Western Saddle Identification

[KathrynH]

I'd like your help identifying the maker of this saddle please. I purchased it last week and took it to the saddler for re-fleecing. He can find no maker's mark, but is very curious about it because of the high quality of the saddle. He believes it is S. Western in origin or maybe even Mexican. It has a 15 inch gold seat stitched with a beautiful fire pattern. Every piece of it is doubled leather except for the stirrup wrap ties and the saddle weighs over 50 pounds. The horn is flat and 4 inches in diameter. The cantle is elephant ear. The double rigging is in-skirt. The rivets are copper. Their is a pocket in the skirt for the tree. The tree is canvas and rawhide wrapped and there are two sets of two holes bored toward the rear of the tree which I read on line was typical of older saddles for the strings to be run through. There is no carving at all, only the open W stitching pattern for decoration. I think the rigging is what is most unique as I have not seen that on the Internet in other saddles even though I have been researching it steadily for a week. Thank you for your help, any leads or even your best guess!!!

Edited May 7, 2013 by KathrynH

[oltoot]

Just a guess: I would guess SEastern US during the 50's-60's. Probably made by somebody who had worked for someone else for resale by yet somebody else. From pics and your description of the tree, I certainly have a hard time seeing 'high quality' The leather is doubled to be able to use lighter leather. I can't tell from pics but it might even be a veg tan oiltan retan latigo on top. The stitch pattern helps with stability and durability. It looks like it was first used regularly for a few years and then only very lightly for many more years. Because of the rigging and general appearance I would rule out Mexico. The rigging plate used in the rear is quite unusual in that it was designed to be used in front??

[KathrynH]

Thank you so much Olttoot for your reply. I'm slowly piecing this together.

You are absolutely right about the usage. In cleaning it, it was obvious that the horse beneath it worked very hard through mud and manure (as it and sweat were embedded in the stirrups and fenders), and then the saddle fell into ignorant hands and was neglected.

I found a Ray Holes saddle made in 1963 that had the same rigging up front, (and just a leather slot in the rear) so I think you have the timeline right. The fellow who runs Cowboy Showcase thinks the saddle is production made, otherwise it would have a name on it, but if the maker's marks are sometimes stamped on the latigo keeper, I could see how that could be broken off over time - unfortunately. He definitely thought it originated from the southwestern United States, but I won't rule out Dixieland if you think there's a trail there. I'm in New York, so there's no question the saddle has traveled far from home.

It wasn't me who labeled it high quality, it was my saddler, Dick Jolley, who is 84, been working with saddles for over 40 years, and specifically said how impressed he was with it and even wants to use it to train his two apprentices because the workmanship is so rare and excellent. He's offered to write a letter of recommendation attesting to its quality. The tree is wooden, sound and wrapped with both canvas and rawhide. The leather is extremely thick and now that it has been cleaned, beautiful - very deep and lustrous. (And oh boy, does Mr. Jolley like that elephant ear cantle!) The saddle seat is padded and soft. Steel rod in the stirrups, heavyweight blevins buckles. Mr Jolley said that back when the saddle was made, the border with Mexico was very porous and that frequently, Mexicans came into New Mexico to work on saddles. He said they were some of the most clever saddle makers - at least to his taste - at the time (he also thinks 60's) and might have had a hand in this saddle.

It's a fun little history project and making me fall in love with saddles and leatherwork, that's for sure. Thank you for contributing to it.

Edited May 8, 2013 by KathrynH

[KathrynH]

Just got back from Mr. Jolley's with the other skirt to clean. Because there is a pocket for the saddle tree, I've dug down between the pieces of leather to clean and found this symbol. It's an elongated M with a 1 under the v section of the M. There's a half bar beneath.

Could it be a Maker's Mark? Does it look familiar to anyone?

Thank you!

[Blake]

The saddle has all of the earmarks of a SE made saddle , probably Chattanooga Tenn. Simco, Southern Saddlery along with Bona Allen (Buford Ga.) all had a similiar design offered in their catalogs along with a few others. A lot of saddles in that era were made by independents as peice work usually out of their homes or garages so it is not surprising that one could enter the market without a company name or stamp.

Is there a small daisey shaped flower stamped in the center of the horn cap or any markings or letters on any of the exposed rivets? Any numbers on the Frog or cantle back?

Old Toot was correct in his assessment of the leather as your last picture shows it to have a yellowish center which is common on indian tans and some re-tans of that time period. The tree was probably made by Flor tree company which supplied a lot of production trees for that era just before Ralide came onto the market.

Another consideration is the fact that some of the companies around that area did mfg. saddles without any markings and then dump them on the sale barn market. I guess it was a way around their dealers to generate more income . I hope this info helps in some way.

Blake

[KathrynH]

Hi Blake,

This is great. Thank you so much for narrowing down the field for me. I will look up old saddles from those makers. I've been pouring over the pictures on the internet and have yet to see a saddle with stitching like my saddle or an elephant ear cantle like it. (Although I have seen a few that are much more exaggerated in the elephant ear shape). But granted, there are so many variations in western saddles, it might be too much to hope for a close match...but it sure would be nice.

Mr. Jolley took the saddle apart to inspect and repair (and for me to clean and remove the stitching so that he can re-fleece!) and I have been ALL OVER that saddle. There is no daisy on the horn. (I wish!!) All the rivets are smooth. There is a 5 stamped under the gullet and a 1 stamped in the channel leather. On the sliding buckles (not blevins, but I forget what they're called) to change the length of the stirrups, there is a marking that looks like an M with a curved line through it wih a pointed tip. (I should have taken a pic before I returned the fenders to Mr.J, but next time I go to his shop, I'll snap it) So, other than the mark scratched into the leather (in my above post) the saddle is clean.

I have added another photo of the skirt, just to be thorough.

I think it will shock Mr. Jolley to death if I can find a picture of another saddle like this one with A S.E. maker identification. Just yesterday he was laughing about the size of the horn, and said those Texans like to put their coffee cups on the horn. He also said he had saddle books that even hell doesn't have, but that are on loan to his friends. He's going to get them back and do some research, but I want to provide as much additional information to him as I can.

Thank you so much!

[Saddlebag]

The horn style is called Pelican. I have a Simco from about this era with the Pelican horse and it is one tough saddle. It has the same brass rigging both up front and for the belly band. The name Simco (not the later version with the horse head) was written on the keeper which has now vanished. The stock number is almost gone but it does bear the daisy imprint on the horn. You saddle may be a little older than mine going by the cantle style which was called elephant ear.

[KathrynH]

Thank you so much for your reply and I agree about the toughness of this saddle. It's incredible. My keeper is long gone and there is no imprint at all on the horn, sad to say, so I don't suppose I'll ever know for certain whether or not it is Simco, but the evidence seems to point to something close to it. I'm down south for the summer but can't wait to get back to Pennsylvania and see how Mr.Jolley has restored it. I'll post pictures in August!!!! Thanks again.

[PcCowboy]

I have added another photo of the skirt, just to be thorough.

That skirt is what I call a "Mother Hubbard" style. For the skirt at least. In the old days a Mother Hubbard would cover the wholel saddle from the front to the back with one piece of leather. The modern day mother hubbard is only one piece of leather on the skirts. (at least that is the way I make them)

[KathrynH]

That is extremely cool to know. Thank you for sharing that piece of information. I'm slowly acquiring the correct terminology for all my saddle pieces: pelican horn, Mother Hubbard skirt, elephant ear cantle. This site is great!!!!

[PcCowboy]

I have been making saddle since 92 and never heard the term "Elephant ears" I would have called it a bull moose or a little wonder tree.

[KathrynH]

^{That's a very helpful chart to refer to. Thank you for posting it. Mr.Jolley described the cantle the same way Saddlebag did. If you squint when you look at it, you can almost imagine an elephant's ear. I think it's kind of romantic - in an Old West kind of way - to describe it like that. Mr. Jolley is 86 years old though, so perhaps the term may be one used by an older generation?? Little wonder tree looks about right for the tree.}

[Saddlebag]

There was a brief period whereby the cantle flare was larger but not particularly popular. It's just the leather that was done like that, like the cheyenne roll, not the tree.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Saddlebag

[PcCowboy]

These old eyes of mine must be going. When you said "Elephant ears" I missed the word cantel. So I thought you were talking about the front for some reason. Of course I know about "Elephant ears cantels" They are a pain to re-cover. I even had customers to ask me to trim them to normal.

[KathrynH]

No worries, cowboy.

[oltoot]

The cantle is machine sewn all the way around and then the whole assembly is slipped on and glued. I imagine you will find no leather under the padded seat, rather it with the seat jockeys and then the cantle cover is the whole thing. That top piece of the cantle looks like it is not fit around a filler as in a complete build up, rather it is sewed on top of the cantle cover and then they are trimmed flush with one another. This assembly method, common to 'production saddles' of the 50's to 70's made for much more economical cutting from the hides. All you saddlemakers imagine how much easier it would be to get a saddle out of 2 sides if you didn't have to reserve the best part of one hide for a seat but could cut a right and left piece- seat jockey with a little extra and hide on the top edges and join the whole thing with a padded seat. Only drawback would be that you would need a large and tough padded seat leather to complete it. Somebody earlier guessed a Flor tree and I would vote for that. In the 60's when I got started they were about 1/4 the cost of Standard trees from Vernal, Utah which were the 'standard' for good trees.

[PcCowboy]

Interesting. I have always used only 2 sides to make a saddle. This includes a 1 piece saddle seat and not 2 pieces. Wilford Lewis had drawn up a chart showing where each piece of the saddle had to be cut from in a side. Of course these are matched sides, a left and a right.

[Saddlebag]

The more I look at this saddle I can't help but think it was made by Big Horn saddlery. The stitching pattern very much resembles their style of seat stitching. At one time you could tell the maker by the stitching pattern when padded seats came in to vogue.

[KathrynH]

Thanks for a second look, Saddlebag. Big Horn was who Mr. Jolley mentioned as well. I had wondered if stitching patterns could help identify the maker, much like brush strokes help identify a painter, but I guess there's no way to be sure unless I could find the identical saddle with the Big Horn mark on it. I know not every stitched saddle seat in the world is on the internet, but I haven't seen a pattern so far that I like better than mine.

[rwsr50]

This is an old post, but I hope you see this Kathryn.  I have a saddle EXACTLY like yours!   Well, almost exactly.  The leather is darker, and my seat is red, but other than that....  I acquired mine used back in about 1970 in Pennsylvania.  I too am trying to find out anything about mine.  It has MANY miles on it and is still in use.  I'll post a pic of mine when I get a chance.

[Northmount]

17 hours ago, rwsr50 said:

This is an old post, but I hope you see this Kathryn.  I have a saddle EXACTLY like yours!   Well, almost exactly.  The leather is darker, and my seat is red, but other than that....  I acquired mine used back in about 1970 in Pennsylvania.  I too am trying to find out anything about mine.  It has MANY miles on it and is still in use.  I'll post a pic of mine when I get a chance.

@KathrynH hasn't been back here since 2013.

Tom

[rwsr50]

Too bad.  I was hoping to find out if she discovered anything about her saddle, as it would apply to mine as well.