coats 207 top and bottom in my Juki 441`

[esantoro]

I mostly use coats 207 top and bottom in my Juki 441` clone without any problems. I'd like to starting to experiment with using 277 in the top and 207 in the bottom with a 25 needle . The thread seems to be fraying and the stitches do not look as neat as with a 24 needle and 207 coats poly top and bottom.

At first I thought the tension, both top and bottom, were too tight. I experimented with several adjustments and am sure that I've got good tension settings. I've also used a new Organ diamond point needle (#25). No change. Now I'm wondering if I should go up to #26 needle. Does this sound right for 277 thread top and bottom. All my references tell me a #25 is sufficient.

I also lengthened the stitch per inch setting, one click longer than setting 4. That seemed to help a bit. I am stitching on two layers of 5/6 oz chrome tan, and realize maybe this leather is too thin for 277 top thread, but I still don't see why the thread should be fraying.

I'm also thinking that maybe I need to use a lube pot with 277 thread. I'll try thicker leather and an even longer stitch per inch setting.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Ed

[esantoro]

Well.,.. I've been playing around a bit. I can get nice stitches on four layers of 5/6 chrome tan (and probably three layers, too). Does this mean that it will be impossible to use 277 poly on two layers 0f 5/6 chrome tan, or must I simply fiddle around more with tension adjustments?

It still doesn't make much sense to me why thread was fraying on two layers of 5/6 but not on four layers. If thread is fraying and appropriately sized needle is new, is the reason for the fraying always top tension being too tight (as compensation for bobbin tension also being too tight)?

Has anyone here ever used 277 on two layers of 5/6 oz?

Ed

[Art]

Hi Ed,

You'd have to have the tension pretty darned tight. Fraying:

Needle or thread path has a burr on it make sure hook is smooth,

Bobbin tension too high causing overcompensation on top tension,

Machine not threaded properly,

Secondary tension set too tight (there should be minimal or no tension here),

Needle too small (for 277 a 200/230 25/26 should work).

There are other things, but they would give you trouble all the time not sporadically.

Chrome tan is different than veg, veg is stiffer and self stabilizing whereas chrome tan is less stable and will tend to move around when it is going through the machine. Gluing layers together will give more stability and especially for only two layers. More layers will have more mass and will be more stable and easier to stitch. Sometimes a more aggressive bottom feed will get the material through better, like on the 618 or 797. Chrome tan and fabrics (not webbing because that is pretty stiff) are usually problems with big stitchers, however a blanket foot with a big set of feed dogs and needle plate to match can solve much of that problem. I use that setup on the 4000P to do custom elevator blankets. Most chrome tan (within thickness limitations) I sew on the 618.

Art

Well.,.. I've been playing around a bit. I can get nice stitches on four layers of 5/6 chrome tan (and probably three layers, too). Does this mean that it will be impossible to use 277 poly on two layers 0f 5/6 chrome tan, or must I simply fiddle around more with tension adjustments?

It still doesn't make much sense to me why thread was fraying on two layers of 5/6 but not on four layers. If thread is fraying and appropriately sized needle is new, is the reason for the fraying always top tension being too tight (as compensation for bobbin tension also being too tight)?

Has anyone here ever used 277 on two layers of 5/6 oz?

Ed

[esantoro]

When going from 207 thread to 277 is it normal to tend to back off quite a bit on both top and lower tension, as the larger thread is already going to provide more tension of its own, more friction throughout the thread path and through the leather? I'll play around a bit more. One thing I have noticed is that with my shuttle hook, if I back off on the bobbin tension too much, the flang of the bobbin tension spring stands up too much and catches the top thread when it comes around the bobbin case.

Art, your tips are very helpful. I now need to try a 26 needle and back way off on the secondary tension.

Thanks for your help.

Ed

[Art]

Hi Ed,

I don't have many problems from 207 to 346 and anywhere in between; maybe a little tweak on the top tension but no more than a turn. The secondary tension is the one on the head cover at the bottom of the head and that doesn't need much tension if any, a couple of wraps around it with the thread is all I have ever needed. You do need some tension in the bobbin but it should not be more than a pound or two of resistance. If anything you need less tension with chrome tan or softer leathers as they have considerable give and don't need to be pulled as tight. Tensions for Veg tan need to be a bit tighter, but not strung up like a banjo. I lube everything I sew on the big stitcher except the bobbin which I run dry. After you sew for a while, you can get the speed cranked up kinda high and even with a sharp needle the temp can get up there and maybe cause a skipped stitch, the lube keeps the needle cool and the thread doesn't stick to it. I don't think lube is your problem right now though, I just mentioned it because you did.

Art

When going from 207 thread to 277 is it normal to tend to back off quite a bit on both top and lower tension, as the larger thread is already going to provide more tension of its own, more friction throughout the thread path and through the leather? I'll play around a bit more. One thing I have noticed is that with my shuttle hook, if I back off on the bobbin tension too much, the flang of the bobbin tension spring stands up too much and catches the top thread when it comes around the bobbin case.

Art, your tips are very helpful. I now need to try a 26 needle and back way off on the secondary tension.

Thanks for your help.

Ed

[esantoro]

For the longest time I had thought that the tension discs closest to the lube pot were the primary tension adjuster, the one that must be adjusted most frequently. I understood the tension wheel (not discs but the wheel that turns) where the thread wraps around 1.5 times before going through the take-up arm and then down to the needle was the secondary tension adjuster, which didn't require frequent adjustments.

With the above understanding, I was experiencing difficulties getting the correct tension. Then I had either read something or talked to someone and was made to realize that my understanding above had everything reversed, that the the primary tension adjuster is the tension "wheel" closest to the needle, and that this wheel is the tension adjuster that should be adjusted the most frequently. This understanding had been serving me well with 207 to 138 thread.

Art, from your last reply, I'm beginning to think that my original understanding is the correct one. I'll revert back to that original understanding and see how things work out.

Thanks,

Ed

[esantoro]

aha, I found the culprit.

Here is a page from the Toro 4000 manual that must have been the thing that informed me to view the bottom tension wheel as the primary/main tension adjuster and the top "discs" as the secondary/auxiliary adjuster.

Ed

toro4000tension.pdf

toro4000tension.pdf

[Art]

Ed,

The one up near the lube pot is the one to adjust, why they call it the Aux is beyond me, I call it primary because that is the one you use the most and has the presser foot release on it, the other one I don't use a lot. Them damned Chinese manuals.

Art

aha, I found the culprit.

Here is a page from the Toro 4000 manual that must have been the thing that informed me to view the bottom tension wheel as the primary/main tension adjuster and the top "discs" as the secondary/auxiliary adjuster.

Ed

[esantoro]

I'm at wits end. I've been experimenting all day.

I backed off the tension to a point wehre I know that tension is not the problem.

I took a good look at the top thread in its travels around the shuttle hook. It seems that 277 thread is being held too tightly against the hook, which is where the thread is beginning to fray. I don't have this problem with 207 thread.

ed

[Art]

Ed,

New needle and even a size larger. Check the whole thread path for burrs and rough spots, also pull the shuttle out and check for a burr or rough spot on it. Is it fraying the top thread or the bobbin?

Art

[esantoro]

I'm using a new oragan tripoint needle #25. The top thread is the only thread fraying. I have checked the thread path. From what I can tell, the thread is fraying right at the point where the hook begins pulling the top thread down to be pulled over and around the bobbin case.

My new educated guess is that the 277 top thread in a #25 needle is too taught in the 5/7 oz veg tan/latigo I'm currently using, resulting in too much tension from only the needle hole in the leather, not any of the tension adjusters. I even smoothed the edge on the hook where the top thread wraps around.

I'll try some chrome tanned leather and see what happens. There should be less tension in the needle whole on chrome tanned. I never thought I'd have to go to a #26 needle.

Thanks for your help,

Ed

[Art]

HI Ed,

I use a 230 (26) all the time for 346/277, I do lube. I've run 300-400 spm like that without a problem, Rice nylon or Coats Poly DABond.

Art

[esantoro]

I've been pretty much going by the needle/thread charts and even thinking that with coats poly I could go to a needle smaller than recommended.

Just did a bit more experimentation. I put in the Schmetz 27 fabric needle that came with the machine to see what would happen. Problem is gone, but a 27 hole is way too big. I just ordered a pack of #26 needles, as I want to get some work done today and like the 277 thickness. Now I'll play around with 346....my oh my... I see my thread costs rising already.

I'm also beginning to think that perhaps there might be a problem with the Organ #25 tri point/diamond point, and perhaps for certain size threads, a certain size and make of needle works better.

Art, are you using Organ or schmetz? I think I'll order schmetz #25 tomorrow, as I think #26 for 277 top and 207 bottom will just make too big of a hole.

I really do appreciate the help with trouble shooting this problem.

Thanks,

Ed

[esantoro]

Art,

What is your SPI when using 346/277?

Ed

[Art]

Hi Ed,

I use Schmetz, I tried the Organ and found them too bendy. With 346 I am at 6 SPI. With 277 I might try 7. On the Campbell I use 6 SPI with 4 Cord which is kind of like 277.

Art

Art,

What is your SPI when using 346/277?

Ed

[esantoro]

Just got off the phone with Ferdco. It seems that the Schmetz needles have a longer thread groove on them and the problem I am having does happen with the Organ needles and thicker thread. Now I think I know to just stick with schmetz.

Thanks again for the help,

Ed

[Art]

Hi Ed,

I only use Schmetz or Groz-Beckert on the big machines. I got a pack of Organ 135x16TRI from Ferdco once, used a couple, the rest are in the drawer.

Art

Just got off the phone with Ferdco. It seems that the Schmetz needles have a longer thread groove on them and the problem I am having does happen with the Organ needles and thicker thread. Now I think I know to just stick with schmetz.

Thanks again for the help,

Ed

[esantoro]

Hi Art,

I'm glad you mentioned Groz-Beckert. In my haste I ordered a pack of those too from different supplier and wanted to know your opinion of them.

ed

[Art]

The Swiss needles are good. I don't use them a lot primarily because of supply, and Schmetz work and I can always seem to get what I want, even the reverse twist.

Art

Hi Art,

I'm glad you mentioned Groz-Beckert. In my haste I ordered a pack of those too from different supplier and wanted to know your opinion of them.

ed

[esantoro]

I received my needle order from Ferdco. I had asked for diamond or tri point but they sent S serv 1, which I gave a try. Not bad. The serv 1 points seem to put down a stitch that looks hand stitched. Are there any issues regarding the serv 1 points that I should be aware of? For some reason, the proper size #25 serv 1 needle works well with 277 thread, when the organ #25 diamond point frays the thread.

ed