How Tightly Should The Holster Form To The Pistol?

[Kring]

The IWB holster that I just made for my Colt 1911A1 feels a little loose to me. I have a training gun that was meant to teach field striping and such that I have had since I was a kid (non-firing of course) that I used for the boning and shaping. The "dummy" fits quite snugly--I can turn the holster upside down and shake it fairly vigorously and the pistol won't fall out, but the real thing is a little loose. I can upend the holster with the real thing in it and it won't fall out, but a little shake will dislodge it.

Once I put the thing on though, I can jump up and down, do push-ups and jump off of things and the pistol won't move, but I just have a feeling it should fit in a little more snugly. IWB seems to be inherently more secure in that respect, but I was wondering, are there certain areas to concentrate on when boning the holster to get a tighter fit? I keep reading about holsters that are so tight that they are difficult to draw and re-holster the weapon at the start, and require a break-in period.

How can I get my holsters to fit tighter, or do you think maybe my "dummy" gun may be a little oversize? I may have to break out my calipers and see...

[Art]

If it's true IWB, then your belt will determine a snug fit if your original proportions are reasonable. Dummy guns are never exact, except for Ruger dummies that are made from real guns. You can always throw an adjustment screw in if it is bothering you.

Art

The IWB holster that I just made for my Colt 1911A1 feels a little loose to me. I have a training gun that was meant to teach field striping and such that I have had since I was a kid (non-firing of course) that I used for the boning and shaping. The "dummy" fits quite snugly--I can turn the holster upside down and shake it fairly vigorously and the pistol won't fall out, but the real thing is a little loose. I can upend the holster with the real thing in it and it won't fall out, but a little shake will dislodge it.

Once I put the thing on though, I can jump up and down, do push-ups and jump off of things and the pistol won't move, but I just have a feeling it should fit in a little more snugly. IWB seems to be inherently more secure in that respect, but I was wondering, are there certain areas to concentrate on when boning the holster to get a tighter fit? I keep reading about holsters that are so tight that they are difficult to draw and re-holster the weapon at the start, and require a break-in period.

How can I get my holsters to fit tighter, or do you think maybe my "dummy" gun may be a little oversize? I may have to break out my calipers and see...

[horsewreck]

I use the actual gun to shape holsters. Unload gun, Put on a light coat of gun oil, wrap gun in sandwitch wrap, dampen holster,put in gun, shape. On semi auto hand guns I like to tight up (bone) the ejection port pretty well. You may have your stitch line a little far out from the gun, if so is there a place to add a tension screw? I find that if you want a tight boned fit, case your leather overnight before you shape it.

[rccolt45]

I use the actual gun to shape holsters. Unload gun, Put on a light coat of gun oil, wrap gun in sandwitch wrap, dampen holster,put in gun, shape. On semi auto hand guns I like to tight up (bone) the ejection port pretty well. You may have your stitch line a little far out from the gun, if so is there a place to add a tension screw? I find that if you want a tight boned fit, case your leather overnight before you shape it.

When you say case your leather over night, do you mean you wet it let the gun sit in it over night and then bone and shape it?

If so do you have to rewet it?

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Howdy, Kring. It sounds like your dummy is over-sized in some (or all) areas. I wouldn't consider it the end of the world if it were my personal IWB holster, but I would purchase a better dummy gun before I made any holsters for anyone else. The leather you use, how you wet your holster and the drying process you choose can actually result in a very tight fit without needing to resort to using an undersized dummy gun to successfully shape a holster (which is how many makers get their tight fit, whether they know it or not).

As far as boning is concerned, the largest majority of retention for a 1911 is achieved in the area behind the trigger guard, the ejection port, and around the protruding end of the take-down lever. That having been said, please understand that the main goal of boning a holster is to get leather in contact with as much of the pistol as you possibly can. Pushing leather against the gun's defining lines isn't done for the sake of looks (well, it shouldn't be anyhow), but for the purpose of creating more surface contact wherever possible, even in the inside curves of the pistol.

[TwinOaks]

... around the protruding end of the take-down lever.

??? Slide stop?

I have to agree with BOOMstick on reasons for boning and molding. My EDC for my 1911 will hold upside down, sideways, jumping, etc., ad infinitum. It's because of the close stitch lines and detail molding to get the leather to grab the steel. Even as secure as it is, a quick tug in the right direction and it draws like silk.

[horsewreck]

When you say case your leather over night, do you mean you wet it let the gun sit in it over night and then bone and shape it?

If so do you have to rewet it?

What I mean by case leather overnight is, wet the leather put the wet leather in a zip-lock bag, let it sit in the bag overnight (the gun is not in the leather), next day take the leather out and let it start to dry. When the leather starts to turn back to it's normal color, put the sandwich wrapped gun in the holster and shape(bone), gentley remove gun and let the holster dry out then check your fit... I hope this is of some help.... sorry I forget to check this topic for several days.......

[1911 Operator]

??? Slide stop?

I have to agree with BOOMstick on reasons for boning and molding. My EDC for my 1911 will hold upside down, sideways, jumping, etc., ad infinitum. It's because of the close stitch lines and detail molding to get the leather to grab the steel. Even as secure as it is, a quick tug in the right direction and it draws like silk.

I have to agree with the red statement whole heartedly. Tension screws will make up for mistakes but when you don't need them, is when your product is really getting good. Early on I was told by someone to stop using rivits and tensions screws, I thought they added design quality...they don't. Use them if you need too, but avoid them when possible.

I use the Real Gun, same method as mentioned, little oil (excess removed) and "press and seal" works awsome. mainly because I don't have many dummies.

I try to error on the side of a little tight, little tight is better than a little loose. But I wouldn't worry, the Belt in this case sounds like it willsave you any potential problems.

[Randy Cornelius]

I don't do a lot of holster simply because I don't like to do them. But my final test is to hold them upside down and shake with the gun in them to see if it will fall out. If it don't fall it passes my test.

I agree with most that has been said.

Randy

[jrvinny]

When I first started making IWB holsters I thought heavy retention was really important. I went overboard because the cheap zero-retention holster with a metal clip I was using at the time made the gun feel very unstable and unsecure. Then I carried and trained with those high retention holsters I made and realized that when your pants are up into your armpits before your gun breaks loose of the holster, it's not very practical or efficient. Personally, I think if your gun stays in the holster when you hold it upside down, even if it feels a little loose, you're good to go. Your belt will increase the retention so it's possible to go overboard with the molding/boning, especially around the front of the trigger guard. I can't overstate the importance of practicing your presentation from an IWB holster to refine your retention (and keep your skills sharp). There are a lot of holsters that look fantastic but are not as functional as they need to be, especially in an emergency situation. Unfortunately, it a trial and error process. I've definately trashed a holster or two during the learning process.

[Lobo]

Just adding a note regarding the 1911 pistols, as this is one element of this discussion.

Not all 1911-style pistols are created equal. In addition to the Colt products there are at least a dozen other brands, some of which manufacture most or all of their own parts, and others that use parts made in places as far off as Brazil (SA, Auto Ordnance/Kahr, etc) and the Phillipines (Charles Daly and others). Dimensions of the slides, frames, and other parts vary considerably even though most are within a relatively narrow range. In addition to standard production models from a dozen sources there are also many custom models from several makers. In addition to differing slide contours (flat tops, etc) there is quite a bit of variation in actual finished dimensions because of the different machining and finish work done.

An almost infinite range of aftermarket parts and accessories add to the mix. Thumb safeties and slide releases are probably the most varied, with many shapes and contours seen regularly. Several makers offer models with accessory rails, and none of the different rail designs share the same dimensions.

Some makers offer models with obvious variations, such as Kimber's "carry melt" treatment on the CDP series pistols, with all sharp edges beveled and/or rounded off. My usual carry piece is a Custom CDP, and I form my holsters directly on that pistol for the best results.

I receive several requests every year for holsters molded specifically to support the thumb safety in the "on" position. If all thumb safeties were identical this would not be terribly difficult to accomplish, but that is not the case.

As Boomstick has accurately observed, the boning process is intended primarily to achieve the maximum contact between leather and pistol by molding the leather closely to all surfaces and details of the pistol. When this process is applied using the actual pistol to be carried in the holster the result should be an excellent fit. But when anything other than that pistol is used the result will be something less precise.

It would be easy to accumulate a couple of dozen dummies (or actual handguns) to match the majority of production pistols, but even that would leave quite a few models for which you have no actual match. Personally, I have 6 dummies of 1911 variations, and I also have a nice collection of 1911 pistols from 1914 to 1991; but I can't say that I have one of everything! My gun safe is already full, and the safe deposit box won't hold much more. Sometimes the customer just has to make a choice between something that I know will work, or making the actual pistol available for patterning and forming.

Regardless of the approach used, the finished holster will still be subjected to a number of changes during the initial break-in period. It will conform to the belt in use, and to the user's body contours (in many cases), with the results including some amount of stretching in the leather fibers as well as a degree of distortion caused by belt tensioning. If the resulting fit of the holster's "body" to the handgun remains properly formed and snug that holster is likely to provide good service for a long time.

[TwinOaks]

Well put, Lobo. I'd like to add that besides the variances in finished dimensions, there's also quite a difference in actual finish that will play a role in retention and smoothness of draw. A stainless steel or blued finish will pull a bit differently than a parkerized or nitrided finish. Just one of the 'little things' that must be considered when designing and building holsters.

[Deanimator]

I get my holsters damp by running them under warm tap water until thoroughly moist.

I then use my fingers and the butt end of my awl and free hand stitch groover to mold around the frame and trigger guard. Most of the retention quality is in the inside of the front of the trigger guard. If the holster isn't tight enough once it starts to dry, I simply re-wet it and fix the areas needing tightening.

As pointed out by someone else, getting in tight with your stitch lines makes a big difference. I don't use any secondary stitch lines because I design all of my IWB patterns to be as tight to the outline of the gun as possible. This makes the molding easier. My molding isn't as pronounced as some others', but the holsters are quite secure. I don't consider the holster done until the gun won't move when the holster is inverted with the gun in it.

Regarding the practice gun used, I had a BUNCH of those Japanese zinc models when I was in grade school and highschool in the late '60s and early '70s. I knew how to strip an M1911 when I was in the 7th grade!

My M1911 tuckable IWB:

[Reaper]

I do it so there is enough retention from the fit that I can flip the holster upside down and the gun will not fall out, but I do not have to tug the gun out when worn with a belt adding to the retention.

oh, and I wet my leather with cold water as it seems to dry tighter though that is probably just my perception of it.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Reaper

[Lobo]

We see comments regarding cold water vs. warm water vs. hot water from time to time. It occurs to me that whatever temperature of water is used, the dampened leather will return to room temperature well before evaporation is completed, so there won't be much (if any) difference.

I have also heard people say that they fill their ice cube trays with hot water, then put them into the freezer. It occurs to me that the water will have to get cold before it freezes, so what is the difference?

Heat can be used during the drying process, and can have a profound effect on formed veg-tanned leather. Applying controlled heat in the 130-degree range as the piece dries results in a very rigid finished product, caused by the effect this has on the collagens remaining in the leather fibers.

Personally, I like to use cold water during the summertime and warm water during the winter, mainly for my comfort while doing the work. After the initial forming work everything goes into a drying cabinet with controlled heat, and I use a timer to aid me in performing final forming and boning work as the moisture levels drop.

[1911 Operator]

We see comments regarding cold water vs. warm water vs. hot water from time to time. It occurs to me that whatever temperature of water is used, the dampened leather will return to room temperature well before evaporation is completed, so there won't be much (if any) difference.

I have also heard people say that they fill their ice cube trays with hot water, then put them into the freezer. It occurs to me that the water will have to get cold before it freezes, so what is the difference?

Heat can be used during the drying process, and can have a profound effect on formed veg-tanned leather. Applying controlled heat in the 130-degree range as the piece dries results in a very rigid finished product, caused by the effect this has on the collagens remaining in the leather fibers.

Personally, I like to use cold water during the summertime and warm water during the winter, mainly for my comfort while doing the work. After the initial forming work everything goes into a drying cabinet with controlled heat, and I use a timer to aid me in performing final forming and boning work as the moisture levels drop.

LOBO,

Could I trouble you for some information on your Drying Cabinet? I can PM you as to not hijack the thread, but, how can I get one? how do you use it?

I find i lose a lot of time waiting for something to dry...

Edited November 3, 2010 by 1911 Operator