]

i agree with you the tools you get from tandy are great for beginners as for the more advanced artist although some tools from lets just say the pro line without adverteising are crisper, i must have around 70 tools that came from tandy or the LF and they suit my needs i doo have around 12 or so tools that cost at an average $50-60 each because tandy or the LF didnt make that stamp, i dont think that a beginer would want to invest thousands of $ just to get started so we all can be greatfull of the tools that cost around 10-20 bucks. Don

P.S the picture looks fantastique

[Dan Hammons]

I agree! If you can't drive a nail with a $5 hammer a $80 hammer ain't gonna help!! A good set of the older 20-30 tools we use the most can be put together off of ebay without having to take out a loan if that is something a person wants to do but the bottom line is that Craft Tools are still resonably priced and a good value when you compare them to the carving Dale has posted. Would $50-$80 tools have mave made his carving 5 to 8 times better ?

[Regis]

Dale,

It was a great idea to do this example but, I do have a couple questions. What would you expect from the best tools compared to off-the-shelf tools? Clearer detail, work faster, ease of use, life of tool, pride of ownership, impression that simply could only be made with better tool, etc? If you did the same project with the best tools, what would actually expect to look different (assuming only same amount ot time spent)?

I asked because I plan to replace only a few of my most used tools with top quality. I have already got a Henley knife and it has improved my cuts (cuz it's smoother, fits better, and was sharper to begin with) but, I don't know what to expect from other tools.

Thank again for the topic and demo.

Regis

[Dale]

Dale,

It was a great idea to do this example but, I do have a couple questions. What would you expect from the best tools compared to off-the-shelf tools? Clearer detail, work faster, ease of use, life of tool, pride of ownership, impression that simply could only be made with better tool, etc? If you did the same project with the best tools, what would actually expect to look different (assuming only same amount ot time spent)?

I asked because I plan to replace only a few of my most used tools with top quality. I have already got a Henley knife and it has improved my cuts (cuz it's smoother, fits better, and was sharper to begin with) but, I don't know what to expect from other tools.

Thank again for the topic and demo.

Regis

Regis,

I don't think there's any clear answer to your question(s). Different people buy them for different reasons. Speaking only for myself, I probably started laying out big bucks because of ego, the sales pitch, and ignorance. That's not to say I don't have some great tools, but I also have some expensive tools that I don't use. Today, I would have to say I go after the more expensive ones because of consistency (you can use like tools of different size the same way each time, and like face textures, such as cross-hatch, are consistent between tools) and ease of use (it's easier to get the look you want if the tool is shaped well to begin with).

Dale

[abn]

To take Regis's questions one step further, I wonder if anyone has ever had a customer who noticed whether they were using a $5 beveler or a $50 one? I consider myself a reasonably experienced leatherworker, and there's no way I'd be able to take, for example, a carving done by Clay B. and identify whose tools were used where in the design.

My point is that more expensive tools might make a craftsman feel better, but I doubt the customer is going to notice...

Just my 2 cents, Alex

[Billy P]

To add to what Alex and the others said, almost all of my carving tools are crafttools except a few Hidecrafters Pro series I bought in the last year to year and a half. As far as the Hidecrafters tools go, don't know if we'll be able to get them anymore. It's been my observation that when a company is bought out that if it is going to be continued, that the new owners want to keep on rolling. When Tandy got involved with Mid Continent, they didn't miss very many if any strokes in the business. I wish that I was better at carving and leather work in every other part too, but as it is I just do what I can because I love it. I've been working at it on and off since about 74 and have never had anybody wonder about the tools I use. I'm sure that with some tools that they will make some difference in the look as well as being easier to use. When most people move into there homes they don't know if the nails were driven in with a $5 hammer or a air powered nail gun, same with leather they ain't gonna know if I beveled a line with my old .95 B701 from Tandy or a $65 or $125 Bob Beard beveler. Plus they don't care as long as it looks good to them. While it's a given that the quality of the BB, Barry King, Hackbarth, etc is better the people that buy what little I sell won't know the difference. I hope that with as many people that know what they are talking about telling TLF and any other supplier of leather tools about the quality of some of the stuff that they will improve, but everything takes time. I think that one thing we can do is talk to the Tandy managers, email Jim Linnell, and anyone else that you can think of an let them know how we feel. Like has already been said, a lot more people might be interested in starting in leatherwork in they are informed that for a minimal cost for tools that they can do some neat stuff instead of being told all the time about the 50,60,75, dollars and up per tool that some cost. I'm saying that the better tools are not worth the price, but being real about it they would be a huge expenditure for somebody that might not even know if leatherworking is a hobby/lifestlye they will be doing for the rest of their life. What I wanted to say and get across I've probably handled badly, but I'm trying. I think that a newcomer to leatherwork should try out swivel knives and get the one that feels the best and works the best for them, if it's a 10.95 Tandy or a $175 set from Bob Beard, then so be it. The rest if they can learn to do good pleasing work with Crafttools then if they get the better tools later, only they will probably know the difference. Sorry about being so long winded, but that's the way I feel about the tools. Just about everytime I/we turn around we're hearing that if you want to do really good work you have to spend huge dollars buying so and so's tools, and that is not so. Al Stolhman did better work with pocket knife and filed nails than most peoples work that I've seen using all the other tools. Bye for now and I'm outta here. Billy P

[robert]

I use a collection of tandy, barry king, jay gore, a chuck smith or two, along with some handmade tools... here are few of my thoughts.

Do beginners need great tools, or just will just anything do? I am not a fan of making beginners think they need a bunch of high dollar tools. However, some of the really cheap tools are difficult to use. I have taught classes where students had inexpensive tools that just didnt work very well... they were too big for the patterns that are popular today and werent shaped correctly (bevelers that are so flat they wont walk, or pearshaders that have edges and leave tool marks). If a tool is hard to use, it will not encourage the user to continue with this craft. SO... beginners need some "happy medium"... procrafter tools are an option, or as somebody mentioned above, buying used off the internet is a good one as well. I have craftools from the 60s that are every bit as good as anything in my tool rack. We need to help beginners find that happy medium.

Can a customer tell the difference? I dont know, but once your work reaches a certain level of quality, improvement comes in small increments - evenly spaced stitches, nice finishes, smooth edges, stamping with crisp, clear impressions... - and your customer notices the total package. So good tools are a part of the puzzle, maybe even an important part, but not the only part.

The old masters didnt have stainless steel tools... but they had (have) hours upon hours upon hours of practice... that is unquestionably more important than tool quality. The best advice I ever got was to spend 10 minutes a night practicing with my swivel knife... for the next year, I would sit and watch tv and cut circles, lines, etc for 10 minutes, probably 5 nights each week...

One further note... in my mind, one upgrade that i suggest even for beginners is to get a good swivel knife blade. Stock, cheap blades are hard to use... and what is the most frustrating and difficult part of this craft? Swivel knife control! A cheap knife is ok, but a ceramic or henley blade allows a beginner to see improvement faster if they practice.

So... thats my nickels worth... good discussion...

[Seasoned Warrior]

Using the $5 hammer v the nail gun analogy. The nail gun makes you more money than the $5 hammer. I can frame much faster with a nail gun and therefore I can put up a lot more wood and make more money. My criteria for tools usually is that is it faster, is it going to make it look better, will I make more money with it. That's what I am in business for. Don't get me wrong, I like nice tools, I like the feel and the idea of having a quality tool but one has to determine why one is buying the tool. If it is to make money than you need the most efficient tool for the buck, if its for yourself well that is another story. By the way I have some unbelievable tools made from the latest and finest radio frequency, controlled atmosphere smelted unobtainium that I'll sell you for the price of your first home and they are cheap at twice the price.

[Mike Phelps]

There is an analogy among competitive shooters that applies to this"You can shoot your way into the Masters Class with a stock factory weapon but to be competitive at that level you'll need to have it accurized". Nearly all my stamping tools are Craftool and I can do decent work with them. Do I have complaints about them, you betcha by the bucket load. The shafts are too small, the knurlings not deep and sharp enough to get a good grip, the tops of some are radiused, the tooling on one in may be fine and almost nonexistent on the other and that darn X513 was shaped like a parallelogram instead of a nice bowtie [just try doing a splayed basketweave with that thing. spent hours trying to figure that one out before I took the files to the ends of it, now it's short but usable].

Now that I have several years experience using these tools I know what to look for and I'm not shy about taking the files, hones, lappiing and polishing compounds to them so they will at least work in a satisfactory manner.

I can't hardly wait until I have enough money in my pocket to make the two hour drive South to HideCrafters and check out the Pro Series tools they have. I hope that they will be able to continue to give us an affordable alternative to Tandy/LF/Craftool.

Are the Bob Beard and other Professional tools worth the money they charge? You bet they are. Can I justify spending that kind of money on one? Rarely.

[Billy P]

I think that I may have given the wrong impression as to how I feel about the more expensive tools. I basically think that they are well worth the money. Even my Hidecrafters Pro series are a lot different than the Crafttools. My Hidecrafters tools, even though they only cost 10 to 15 each make a really good impression. I was just saying that if you try to tell a beginner that they need to spend 5 or 6 hundred dollars on a basic 7 set of tools that is going to be a fast turnoff. If they learn to use the cheaper tools in the right way, then when they are able to up grade, they can tell the difference even if a recipient of there work can't. Robert the analogy about the hammer and nail gun was just that. I too had rather use the nail gun, but a person looking at a new roof on his house can't tell if the shingles are nailed down with a hammer one at a time of if they are shot in with the nail gun, ratatattat. I have been seeing the comments about Hidecrafters and the new owners, and am wondering if they will still carry the Pro series tools or not and one other thing wondering if they will still let guild members get the wholesale discount as they did before. Until later with kindest regards Billy P

[Rawhide]

I visited hidecrafters or now HideCo, the other day. The Pro Crafters tools will still be available from what I can tell. It doesn't look like they are reducing inventory, just adding new items to their inventory. The Pro Crafters line of tools are basically knockoffs of Bob Beards tools. I have a couple of bevelers and camo tools that I use often, but the rest of my collection is Craftool. I usually have to "clean up" a lot of tool marks using the craftools, which is not a problem, but it does take more time to use them. I spoke to a lady that works at hidecrafters who said she would have quit leatherworking completely if she hadn't bought some of Bob Beards bevelers. She was just frustrated with the way her tooling looked.

So I say start out with the cheap tools. If you like working leather, you may want to upgrade to speed or increase your quality. I am probably going to buy a swivel knife from Bob Beard, and maybe a blade, but for now I'll stick with the hidecrafters pro crafters tools for often used tools, and craftools for the every now-and-then tools.

Marlon

[ClayB]

I think this is a really good discussion and a lot of you have made good points on both sides of it. I have mentioned custom tool makers in several of my posts, but I never intended for anyone to get the idea that I think you have to have custom made tools in order to do good work. I think Tandy tries to keep Craftool brand tools as reasonalby priced as possible so that people can afford to buy them and learn to do leatherwork. I also know they are working on making them more consistant and trying to make sure they are shaped correctly to do the intended jobs. If and when you need custom tools is a choice every carver needs to make for themselves.

Could you tell if I did the same pattern with Craftools and then with custom made tools? Good question. Probably not. But there are some effects that would take a lot longer to achieve with the Craftools.

Use the tools you can afford, practice as much as you can, and have fun. That's why I do leathercraft.

[steveb]

I like tools, I really like good tools that work well. I am not a coveter/collector - I am simply a user.

I have been upgrading (jueschke, beard, hackbarth) the tools that i use most frequently and my goal in upgrading is to simply have the best tools for a given job. My goal is also to own only tools that see frequent use. So everytime i get a new tool, i look to take at least one tool from my rack for the ebay/give-it-away pile. So the consequence for me is a small rack of high quality tools that see regular use -perfect for me.

As an aside - I have noticed that "boutique" stamps tend to stamp more clearly, feel better to the hand and have a special something that makes a good design sing..they will not make up for poor technique or a lousy design..at least for me...lol

steveb

[GAP]

That nail gun anology just didn't work for me, but my carpentry skills are limited to an axe, chainsaw, and a BFH.

Would you purchase a $20 nail gun that delivered the nails at 3/4 depth, and had to come back and finish them..., or leave them cuz most wouldn't notice, or the $200 one that put them in right every time?

I've got lots of homemade tools, as well as custom tools, and I've still got a couple of craftools that are favored for very singular jobs.

You have to use what you are comfortable with. You are the main person to satisfy, and establish what you do, as well as how well you do it! Your pricing should reflect that as well?

Wanna hire me for some finish carpentry? I'll guarantee a rustic look!

[Vikefan]

I visited hidecrafters or now HideCo, the other day. The Pro Crafters tools will still be available from what I can tell. It doesn't look like they are reducing inventory, just adding new items to their inventory. The Pro Crafters line of tools are basically knockoffs of Bob Beards tools. I have a couple of bevelers and camo tools that I use often, but the rest of my collection is Craftool. I usually have to "clean up" a lot of tool marks using the craftools, which is not a problem, but it does take more time to use them. I spoke to a lady that works at hidecrafters who said she would have quit leatherworking completely if she hadn't bought some of Bob Beards bevelers. She was just frustrated with the way her tooling looked.

So I say start out with the cheap tools. If you like working leather, you may want to upgrade to speed or increase your quality. I am probably going to buy a swivel knife from Bob Beard, and maybe a blade, but for now I'll stick with the hidecrafters pro crafters tools for often used tools, and craftools for the every now-and-then tools.

Marlon

Hey Marlon,

Have you checked out or looked at the Leather Wranglers swivel knives?

From what I've read they are very good; here's their link: http://www.leatherwr...m/products.html

Vikefan

[Vikefan]

I like tools, I really like good tools that work well. I am not a coveter/collector - I am simply a user.

I have been upgrading (jueschke, beard, hackbarth) the tools that i use most frequently and my goal in upgrading is to simply have the best tools for a given job. My goal is also to own only tools that see frequent use. So everytime i get a new tool, i look to take at least one tool from my rack for the ebay/give-it-away pile. So the consequence for me is a small rack of high quality tools that see regular use -perfect for me.

As an aside - I have noticed that "boutique" stamps tend to stamp more clearly, feel better to the hand and have a special something that makes a good design sing..they will not make up for poor technique or a lousy design..at least for me...lol

steveb

Although I haven't been that active in the tooling area of leatherwork compaired to other aspects, I totally agree with you. A lot of the Tandy tools I've purchased in the past few years, some I am keeping because I use them, others I am going to give to the BSA or GSA (Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts of America), simply because they are basic tools and I don't use them anymore or don't like them like I did when I bought them.

I too have been upgrading when able like I did this past winter.

Vikefan