machines with and without tables

[Sjm1027]

I am looking at The Leather Crafters and Saddlers Journal on page 2 and see an Artisan ad. This ad shows sewing machines with and without tables. Looking at the Toro-3000 and the 618-1 SC LTHR machine and I notice a huge difference. The Toro-3000 has no table and it looks to me like easier access to sew tighter or smaller pieces. I may be wrong because I know nothing about the machines but would like to know if this is true. What advantage do either machine have ?

I would really love to get a machine but need to learn much more before I can make a purchase.

Are there any good articles or do any of you have some opinions?

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving,

Steve

[Randy Cornelius]

The ones with the table are called table machines. In leather these machines are used for a lot of different types of work but sewing lighter leather such as chaps and belts would come to mind. The Toro 3000 is a heavy duty machine. I have one of these they will sew anything you can get under the foot. Up to 3/4 of an inch. I use it a lot in sewing 2 or more thickness of saddle skirting as well as lighter leather. I would have to say that the 3000 is a good all around machine to own. I can sew with thread from 346 all the way down to 96 with simply changing the needle and thread with little or no adjustment. It is an needle feed system. It uses the needle to move the material being sewn. I can also but a table top on it and use it just like a walking foot machine or table top model. The other type is a walking foot machine such as the table models you refer to. It uses the foot as in it't name uses the foot to walk the material through the machine. The walking foot machines are used for the lighter leather and fabric

Give Dave at Artisen a call and he can give you a lot more info on all the machines and what they do. A sewing machine will be one of the biggest expenses you will make but one you will never regret. It will be the best investment you will make in your leather business. And buy from someone who will give you good customer service after the sale. Buying a used machine may save you money but who will you call when it will not work.

Randy

[bruce johnson]

Steve,

I am envious of all you "young guys". In the good old days of my leather youth, I went got tendonitis in both elbows from handsewing. The day I couldn't brush my teeth the choices were $1600 for a relatively new stitcher called a Boss - no attachments, 10 needles, and a skinny spool of thread or the next step up that was equivalent cost $5000. Nothing in between. Today there are the line of Artisan 3000 ands 4000s, Ferdco 1010, 2020, and Pro 2000 for cylinder arms. Flatbeds have always been around, but there are more and better ones. Motors are a big step forward from a few years ago. Don't I sound like a crotchety old man?

Seriously, there are a ton of choices out there now, and it is daunting to look at the ads and advice given here and other places and figure it out. First thing I would say is you need to define what you will be sewing - flat goods can go on either a cylinder arm or flatbed machine. The thickness will determine how much capacity you need, add more capacity than you think you need. Case goods almost have to be done on a cylinder arm. There are some great used machines out there, if you know what you are looking at. If you have never sewn, I would recommend new. You will get support from the seller that way, they want you happy. Some of us have had good dealings with one company or another. A picture of my shop shows whose I like. Others have machines from several sellers.

I would highly recommend that if you are serious about a machine, have little experience with even a home fabric machine, no expereince with a leather machine, and want to make the most informed decision - go to Sheridan in May. Everybody is there - Luberto, Artisan, Ferdco, Weaver. There are other guys not there who sell machines - Cowboy, Neel, Sewmo, some new ones in the magazines and on ebay, but Artisan, Weaver, and Ferdco have been in it for the long haul, and Luberto's machine is a bit different but works for some guys. Compare the different machines, sew on them, talk to them, and learn their names. Kick someone out of the stool if they are just resting and step on the gas. Drive them and get a feel. You don't have to buy one there, but you will see more in one place than anyplace else. Plus it is a cool town and great time.

[Randy Cornelius]

I'll second what Bruce said, that is where I went to try them all before I made the big plung. You can try them all there and made up your own mind of what works for you. What I like or what Bruce likes may not work for you....

Randy

PS, Bruce you are not that much older than me are you?

[Sjm1027]

I will look to see if there is anything close to Boston, a place to go and try a few out. Living in the East and loving to work with leather makes it tough.

Hope to meet some people from around my parts.

Thanks for your help

Steve

Edited November 21, 2007 by Sjm1027

[bruce johnson]

Randy,

I am 47, I just sound crotchety some times.

Steve,

I am pretty sure you are not going to see any selection of machines near you. As Art has posted, there are some places who will sell a beefed home machine that can do thin soft leather, and call it a leather machine. They list them like that on ebay all the time. For the caliber of machine to do leather right, the new machine sellers are in Ohio, Montana, Idaho, and California. Most of these companies ship and deal direct on the dedicated leather machines. Most of the sewing machine shops, even the industrial shops in bigger cities, only deal with the occasional heavier stitcher. If they don't have a tech who has experience with them, you are better off to wing it with a manual and telephone. Leather machines and timing are an area of their own. If you want to go the used route, there are some sellers in about all parts of the country.

[Artisan Dave]

Hi Steve,

I agree with the advice given here: You really should test drive both the machines and the Company selling them. You are about to make a serious investment and you want to make sure you are investing in they type of machine you NEED and not something you purchased on a whim.

I can only speak for Artisan (because I work here) when I say we really care about each and every customer we have. We will stand by our product for as long as you own it and are always more than happy to assist in any question or concern you may have - even if it is years after your investment.

There is a show in Denver in January where we (Artisan) and all our friendly competitors will be exhibiting our lines of stitchers. Then, in the spring there are quite a few more shows where we, and everyone else, will also have our line available to test drive.

Feel free to contact me for further details if you have any other questions.

To everyone: Have a great Thanksgiving!

[Art]

Hi Steve,

To answer your specific question in a very general way. The 618 is for thread size 138 and down, the 3000 is for thread sizes 207 and up. I'm not saying I couldn't set up the 618 for 207 thread or the 3000 for 138 or 92, but that's it generally. The 618 will sew up to 1/2 inch of leather, but I keep mine adjusted for less than 5/16. The reason for the two machines is the time required for setup at the extreme ends of their ranges. I can set the 618 up to sew 1/2 inch with 207 thread, but why readjust it for that when I can use the 3000 that is already adjusted for that range of leather. So yes, if you get serious, you will have both. Then you can pick up a Singer model 17 or 66 or 201 for the real light stuff fairly cheap. After a while you start acquiring machines because they were there and they looked so lonely and they talked to you, oh God.

Art

I am looking at The Leather Crafters and Saddlers Journal on page 2 and see an Artisan ad. This ad shows sewing machines with and without tables. Looking at the Toro-3000 and the 618-1 SC LTHR machine and I notice a huge difference. The Toro-3000 has no table and it looks to me like easier access to sew tighter or smaller pieces. I may be wrong because I know nothing about the machines but would like to know if this is true. What advantage do either machine have ?

I would really love to get a machine but need to learn much more before I can make a purchase.

Are there any good articles or do any of you have some opinions?

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving,

Steve

[Artisan Dave]

Art,

There is nothing wrong with your sewing machines talking to you - but if you start answering them, you should seek medical help immediately!

[steveb]

I will look to see if there is anything close to Boston, a place to go and try a few out. Living in the East and loving to work with leather makes it tough.

Hope to meet some people from around my parts.

Thanks for your help

Steve

Steve - I live in CT and let me tell you - your shite out of luck in terms of getting some machines to demo unless you plan on getting on a plane. There are no "leather shows" near us and even fewer suppliers. Bruce, owner of Tandy in Hartford doesnt have any machines to try and Pilgrim - which is near you - supplies parts for older machines.

You could come down to my shop and try my Boss, my Econosew table machine or my Singer 29K patcher, if you'd like. I live in Southern CT.

steveb

[Sjm1027]

Steve - I live in CT and let me tell you - your shite out of luck in terms of getting some machines to demo unless you plan on getting on a plane. There are no "leather shows" near us and even fewer suppliers. Bruce, owner of Tandy in Hartford doesnt have any machines to try and Pilgrim - which is near you - supplies parts for older machines.

You could come down to my shop and try my Boss, my Econosew table machine or my Singer 29K patcher, if you'd like. I live in Southern CT.

steveb

Hi Steve,

Really nice of you to offer. Your right, not to much going on around here as far as leather. I really can't believe it. Lets keep each other informed if we hear of anything. As far as me coming over to test drive those machines, sounds very good to me. If you don't mind, lets talk again after the holidays. That will also give me some time to do some research too. I am leaning towards that 3000 but won't be ready for that for a few months.

Appreciate your help and maybe we could think about a Leather workers group some time. Really be nice if a few of us could get together to see how others do the craft.

Happy Thanksgiving,

Steve

[K-Man]

If I could add a couple of pennies worth of info here. I have two Artisan 3000's and one of the 618's. I use the 618 for the lighter weight stuff. I use 207 thread on the top and 138 on the bobbin - runs like a champ with no issues/hangups. I use one of the 3000's for the next step up in material. I use 277 on the top and 207 on the bobbin. No issues there either. I use the second 3000 for the next step up from there in material. I use 346 on the top and 277 on the bobbin. Yep, you guessed it, no issues there either.

With the variance of work/material thickness that I do, it's much more efficient to run the three machines as I do. That way I'm not having to stop and change out needles, thread, bobbins, and make any adjustments on tension. In addition, if one of the 3000's were to malfunction in some way, I would not have a work stoppage. I would simply move that work to the other machine while the first one was being fixed. (I learned to do that a long time ago when I was down for a week waiting for machinery critical to the biz I had at the time to be fixed.)

I've had one of the 3000's for over 2 years, the second one for nearly 2 years, and the 618 for about a year and a half. Have only had one minor issue with one of the bobbin adjustment screws. I've made a significant number of product with those three machines and would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone considering such a purchase. I've had other sewing machines prior to these that while they did acceptable work, the Artisan's took it to the next level.

If you're serious about wanting to make a quality product, whether it be for resale or as a gift to a family member, then IMO it's a no-brainer in purchasing the proper machinery to do so. If you're limited on funds (as most of us are), then as mentioned above, and if at all possible, purchase a machine that will allow you to expand with the type/style of item you make/want to make. In other words, the 618 is going to limit you in what you can sew. The 3000 will give you greater opportunity.

Hope this information helps, and good luck in your search.

[Sjm1027]

If I could add a couple of pennies worth of info here. I have two Artisan 3000's and one of the 618's. I use the 618 for the lighter weight stuff. I use 207 thread on the top and 138 on the bobbin - runs like a champ with no issues/hangups. I use one of the 3000's for the next step up in material. I use 277 on the top and 207 on the bobbin. No issues there either. I use the second 3000 for the next step up from there in material. I use 346 on the top and 277 on the bobbin. Yep, you guessed it, no issues there either.

With the variance of work/material thickness that I do, it's much more efficient to run the three machines as I do. That way I'm not having to stop and change out needles, thread, bobbins, and make any adjustments on tension. In addition, if one of the 3000's were to malfunction in some way, I would not have a work stoppage. I would simply move that work to the other machine while the first one was being fixed. (I learned to do that a long time ago when I was down for a week waiting for machinery critical to the biz I had at the time to be fixed.)

I've had one of the 3000's for over 2 years, the second one for nearly 2 years, and the 618 for about a year and a half. Have only had one minor issue with one of the bobbin adjustment screws. I've made a significant number of product with those three machines and would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone considering such a purchase. I've had other sewing machines prior to these that while they did acceptable work, the Artisan's took it to the next level.

If you're serious about wanting to make a quality product, whether it be for resale or as a gift to a family member, then IMO it's a no-brainer in purchasing the proper machinery to do so. If you're limited on funds (as most of us are), then as mentioned above, and if at all possible, purchase a machine that will allow you to expand with the type/style of item you make/want to make. In other words, the 618 is going to limit you in what you can sew. The 3000 will give you greater opportunity.

Hope this information helps, and good luck in your search.

Thanks K-Man,

I appreciate your taking the time to help.

This is strictly a hobby for me but your right, expansion is key... I want to make this purchase knowing I can expand. I will call the sales rep soon to chat about the future plans for this machine, accessories and what ever else they can tell me.

I know one thing, guys like steveb and the rest of the people in this forum have helped me grow so quickly. This forum has been the best source of help for anyone interested in leather. Steveb and I are from the east and we both know there is nothing here for us to go to or learn from.

I thank you all for the help

Steve