the back of my saddle is wearing the hair down on my horse...

[Traveller]

Is this normal? I'm currently riding in a production saddle, a Billy Cook ranch saddle, that fits my horse in his big ol' shoulders but appears to be giving him grief towards the back end - the hairs underneath the back 4-5 inches of the saddle are wearing down. Traveller's got a big stride in all three gaits so there's a fair amount of movement in his back, and recently he's started rounding up more (thanks a good physiotherapist who discovered his body was all wonky - what a difference she made!). In fact, he moves really well under this saddle so I'm not sure that it's a fit issue, though of course it could be.

I've had this saddle for about 6 months now and the hairs have only just started wearing down. Trav's also lost some fat (yes!) and is muscling up his back, thanks to regularly rounding up and an increased level of fitness, so that might account for the change. His back doesn't appear to be sore but I can see that the hairs are not what they used to be. And when he's standing tacked up but without a rider on him, the back of the saddle is an inch or so above his back instead of resting on it.

This happened before with the handmade (though not custom to him) saddle I had when I first got him and which he eventually grew out of. He wasn't rounding up well at all then - he was pretty green - but we did a lot of long trail rides and his hair got pretty short back there.

I currently ride with an Impact Gel pad with a thin cotton pad between the Impact Gel and his back (easier to keep things clean and doesn't add any bulk).

Does this mean that the saddle doesn't fit? Or that I'm placing the saddle too far forward/back? When I saddle up, I place the pad forward up onto his neck, swing the saddle on to it and then slide it all down until his shoulders are just free of the bars. Could the pad be too thick? Something else?

I'm waiting for the economy (or at the very least, my own personal economy!) to improve before ordering a custom saddle so am hoping this saddle fits well enough that I can stay in it for the next year or so, but if it doesn't fit, well, it doesn't fit....

I'm heading out to the barn later this morning and will take a few photos, in case that helps.

Thanks!

Joanne

[blueheelenvet]

Traveller, the best thing to do is post some pics of him saddled up. It is hard to find a problem or help u find a problem if we don't get the whole picture. Be honest when saddling him just as if you where going to ride. Also you have a nice pad but is it new and not broken in to him. Another thing to consider is that he is moving differently since the adjustment.

Also try to lunge him with out someone one him for approximately the same amount of time that you start to see the hair thinning. If this doesn't occur maybe since he is traveling differently your weight placement may be off and this could need to be corrected.

I hope I've helped. Merry Christmas

Happy Trails and Soft Landings

[oldtimer]

Is this normal? I'm currently riding in a production saddle, a Billy Cook ranch saddle, that fits my horse in his big ol' shoulders but appears to be giving him grief towards the back end - the hairs underneath the back 4-5 inches of the saddle are wearing down. Traveller's got a big stride in all three gaits so there's a fair amount of movement in his back, and recently he's started rounding up more (thanks a good physiotherapist who discovered his body was all wonky - what a difference she made!). In fact, he moves really well under this saddle so I'm not sure that it's a fit issue, though of course it could be.

I've had this saddle for about 6 months now and the hairs have only just started wearing down. Trav's also lost some fat (yes!) and is muscling up his back, thanks to regularly rounding up and an increased level of fitness, so that might account for the change. His back doesn't appear to be sore but I can see that the hairs are not what they used to be. And when he's standing tacked up but without a rider on him, the back of the saddle is an inch or so above his back instead of resting on it.

This happened before with the handmade (though not custom to him) saddle I had when I first got him and which he eventually grew out of. He wasn't rounding up well at all then - he was pretty green - but we did a lot of long trail rides and his hair got pretty short back there.

I currently ride with an Impact Gel pad with a thin cotton pad between the Impact Gel and his back (easier to keep things clean and doesn't add any bulk).

Does this mean that the saddle doesn't fit? Or that I'm placing the saddle too far forward/back? When I saddle up, I place the pad forward up onto his neck, swing the saddle on to it and then slide it all down until his shoulders are just free of the bars. Could the pad be too thick? Something else?

I'm waiting for the economy (or at the very least, my own personal economy!) to improve before ordering a custom saddle so am hoping this saddle fits well enough that I can stay in it for the next year or so, but if it doesn't fit, well, it doesn't fit....

I'm heading out to the barn later this morning and will take a few photos, in case that helps.

Thanks!

Joanne

I have seen this problem too, and found out ( in my case) that the skirts were laced together out to the edge which created chafing at the back edge of the skirts. Solved the problem by removing 4" of the lacing so the skirts could flex away from the loin area, (which is slightly slanted upwards.)

[Becca4U]

I would also take a look at the gullet and fork of the saddle. Make sure it isn't sitting too far down on him. As the horses' conditioning changes and muscles develop, a saddle that used to fit, might not anymore.

If it is sitting down on his wither the back will tip up and you'll have more problems than just lost hair on the rump. If it sits too far down on the wither, there can be serious and permenant damage done.

Best of luck to you. The above post is right too. How the rear skirts are laced together can be a big problem.

If you have a mind to, borrow an english saddle that won't cover up that part of his back to allow for healing. If the hair is wore of, the muscles might also be terribley sore; like a pair of ill-fitting shoes on your feet.

Any, just my humble opinion.

Happy Trails!

[Traveller]

Thanks for your replies, everyone! I seem to recall that the skirts were laced on the other saddle that rubbed him, and they are definitely laced on this one. Perhaps that's it.

Anyway, I took some photos out at the barn today. If a different angle would help, I'm going out again tomorrow and could get more.

Much appreciated, all!

(sorry about the big size of the photos...)

Edited December 23, 2008 by Traveller

[Becca4U]

First off, nice looking horse!

Second, my ex bought one of these saddles, he just fell in love with it...on the stand. Will give my opinion. Rememember it is only from my personal experience.

The ground seat in the one we had was awful. Especially at faster gaits, it would put you in the wrong position and we had problems with the horse. Had owned the horse for years and she started acting up. It was soaring her badly. Went back to a different saddle and the problems ceased.

Remember, this is just my personal experience and may not not be true of all of them.

The old Billy Cooks out of Greensville are awesome. The shop he runs now out of Sulpher is staffed by mexican workers. He was busted for having illegals at the shop a year or so back.

Here is a link to a local story about it: http://www.pryordailytimes.com/agriculture...eyword=topstory

Its a shame he isn't turning out the quality he used to.

[Traveller]

Thanks for the compliment, Becca! Yeah, he's a pretty terrific horse, both inside and out.

And thanks also for your input on the Billy Cook. Aside from rubbing hair off his back, it seems to be working fairly well. He actually goes better in it than he did in a custom saddle that a really wonderful saddle maker made (though like the first handmade saddle that he grew out of, it wasn't made specifically for him; this particular saddle was designed by a local trainer in conjunction with the saddle maker, built on a standard, hand made tree, and then you ordered it through the trainer). It didn't wear the hair off him at all, possibly because it didn't have a chance to -- it made him buck in the canter as it interfered somehow at the back end. I loved the saddle but it had to go! I'm really not that good at sitting a bucking horse, particularly once it's got some speed up.... I haven't heard of anyone else having that kind of problem with the saddle and it's a pretty small horse community around here, so I'm assuming it was a flukey fit on my guy, since I know the saddle maker always does excellent work.

Plus I find the Billy Cook easy to sit. I like sitting straight up with my heels under me rather than back on my pockets with my legs forward, and it makes that easy for me. It doesn't have anywhere near the quality of the two handmade saddles I had on him before but I'm hoping I can make it work until I can get a custom saddle. And even if I land a great contract today and order one tomorrow, that would still take some considerable time!

I'll get the laces removed after Christmas and see if that makes a difference. But I'll hang onto them for aesthetic purposes so I can put them back on before I sell it!

[tonyc1]

I didn't know that they still made Billy Cook saddles! I haven't seen one down here for years!

Tony.

[TrooperChuck]

Traveller: Thanks for the pic. Beautiful horse! My advice is the same as Oldtimer's... remove those laces on the rear of the skirts. Your horse is rounding out and moving in new ways. When his back encounters that solid rear portion of the saddle it's rubbing him hard. Unlacing the skirts will allow them to flex a bit as your horse moves.

good luck, and let us know how things turn out.

[MikePatterson]

is there something under the felt pad??? if so i would take that out and you may try a diffrent pad.

just a thought.

nice horse.

[Traveller]

I'm taking the "remove laces" advice to heart and will have them out before my next ride! I'm pretty sure that's something I could do myself, even though I'm not even a saddle maker-wannabe (though I do suffer from serious saddle maker envy...).

As for the thin pad under the thick pad, Mike, my logic for it is two-fold: first, it's easier to clean than the thick pad so I don't have a dirt-encrusted thing on my horse's back, but second (and perhaps more important) is so that the wool felt doesn't rub and remove hair. Perhaps after I remove the laces, though, I won't need it to prevent rubbing, and I'm a firm believer in less being more, so the thin cotton pad could quite easily go.

If removing laces doesn't work, then I'll try a new pad before I try a new saddle. I've got my heart set on a custom saddle but need something in the interim and am really hoping that this saddle will bridge the gap. New pads are way easier to find and cheaper to try out than new saddles....

Thanks also, everyone, for the compliments on my horse! He's got a very good mind and seems to really enjoy working cattle, as we've been doing lately, and I hope to have him for many, many years to come.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Traveller

[bruce johnson]

Joanne,

Got any pictures of where the hair is getting rubbed out? Is it over the spinal processes (middle of the back) or off to each side in the loin areas? If it is the loins, both sides equally? Is it swirling or messed up when you unsaddle him? Is it just thinning or falling out. One indicates movement to me, and the other is pressure. I hate to bring up "dry spots", but are there any? (granted, with the snow in background, getting a decent sweat pattern might be hard) What's his back look like 5 minutes after the saddle is pulled? Tried him without the cotton pad under the impact pad?

I have pretty much found the saddles that bind from laces over the middle would have done it before 6 months no matter how he moves now. My logic (not always logical) tells me that as his back develops and he rounds up, he should be lifting that up more than have it binding now. Hollowing out should bind more. I'd agree that not lacing all the way to the back is best in most cases. I don't do it myself unless the customer insists on it (one was dang sure not yielding), and then I change my skirt pattern to flare up. I saw results of one of the early pressure pad studies several years ago that convinced me of that.

The thing I just can't wrap my brain around here is this. He is moving better, he is being treated by the physiotherapist and doing better, he is wearing off hair now like he did with the last saddle, and he is not perceptibly sore. Three of these add up to me, one doesn't. Interesting problem, and it is going to be interesting to see how this works through. Thanks.

[Traveller]

Bruce, the hair is worn equally over both sides as well as the middle. I won't be able to get photos until after Christmas (we're away for a few days over the holidays) and it's hard to see the shortened hairs in a photo but I'll gladly give it a shot. There's no swirling and there are no dry spots, though he hasn't sweated much since the weather got cold. I ride him reasonably hard in an indoor ring but since he's a pretty laid back horse in good condition, it's hard to get a sweat on him (though I'm sure one of you cowboys could do it, no problem!). Back when it was hot and he sweated under the saddle there were still no dry spots, and the saddle pad was evenly marked.

I'm with you, though, on things not quite adding up. Like you, I'd have thought a hollow horse would have run more into the back of a saddle than a round horse would, but this problem has only just recently started to show up under this saddle, and only since he's been moving out better.

I'll try removing the lacing and see how that goes. The trouble with worn-off hair is that it takes a while before you can see if what you've done has made a difference. Anyone know a quick way to grow hair? ;-)

Thanks, Bruce -- all replies are gratefully received!

[Traveller]

I just looked through your reply again, Bruce, and I want to say that the hairs look like they've been broken off. I don't know if that differs from thinning but it's all very equal -- the hairs are either broken off or they're perfectly normal.

Does that indicate pressure or movement to you?

As for not being perceptively sore, trust me this is not a horse who suffers in silence... he's a good, solid horse but he's an Appaloosa who is as sure of his opinion as any Appy who came before him, so I'm pretty sure that if he were sore, I'd hear about it.

Mind you, horses have made liars out of me on more than one occasion, so I'm quite willing to stand corrected!

[Tosch]

I just looked through your reply again, Bruce, and I want to say that the hairs look like they've been broken off.

Traveller,

every winter again members of a German western rider forum complain about hair being rubbed off. Their soluntion is they put a deer skin between horse and pad, hair-side down with the hair lying in the same direction as the horse's hair. They all report it helps. Might not cure the underlying cause, though.

Merry Xmas to all of you and I hope you are not snown in too bad.

Tosch

[Go2Tex]

You will most likely discover that your factory saddle is not laced all the way and it will be either nailed or screwed to the bottom of the cantle to hold them onto the tree. You will need to remove them completely from the tree and punch more holes so that you can lace them up a few holes close to the cantle and then leave the outer part unlaced. It's how I build all my saddles and then round off the skirts too. The problem is that the loose ends of the skirt will still be moving around back there and against each other and might even pinch. It might be worse that way.

Having said that. I doubt it is from the skirts being laced at the ends. It's done on almost all roping saddles and if it was a problem, more folks would be worried about it. Broken hairs sounds like friction to me. I notice you don't ride with a rear cinch and the back end of that saddle is probably moving around a lot as it is and removing the lacing won't help.

If he's not sore, then the hair is just long and being broken off due to movement of the pads, like the hair on a dog's neck from a collar.

Just curious though, does the saddle have real wool lined skirts or imitation stuff? It might have an effect on the movement of your padding.

[TwinOaks]

Just my opinion here, and I'm not a saddle maker, so take it as you will-

With the hairs being broken off, it sounds to me like the thin cotton pad is lifting the hairs a little bit and then they're getting folded back over, breaking them. This is probably caused by vertical movement of the saddle when you're riding. Also, the cotton pad might be moving under the gel pad, kinda like a sock moves inside your shoe. I'd say try a more traditional pad, or remove the cotton pad. For the some of the Arabians my wife works, they use a cotton pad, too, but on top of the gel pad.

[Hennessy]

First off, nice looking horse!

Second, my ex bought one of these saddles, he just fell in love with it...on the stand. Will give my opinion. Rememember it is only from my personal experience.

The ground seat in the one we had was awful. Especially at faster gaits, it would put you in the wrong position and we had problems with the horse. Had owned the horse for years and she started acting up. It was soaring her badly. Went back to a different saddle and the problems ceased.

Remember, this is just my personal experience and may not not be true of all of them.

The old Billy Cooks out of Greensville are awesome. The shop he runs now out of Sulpher is staffed by mexican workers. He was busted for having illegals at the shop a year or so back.

Here is a link to a local story about it: http://www.pryordailytimes.com/agriculture...eyword=topstory

Its a shame he isn't turning out the quality he used to.

first off you've got a ton of helpfull info to go over,i'll add an enlightening bit here also.billy cook greenville saddles of the 60-70's were well made usa leather ,trees,etc 70%wetbak labor,he trained many us n mex workers who splinter'd off over n over n over,a lot of times he subb'd work out to these quitters.his volume kept getting larger n lgr n lgr.train cars full of herman oak at a time.competition from other factorys that included worker loss to them,

pattern duplication ,price cutting,all the nasty stuff that goes with pursueing voluminous

business.he went broke and in n out of business ,like the tide in galveston bay[kinda].he made enemys in the immigration dept and they bust him at least every 10 years,all the other wet back enterprises around greenville never get touched[i've been around here 30 years]he moved to sulphur ok to get away from everyone,his wet back force paid rent n purchased stuff to live in that small town also,they got him again, is the fine 10,000per wet back?amazing person, who's juggeled unbelievable volumes of everything at once he shoulda been a general!he picks up 40 or so saddles every week from his former son in laws shop.now skip forward ,competion in volume means low overhead n labor n material,loss of quality is a surety ,trees from mexico,sth am lea,contract labor 60 - 90$ a saddle ,if your saddle falls in that mess your tree is probably to fault. the contract laborer dont care aboot symentry its hurry up n get r done phew so am i adios pete

[greg gomersall]

Traveller as stated take the lacing out ( the back 2 inches is sufficent). also throw that impact gel pad as far as you can, it will create many more problems than it will solve. A 100% wool navaho blanket and if a pad is needed a 100% wool pad. the thicknesses will depend on horse and saddle. The space aged crap cannont breath so the great sweat patterns they help produce are artifical and the skirts being fully laced are to rigid over the loin area. Greg

[Traveller]

Tex and TwinOaks, the broken hair is most certainly due to friction, I assume from the saddle moving back and forth across his loins. It's happened twice before -- once under the handmade saddle I originally had him in (not custom to him, and he grew out of it), and again under an English saddle (Passier) I used last winter that wasn't a great fit (it had to be widened to fit his shoulders and that seemed to have thrown everything off).

The first time it happened I was riding in a 100% wool felt pad without a cotton liner. I thought that maybe the relatively rough wool was part of the problem, which is why I'd gone with a liner this time.

And thanks for the BC history lesson, Hennessy! Knowing how much work and attention to detail that goes into custom saddles, I'm not surprised that it's hard to make relatively inexpensive production saddles of good quality. I'd originally looked for an older saddle for my horse but all the ones I tried were too tight in the shoulder for him. His sire was a halter-bred quarter horse and he passed on his bulk.

I'll get some help removing the laces to make sure it's done right and Greg, I don't throw all that well but I'm sure I could send that pad at least far enough away from my horse that it's safe! I still have the 100% wool felt pad I used under the first saddle and might use that again, but it's cut away a little where the fenders lie and the last time I used it, there was an indent on my horse's side after I pulled the saddle off. The pad was made by a local saddle repair guy who ropes so he must know what he's doing but pressure points from the end of the pad don't seem like a great thing. Of course, once I get a different saddle, the pressure could go away.

As for the thickness of an ideal pad, I'm thinking I'd rather not put something too thin under that saddle since I don't trust the tree 100%. What do you all think?

Thanks so much for all your feedback, folks!

[bruce johnson]

Traveller,

I think you get more movement from a thicker pad for most riding. It sits up higher, and will tend to negate the fit of bars where they need to sit to "grip". The only place I think a thicker pad is good is on saddles that are too wide and sit too low in the front and are going to have a forward jerk. The ideal fix is not to have one in the first place. The old theory of roping saddles need to fit low in the gullet has been kind of taken out of context by some. They want no more than two fingers of clearnace under that gullet. One way to get that is to make a wider gullet and the saddle does sit lower in the front. It also sits downhill (and some go so far as to call that a "level seat"), and brings another set of problems. If you use a 1" or thicker pad, and over/under pad to rope with, then it raises your gullet up more than that 2 fingers of clearance that has been pounded into our head we need. The simple fix for that is make an even wider gullet. Using a regular pad raises everything up as a unit, and it still sits downhill. Some of these trophy saddles we see out here are too wide for what the guys ride. The pads with the inserts in the front will raise that front up a little and still let the back sit lower. Not an ideal situation, but these guys won them and they are going to use them.

I also think that using two pads, and especially the cotton underpad may be an issue too. You have a slippage factor between those two pads besides the back and the saddle.

A lot of the hype on padding is advertising. Just because a national finals roper uses a particular pad doens't mean it's the one a trail rider, day worker, or barrel racer needs. They are not necessarily riding the saddle they endorse either.

[SITTINGUPHIGH1]

Joanne

You may be right. This may be a change in the horse. The way he moves or his back changing. It's hard to see his loins well. But what I can see is his loins look very muscled up. If this is something that just has devolved recently this my be your problem. You did say the rear shirt is raised up. Try setting the saddle on him without any pading. This may tell you more. You have to make sure were the sores are coming from the rear tree or shirt. I would check the whole saddle out. Make sure the saddle bars are touching from front to back. If the saddle tree is bridging in the middle that could cause some problems. Or the bars may be to long for his muscled up loins. Once you find the problem then you can work on the fix.

Mort

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Traveller,

Just a couple of words here. 1) you have gotten a lot of good advice from the others, and should be able to find the remedy in all that text. 2) From the pics of your horse, he appears to be an old "stock type" built horse with plenty of muscle. I like those types myself, however, a lot of today's production saddles are made to fit the general type which seems to be a cross between 1/4 and Thorobred. The problem is that most saddles are either too wide in the withers or too small in the withers, both can cause problems. Yours appears to be too wide for the horse from the pictures. Regardless of how comfortable a saddle is for you, if it dosen't fit your horse correctly it just doesn't fit! A good fitting saddle should fit giving even pressure throughout the length of the bars without any pad. I use a strip of linen about 2" wide, by 8" long. I place it under the saddle starting at the withers and pull it out slowly taking note of how much restance there is to it being pulled out. I do this at 3" intervals the whole length of the saddle tree, both sides. The resistance should be the same all over. 3) As for height at the gullet. when I make a saddle, I make sure that the tree I am using, has between 2 to 3 fingers of clearence between the withers and the top of the gullet when the tree is sitting on the horses bare back. Once the saddle is made with the skirts and all, this will equate to about 3 1/3 fingers to 4 1/2 fingers without a pad minimum. 4) Once a saddle fits like that, you don't need 4" of padding! I am exaggerating here, but, I will attach a picture of a horse that is built similar to yours with a saddle the fits properly, you will see that I only use a single pad and I use this horse hard on cattle, trails, and all around fun with no problems. 5) Lastly, the information about the saddle being laced to the end of the skirt is correct. There should be at lease 1 1/2" of free corner at the end of the skirts in order to keep it from pinching, and rubbing on the horses back. If you are trailing up and down hills and so on this is a real problem, remember ropers rope on level ground (your saddle is a roping saddle), and it doesn't effect that area so much, but; up and down hills and over logs and so on will cause it to dig into his back. I will also attach a pic of how it should look at the back of a saddle.

Hope this helps!

Happy Trails!

Bondo Bob

P.S. I lied about the just a couple of words!

[Traveller]

Thanks for your input, Bondo Bob! Finding a saddle to fit my stocky horse has been a bit of a trial. I don't think he's such an odd shape but production saddles always seem to have something about them that isn't quite right on him, and it's mostly the shoulder that I run into problems with, though he's worn hair away towards the back of the saddle before under both a handmade western saddle (not custom to him) and an English saddle (the English saddle tipped forward on him so didn't sit properly on his back; the handmade saddle rubbed him for reasons I never quite figured out).

This saddle is the first I've had on him that he doesn't object to and which sits flat on his back. I'm not tipping forward in the saddle, as has happened before, or backwards, so I think that as far as a production saddle goes it could be as good as it gets, though of course I'm always willing to stand corrected. I'll pull the laces out of the back and see how it goes. If the hair grows back, then I've figured it out. If not, well, then it's back to the drawing board.

I'm also going to get a wool pad for him. I already have a wool felt pad that digs into his side a little where it's cut away for the fenders so that won't do.

Thanks, everyone, for helping me out. You all are a great resource and I appreciate all the advice.

[Doug Mclean]

First of all, you have a nice horse. One thing that I can see from your pictures, he has a nice long shoulder and a short back which should make him a very athletic and useful horse for a lot of different events. But the short back will cause your combination of pads to rub some hair. Here's a couple of simple things to try. When I choose my pads I always make sure whatever I'm using on the bottom is bigger than the one on the top. Your saddle being a factory saddle, the skirts probably were'nt blocked very good when built. You could take the saddle in where it's warm over night at least. Soak the back of the skirts with a wet towel and mold them up over the back of the bars. Over years of use this will happen on it own. But where it is a new saddle and your having some problems it is worth a try. My personal preference in the winter time is a kodel blanket on the bottom. They make two weights of kodel. I like to take the lighter one and fold it over and sew sides and back. This makes a nice blanket that will conform to your horse's back after just a few rides and they are not to thick ( Have your local saddle maker or shoe repair shop make you one the size you want as some of the ones that are available aren't big enough. ) Then you should be able to use the felt pad that you have on the top. I have had horses that I rubbed the hair off every winter and it didn't seem to make them sore. They looked kinda funny. Come spring when they shed their winter hair the problem goes away. Now if your horse is getting sore and acting up then all of these suggestions can be filed. I have used this combo of pads for years. The kodel is not all natural but it sure gives a nice cushion for your horse back. You might have to adjust your top pad as for thickness. Hope this isn't too far off of the trail. Just a few more idea's