a question about in-skirt rigging

[Traveller]

If I understand correctly, in-skirt rigging is the best way to avoid bulk under your leg, giving you better contact with the horse and making it easier to drap your leg around the horse.

But does it sacrifice strength at all? Leather stretches and I can imagine the skirt leather stretching in a not-so-good way. Other rigging styles have separate pieces of leather which can stretch without altering the shape of the skirt. Or at least, that's how I imagine it could happen.

Am I right?

Thanks in advance for everyone's input!

-- Joanne

[Tosch]

You might find useful information about inskirt and its strength here http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=906.

Tosch

[Steve Brewer]

Joanne,Inskirt rigging saddles are just as strong as any other.They all need to be put in right.I just got a saddle to repair with a skirt rig,it needs wool skins and leathers.The rigging is still sound.This saddle has had alot of big cattle roped and a lot of calves branded out of it.I built the saddle 26 yrs. ago.

Steve

[Shelly]

I've been riding mostly inskirt saddles, for about 35 years - roped in them, reined, all-around, etc. I make anything the rider asks for - it's a personal decision...some are sold on inskirts, (they are the least bulk, and the lightest overall), while others insist on flat plates or some variety of dee ring setup. Most of these I put in are 7/8 dropped, and I have to know how they ride, and whether they want a twist on the fenders - I have to adjust my skirts and the neck on the fenders, as well as the fender length and stirrup leather length, to accomodate those that are short legged, but I always ask if they are the only one riding it or sharing, and what the other inseam length(s) may be. In all these years, repairing and building, listening to what other makers have to say as well as paying close attention to what I'm repairing and why that is, my conclusions are that the inskirt is the least bulky, and, if put in properly, meaning that the overlay and the front area of the skirt are both of the best part of the hide when laid out, you will have little stretch, and much security - looking at the drawing of the inskirt that Keith put on these threads about this subject, if you will take into consideration that most inskirts envelope the tree within the skirt, like a 'sandwich', and, if made properly - ie; as Keith mentions about making sure the skirt drops down X inches, taking into consideration the rider(s), then it stands to reason that it's going to be the easiest design for least bulk, and ease of movement.

The scariest riggings that I get in this shop for repairs are various makers full double saddles...a few are consistently made from the heavier leather in the butt, and it makes me appreciate these guys alot - this shows me they are conscientious about how they built the saddle...regardless, so many are installed with only, at best, 4 screws in the rigging to hold it (compared to being 'enveloped' within the skirts) - the only way I will do a full double or drop rig is by fitting it 'full' over the bar pads, and it will be trimmed after it is screwed/nailed in, then, when the skirts go on for good, the rigs, front an rear, (these are fit completely around the bars as well - and I've seen a few that were 'joined' together across the top of the bars at the rear and sewn in), then I will sew them in, two needles, on each end of a 1/4 in sewing tape - I use a #5 stitch wheel, and will stitch every other mark, just as you stitch a horn, from the dee up as far as I can go. I think this is the only way to do these and have them be strong enough - instead of just the 4 screws holding your dees and latigos on the saddle, you are securing this whole riggin to the skirts, much as you would with an inskirt - you still have more bulk than an inskirt, and more weight. Another thing I do, (which adds more weight as well), is to install a connector (wear leather) over the rigging - it is nailed in at the base of the swell, the bottom edge is even with the bottom edge of the rigging, and the strap goes around the rear dee if it's a full double, or up to the tree behind the stirrup leather slot if it's a dropped rig, with a tab that secures it around the back of the front dee. I've had to explain to my clients that if they would like to keep the saddle in good repair, and not pay a bigger repair bill than needed, then they need to keep these connector straps checked - when they wear thru, it's time to replace them - a $35.00 fix. If I have to replace the front rigs because they let it go - it's a $175.00 fix! Because this style of rigging sits on top of the skirts, regardless of stitched in or not, they will be getting wear every time the fenders are brought forward over them at the back edge - when I get these in for repairs, usually they are only one 'fresh colt' away from a disaster! I've seen more dee rings that have worn thru at the back, then ripped almost completely out of the saddle, as well as having stretched and pulled down and forward, in these saddles than any inskirts - biggest thing with inskirts is to keep an eye on the wear of the rivets - I've had to replace rivets and/or restitch (stitch grooves that are deep are important to get the stitches below the level of the leather) - and it's usually a good number of years down the line for this! My husband has an old 'cowboy' rig, built on an Assn. tree, inskirt - this saddle is 26 years old - I've replaced stirrup leathers over the years, re-covered the rawhide binding on the 4 1/2" straight up cantle, and on the horn lip, and a few other sundry repairs - very little compared to other saddles that see the amount of day to day work this wood has! For all you cowboys out there, my husband would rather cowboy than train horses - he is 'old school' - rode the rough string on all the ranches he worked on in his younger days, just because it paid an extra 20.00 a month - he onlyworked for ranches that had a wagon and a real cowboy crew, that did everything horseback - such as the Matadors, the RO's, etc - up North, in Calif, TX, and in AZ - finally settled on AZ as his 'home territory' - he has albums full of pix that he took with a pocket size camera -starting ranch colts, pix of smooth mouthed 'snaffle-bit' horses, packing salt with a string of mules or horses, cows, steers, bulls tied to trees, loading them into half-top trailers on their sides, (skidding them in, basically, by running the rope forward to a trailer ball attached far enough forward on the trailer to pull them in with the horse)...also pix of some wild ones being necked to burros and turned loose - the burros come home to base camp for the sweet feed in a few days, and they bring the cow in with...lots of good stories of hunting feral stock in the mountains, roping, tying them down, tipping horns, branding, etc - some that were wild 10+ yr old steers, and a few of those where he roped an antelope, deer, bobcat, skunk, etc...the reason for my 'prattling', is to be able to give some idea of what one of his saddles would be subjected to day in and day out - he likes inskirt rigs the best, then his choice is a flat plate, if well made, then a dee ring rig saddle, and so on...he's ridden old centerfire ring rig saddles in his day as well - and he says the least bulk is always the inskirt, and he has had no problems roping and tying down any cow over the years that he needed to doctor in an inskirt saddle...in his tack room now the majority is inskirt saddles - he also has a flat plate rigged Wade, and a dee rigged saddle...as I said, it all comes down to what the rider/customer is used to, as well as what they are around alot of - on those AZ ranches, a cowboy had hired on once that came from up North - romal reins, silver bit, slick fork saddle, and a long rope - it didn't take about 2 weeks of working that rocky, brushy country, with everything that bites, stings, or sticks ya, and he had himself a rough out saddle, tied hard and fast, and bulldog (or 'Monkey-nosed') taps. Everything has a purpose and a reason for being that way - it's mostly necessity, and style is not necessarily a consideration over form to function - at least when horses have a 'real job' and are a tool, not a high bred, hot house commodity, as they are in today's show horses...my husband can certainly appreciate a long rope, the how and why of it's proper use, and the years it would take to make a bridle horse in the old traditions - snaffle-bit, hackamore, two-reining, and so on...but that's not very practical on the ranches he worked - you would scar up new saddles in a few days so bad they looked old, closed reins would get caught on thick brush - thus injuring the horse's mouth, etc, same brush could go thru the stirrups if not protected, and that flank cinch is there to help take the jerk of a heavy brute on the other end, and so on...and he's always rode a custom saddle!

So, I am in complete agreement with Keith Seidel, Mr. Brewer, etc - inskirt is our 1st choice!

[Shelly]

I would also add - a dee rigged saddle is easiest and quickest to install - the inskirt, which I build the most of, is harder - needs the best leather, and, the way I do them, more leather is needed for these than the other...

[greg gomersall]

I will also agree that an in-skirt rigging properly installed is as strong as anything and offers a little less bulk. The main drawback I see to an in-skirt rig is with someone who rides alot and sweats his horses out on a daily basis. Over time due to excessive amount of sweat being absorbed by the skirts the leather will deterioate making the rigging a little more vulnerable. But there are not many people around these days that sweat a horse out like that consistantly. Greg

[Traveller]

Thanks for your replies, everyone. I really appreciate the level of expertise on this board, as well as the generosity you all show in sharing it.

Shelly, it sounds like a properly-built saddle with anything other than in-skirt rigging is going to add quite a lot of extra leather. Any idea how much extra weight it adds?

And thanks, Tosch, for the link to a previous rigging thread. In it, tnestes claims that he's had more in-skirt repairs than other types in his shop; could that possibly be because they're either production line saddles, where we can assume (for the most part) that there isn't the same attention to detail as on a custom saddle, or that there are also inferior custom saddles out there? (Gotta happen, though not from you folks, I'm sure!) Shelly remarked that she sees more D-ring repairs than in-skirt.

Great stories about your husband's ranch life, Shelly. It sounds like he sure puts a saddle through its paces!

Thanks again, everyone. Much appreciated!

-- Joanne

[Tosch]

When the saddlemakers here refer to an inskirt rig they refer to a well constructed one in which each of the top and the bottom skirt is one piece of leather (put together correcty). While a poorly constructed skirt is pieced together as Verlane's drawing shows. I have seen also seen lots of production saddles where the top skirt only consists of the front part just covering the hardware and then sewn to the bottom skirt, so it also does not pull down the back end of the tree at all.

Tosch

Edited August 1, 2008 by Tosch

[Steve Brewer]

Shelly,What I said was there is nothing wrong with a Skirt Rigging.I really Like flat plate or a skirt rigged saddle.My most ordered saddles are flat plates and ring riggings set at 3/4 or 7/8s

Steve

[Shelly]

Greg,

You can be sure that my husband has sweated thru a few - even now, with the day to day training, he tries to rotate saddles, as some of these studs he's training/showing take extra riding/time - but with the heat/humidity of summer, it's pretty much inevitable, regardless. He rotates thruout the day - he really appreciates well made gear, and tries to take care of it. Yes, I agree that if an inskirt were sweated thru every day, not able to dry out, it may cause some stretch, but I don't think I've ever seen it personally - maybe Keith has, or someone else here on this thread - taking into account the quality of the saddle to start with - it makes me wonder if any here has seen a well made inskirt that had failed (stretched badly or rigging plates/dees pulled out)...

Joanne,

I don't have a real number for you, other than it may be 5 lbs or less - once I have these rigged out, and ready to ship, not a huge difference, really - I can tell you that I can cover all of them for shipping weight by plugging in 42 lbs for total weight on the online ship forms - I've never had any additional charges to my account because of being over that, and I line the box with scrap woolskin, bubble wrap over the horn, put it in upside down, and may have a breastcollar and or headstall, possibly some reins, with it...the old colt saddle mentioned above - Assn. tree, has a nightlatch around the swell, a heavy, one piece, shaped breastcollar, a 4" flank, etc - I know without a doubt that it will be one of the heavier saddles in his tack room - I've saddled a few over the years for him with it!! But, it does not bind him up when he rides, which he attributes to the inskirt...

I also think that it depends on the area you are in, as to what you see more of for repairs - we have a lot of cutting horse ranches/training operations here, and the dropped rigs and full doubles, hard seats, have been pretty popular for most of the last 15 yrs - I'd expect to see more flatplates up North, and so on... In the mid-70's to mid-80's, lots of cutting saddles were full double, very flat groundseats, (as flat as could be made - caused some problems for some horses when that strainer wouldn't clear their withers) and a lot more padded seats than I do now. I've made a few new ones now with padded seats, and just took another order for that type of cutting saddle. These will have a moderate amount of lift to the strainer - so I think more 'middle of the road' now...new saddle orders are running about 50/50 for inskirt or dee rigged saddles...I don't care, really, what they ask for, as I know better than to question what these people like, or have gotten comfortable with, over the years - hey, if that's what works for them, I'm not going to say that my opinions count more than theirs! I am usually dealing with owners/trainers/ranchers that have been successful on their choice of whatever - if I am questioned about rigging choice, I'll voice my opinion. The important thing is that they know I don't 'only' make one style, and can accomodate them, whatever their taste is...I have turned down work over the years that wasn't worth doing, (repairs, mostly), and only once have I turned away business from someone in this industry that wanted me to build a saddle...

I have really enjoyed this forum - I feel I've learned some things that I can find useful to me, as well as some that aren't - but always learning something from these ongoing threads!

[Shelly]

Shelly,What I said was there is nothing wrong with a Skirt Rigging.I really Like flat plate or a skirt rigged saddle.My most ordered saddles are flat plates and ring riggings set at 3/4 or 7/8s

Steve

Sorry, I stand corrected - I would like to say that the flat plate is my personal 'second choice' - this is so much better than a full double or dropped rigged saddle, in my opinion! Have made some of these for the ranchers around - have you ever made any 'seat riggings'?? They are an interesting saddle - I think I saw something on the threads about them before it all crashed...I've only seen a few, and again, from talking to the cowboy that had a few of them, they are very popular in his area of the country - and I've just not seen them too far outside of that...he did admit that they could pinch at the slot on the seat, but overall, he liked them fine...I'd asked him if he'd ever tried a flat plate, but he hadn't...attached is a pic of his saddle - note the seat jockeys are lined with a heavy liner, as a flat plate would be done, but I could see where this type of rigging would reduce the bulk under your leg by 1 thickness, anyway...also, it may be you would have a very smooth motion with fender swing, but he also mentioned that the slot would have to be longer to accomodate being able to go farther forward, as he felt it did prevent that some...might be able to leave it this way, (a question would be how much you give up in stout/integrity of the saddle by lengthening the slot - would it be a benefit or a worry),and change up the fender/stirrup leather design to get that if desired...my concern on something like this is the repair costs involved on down the road, should this ever fail in a 'big' way...!

Edited August 1, 2008 by Shelly