Officer Safety Alert: Off Duty Firearms Accident

[RMB Custom Leather]

Click here to read http://www.itstactic...tal-discharges/

I getting an LLC or some Insurance after reading this what do you guys think?

Edited April 12, 2011 by wwwrmbbladescom

[Dwight]

Click here to read http://www.itstactic...tal-discharges/

I getting an LLC or some Insurance after reading this what do you guys think?

There is an old quote from an equally old movie: "Stupid is as stupid does".

In the first place, . . . he had a Glock, . . . one of the singularly most dangerous firearms ever developed.

Secondly, . . . he did not buy a holster, . . . he bought a generic piece of leather goods designed to carry anything the owner deigned to force into it.

Thirdly, . . . he did not take care of his firearm or his "holster".

I make holsters, . . . not junk like he was carrying, . . . I don't have a "profit" motive that would lure me into making inherently dangerous products.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Lobo]

Interesting situation. The gentleman involved was straightforward in admitting that he continued to use a holster displaying obvious signs of wear and tear in a critical area around the trigger guard. He also indicated that he will be speaking with his insurance company to see about getting the damage to his car repaired. It is possible that his insurance company will attempt to subrogate the claim elsewhere, perhaps on the holster maker or the handgun manufacturer, or both.

The gentleman involved does not have to pursue liability claims against the holster maker or the handgun manufacturer; just making a claim on his automobile or homeowners policy could result in a ripple effect.

Having one's business activities under a corporate structure provides some protection of personal assets from claims. Having a good insurance policy provides added protection. Worth considering, even for the smaller producers.

Good post.

[Denster]

Interesting post. Is it only me or did anyonw else notice anything suspicious about the photos and the circumstances?

[Art]

Like where are the powder burns? If you have ever discharged a firearm in a vehicle, nobody would say what was that, like it was a small pop, it is deafening.

Art

Interesting post. Is it only me or did anyonw else notice anything suspicious about the photos and the circumstances?

[dickf]

Like where are the powder burns? If you have ever discharged a firearm in a vehicle, nobody would say what was that, like it was a small pop, it is deafening.

Art

Agreed. Also, the fold in the holster is in an unnatural place and makes no sense. It looks intentional to me.

[JRCHolsters]

I am thinking he is leaving part of the story out. It wouldn't surprise me to find out he left the gun under the seat while getting breakfast and then tried to reinsert it when he got back into the car.

That is also a very strange soft spot. It's like he pushed it in continually with the finger rest of the trigger guard, when inserting the gun.

[Spinner]

I'm not a holster maker but it looks to me like what's been said above. The wrinkle looks like it's due to pressing in that area, the leather looks a bit thin (I'm guessing it's single 6-7oz or so?) and I don't know about the rest of you, but if I were holstering a gun and felt it hang up I wouldn't keep trying to force it into the holster. I may be wrong, but wouldn't you feel some resistance before that weak wrinkle was able to push the trigger all the way back to fire?

I also find it interesting that he conveniently had a camera and a trajectory prop (chopstick?) handy enough to take CSI style photos moments after this happened. I'm guessing moments due to the fact that the wound is still fresh & oozy.

[Denster]

OK! I feel better now. I guess I'm not just a overly suspicious retired detective. All of the points made are valid and things I noticed. Also that is not what I would expect to see with the damage to the clothing from a grazing bullet passage. Even with the stretching of the leather in the area of the trigger I doubt it is enough to activate a Glock trigger with the gun holstered.

Very interesting.

[dirtclod]

I wouldn't think a bullet just going through a pair of britches would tear that big of a hole. If it did what isn't the seat tore all to pieces ? Plus i had agree with Art on the noise. They would of had trouble hearing anything for a few minutes. I have been in a car when a rife was was shot across the roof of the car and i couldn't hear till the next day. Something is FISHY here !!

[Art]

I have never thought of the Glock as the ideal carry weapon, all just my opinion. I was around in '87 when DC switched to Glocks. There were so many ADs that we called it the Glock AD. Guys getting shot in the foot, their LTs getting shot in the foot (don't know if THAT was an AD). The lightness and "play" or "take up" in the trigger before engaging the sear is not one of my favorite things, and keeping your finger outside the trigger guard may help with ADs, but when I want to shoot, I want to shoot. Nobody ever kept their finger off the trigger of a wheel gun when drawn. I would never be leading any kind of action where the guys behind me had Glocks. Adrenalin and the Glock don't go well together. I have never made a holster for a Glock of any kind, and don't see any reason to start, well maybe if they put a thumb safety on it, with that it would be a great gun.

Art

I wouldn't think a bullet just going through a pair of britches would tear that big of a hole. If it did what isn't the seat tore all to pieces ? Plus i had agree with Art on the noise. They would of had trouble hearing anything for a few minutes. I have been in a car when a rife was was shot across the roof of the car and i couldn't hear till the next day. Something is FISHY here !!

[rdb]

It's pretty much agreed all over the internet, that this guy was irresponsible. This story has been in every gun forum since it came out.

First, the Galco Holster he had worn for over a year on a daily basis, is a good one, but was never meant to be worn like that. It's an occassional light duty holster. It was never made to be a daily heavy use, service type holster. At some point in time, he had to recognize that the leather had become soft, and the holster was not serviceable, but he continued to use it.

I carry a Glock22c everyday. It is a good weapon, with several built in safeties. It is no more prone to discharge than any other semi with or without a thumb safety. Try dropping a revolver, and then a Glock, I know which one will get you tap dancing. If you have a weak holster, and you are one handed holstering your weapon, you're asking for an accident on two counts.

[Shorts]

Lack of maintaining properly functioning SD equipment is no excuse. That ain't no AD either. That's a ND.

The darker areas are contact, the regular brown leather was where there was no contact. This holster was on its way out for a while but this guy neglected to replace it. He even admits it....

I can’t say I didn’t know the crease had been formed in the holster. I trained myself to be sure that when holstering, to make sure the gun was fully in the holster, with the trigger protected. On this day, did I forget to do that when I holstered up? Did the leather finally get so soft that a combination of body movements and interference by the cushy leather seat move the Glock enough to create a situation where the trigger was engaged by the holster?

Anyway, I think he screwed up and he knows it. Which may explain why he's not making (at this pint) any attempt at Galco.

[Reaper]

I can see the leather doing that if you take into consideration the amount of gun oil, burnt powder, sweat that shows on the holster. All those things and him stuffing it into the rig without looking over a period of time would lend to it warping as it did.

I bet his nick name will be Barny Fife after that.... One bullet and not allowed to load it in his weapon...

[RMB Custom Leather]

You all have good points on this one but I wonder like one member posted about the ripple effect of lawsuits. I think he would have a hard time considering the worn holster he decided to still use but still concerning when you think about fighting off a BS suit.

[NC Holster Maker]

That looks like an accident wanting to happen. The creases in the leather at the trigger guard look fishy to me and the fact that it was supposedly documented just after it happened. If an AD ever happened to me (God forebid) my 1st thought would not be taking pictures of it. I think this was staged for an article. I think the author had writers block and got a Glock.

[Randy Cornelius]

In the first place, . . . he had a Glock, . . . one of the singularly most dangerous firearms ever developed.

That is a very bold statement, can you explain? Considering that 80% of all law enforcement officers in the US carry a Glock and the rest are split up between the other manufacturer. You must be aware of something the rest of us are not? Just asking. I have been a firearms Instructor for over 20 of my 29 years in LE and never had anyone in my department every have a AD like that one with our glocks. As a trainer I feel the Glock is one of the best weapons systems out there. It is apparent the trigger was pulled. How safe can a gun be that will not discharge until the trigger is pulled?

Randy

[Art]

Hi Randy, where did you get that 80% figure? For various reasons, I would prefer a safety, and yes I am aware that the wheel guns never had one, but they had a significant trigger pull. I assume you were around in 87-88-89 when the transition from the rev to the auto happened, and there were a lot of ADs. Not many of this type though, if any. As with anything, it is usually a training issue, thorough and sufficient training can make the use of anything "safe" or safer at least.

Art

Art

In the first place, . . . he had a Glock, . . . one of the singularly most dangerous firearms ever developed.

That is a very bold statement, can you explain? Considering that 80% of all law enforcement officers in the US carry a Glock and the rest are split up between the other manufacturer. You must be aware of something the rest of us are not? Just asking. I have been a firearms Instructor for over 20 of my 29 years in LE and never had anyone in my department every have a AD like that one with our glocks. As a trainer I feel the Glock is one of the best weapons systems out there. It is apparent the trigger was pulled. How safe can a gun be that will not discharge until the trigger is pulled?

Randy

[Rayban]

I didn't buy this story when it first surfaced on a couple gun forums I frequent, and I still don't...as someone else said on one of those forums, it's a set-up by a Kydex holster salesman.

[troop]

I didn't buy this story when it first surfaced on a couple gun forums I frequent, and I still don't...as someone else said on one of those forums, it's a set-up by a Kydex holster salesman.

YUCK Kydex.... i understand that kydex is the official material of al qaida...

[Reaper]

Anyone see a picture of a hole in the floor board?

if it really happened with the seat in the car there would be one...

Besides that, the wound picture is probably a PhotoShoped picture. Notice the jeans around the wound then the Tac Pants.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Reaper

[Samuel]

Very interesting article for us holster makers, but I find this article quite suspicious. I do think this is standard for people who negligently shoot themselves.

• Person admits some guilt, but not the appropriate level of guilt.
• Person shifts blame to manufacturer when others call person on how negligent they were.
• Person tries to hire some lawyer to settle out of court for some undisclosed amount.
• Person settles lawsuit.
• Person then states since manufacturer settled, person is not guilty of firearm negligence.

I don't think this photograph is altered or fake, but then again anything is possible. I don't find it odd that the person didn't post his name, because this individual may be in a job where they might get fired for it. If this individual is in a job where they handle firearms (law enforcement, security, military), and they don't report it then there are bigger problems that need to be dealt with.
I don't think that having an insurance company will stop true legitmate accidental discharged suits caused manufacturer defects, but will stop the unnecessary lawsuits back. If you have an insurance company, you may have requirements to send your holsters to testing companies who will give you a sign off of liabilty, which would increase
I think a medium and large holster company would be smart to hire a press relation management company, and some lawyers to help curb anonymous postings that may damage your brand. The company my father works for hired a company that gets alerted if anything is said about their company through the internet, forums, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and other social media sites. On more than a few occassions the company has had to send a cease and desist letters, and on a few occasions it was their competition or disgruntled fired employees making the posts. When dealing in the business firearms, I think it would be a necessity to have insurance. Heaven forbid somebody gets harmed, and your product is named and you don't have insurance that can provide a lawyer to your company. Now, you have to go out and find a lawyer and spend lots more money because the lawyer knows the demand is great.
In this case, this is what I think happened:

• Individual worked in a job that requires him to report reasonable off duty shootings (police officer, sheriff deputy, military, corrections, or armed security).
• Individual was either getting out of the vehicle, or getting into the vehicle and didn't have the firearm on their person because it was in the glove box.
• Individual then put the firearm in their holster while sitting.

Here are some things I think probably happened during this incident:

• The individual who had the negligent discharge was probably talking to someone else in the vehicle.
• The vehicle probably had the radio or music playing, and playing at a medium or loud level.
• The individual who had the negligent discharge was talking to someone on their cell phone while putting their firearm in their holster.
• The individual probably had a negligent incident past (sweeping someone) and probably stated in the past, "Don't worry, I've been around firearms all my life" after do it.
• A combination of the above.

I've seen more than a few gun shot wounds first hand, and all of them are from deliberate or negligent action. Guns don't have a brain, hand, or a finger to operate themselves therefore it would be safe to assume the above.

[Reaper]

Heck I am still wondering who wears Jeans under a pair of what looks to be 5:11 or what ever brand Tactical Pants. I wear them and I don't put jeans under them for any reason...

[Samuel]

Heck I am still wondering who wears Jeans under a pair of what looks to be 5:11 or what ever brand Tactical Pants. I wear them and I don't put jeans under them for any reason...

It's either one of two things: the lining of the pants, or thermals. The material doesn't resemble the same jeans use because it seems too thin around the wound. I wear jeans underneath my tactical pants sometimes. It saves me time when I want to shoot, and not drive twenty minutes home to change. Plus it saves on awkwardness when I start dropping my pants with no skin showing.

[saddlertime]

, my Glock 19 discharged, blowing a 9mm hole through my pants, underwear, the leather seat and bottom of the car’s door frame.

I believe this explains the material under the pants.