What 29K Is Best?

[mikesmith648]

Found a 29k51 and a 29k70. Which one is best for sewing leather?

[Wizcrafts]

The best machine is the one with the least slack in the feed and shuttle mechanisms. So much depends on tight clearances, especially in the ring in which the foot revolves. If the puck shaped actuator is worn down, the machine won't produce long stitches at any thickness.

Aside from the wear factor, They are both short arm patchers with small bobbins and are best suited to #69 bonded nylon thread. The maximum thickness that can be sewn is about 1/4 inch. The stitch length diminishes with thickness, so a machine that sews 5 to the inch at 6 ounces may only yield 7 to the inch at 1/4 inch of leather. A worn machine may not even sew 7 to the inch into thin leather.

I would recommend taking some pieces of 8 ounce leather with you and see if one machine gives longer stitches at 1/4 inch. Then make sure it actually sews a proper stitch. Some old Singer patchers have missing, broken or bent thread check springs and skip stitches no matter what else you do.

I don't know what kind of leather projects you anticipate sewing with these machines. Don't expect them to sew holsters, or rifle slings. They are made for soft to medium leather, from 4 ounces up to 16 ounces total. They are meant for repairing shoes, boots, and for sewing patches onto garments.

[mikesmith648]

Well that fixes that idea. What kind of "inexpensive" machine would do refle slings and holsters as that is where I am leaning towards?

[busted]

Well that fixes that idea. What kind of "inexpensive" machine would do refle slings and holsters as that is where I am leaning towards?

This is the type of machine you need, to do what you want to sew.

Single needle lock stitch Cylinder Arm Walking Foot w/large shuttle hook and reverse. This machine is complete with Special Pedestal stand with 3" Dual Locking Casters, 3/4 HP 110V Servo Motor, w/50mm Pulley and Speed Reducer enabling the machine to punch through the hardest materials and for the slowest speed possible.

Comes w/3 sets of Feet and Roller guide.

800 RPM Max Speed, 11mm Max Stitch Length

793 & 794 Needle System

5 cord Max Sewing Thread

[mikesmith648]

This is the type of machine you need, to do what you want to sew.

Single needle lock stitch Cylinder Arm Walking Foot w/large shuttle hook and reverse. This machine is complete with Special Pedestal stand with 3" Dual Locking Casters, 3/4 HP 110V Servo Motor, w/50mm Pulley and Speed Reducer enabling the machine to punch through the hardest materials and for the slowest speed possible.

Comes w/3 sets of Feet and Roller guide.

800 RPM Max Speed, 11mm Max Stitch Length

793 & 794 Needle System

5 cord Max Sewing Thread

How much would one of these cost? And how thick will it sew?

[Wizcrafts]

Well that fixes that idea. What kind of "inexpensive" machine would do rifle slings and holsters as that is where I am leaning towards?

Please define what you consider "inexpensive."

Next, state the size of thread you want to use mot of the time and the probable thickness you intend to sew.

I can sew rifle slings all day on my flat bed walking foot machine, using #138 thread.

Holsters are another story. A properly sewn serious use holster has #277 thread or even #346. No standard upholstery grade machine can properly handle or tension those thread sizes. You'll need a machine like Busted described (a.k.a: 441 clone, like Cowboy, Cobra and Techsew), or a Union Lockstitch needle and awl machine, like I use.

[busted]

Hey Wizcrafts, there is a 47w66 on ebay for sale in Texas. Would this do for what he wants?

Please define what you consider "inexpensive."

Next, state the size of thread you want to use mot of the time and the probable thickness you intend to sew.

I can sew rifle slings all day on my flat bed walking foot machine, using #138 thread.

Holsters are another story. A properly sewn serious use holster has #277 thread or even #346. No standard upholstery grade machine can properly handle or tension those thread sizes. You'll need a machine like Busted described (a.k.a: 441 clone, like Cowboy, Cobra and Techsew), or a Union Lockstitch needle and awl machine, like I use.

[busted]

It will sew around 3/4" to 7/8" material. They cost around 2300 with all the tax and shipping and what ever else you might need.

How much would one of these cost? And how thick will it sew?

[CowboyBob]

I hate to cut in here but the 47w66 is a fairly light duty machine max thread size #92 maybe can sew5/16" thick.

Bob

[mikesmith648]

I am trying to stay under 1000.00. probable wont sew over 3/8" and if I do I would probably outsource it to someone who really knows what they are doing and has the machine to do it with. That is why I was thinking of the 29k. Not really sure as this is a new aveue for me. All I have ever done in the past is handstitch.

[Wizcrafts]

Hey Wizcrafts, there is a 47w66 on ebay for sale in Texas. Would this do for what he wants?

Probably not. This is a very old Singer, meant to sew about 5/16" with #92 thread or less. It was meant for sewing gloves and soft shoes.

Further, it has a snap foot and bottom feed, which is not a good system for either slings or holsters. I had two snap foot Singer machines and neither did a good job of feeding slick (polished), or thick leather.

[CowboyBob]

The 29's top foot is what pulls the material & it has teeth on it & it'll leave alot of teeth marks on the topside of your leather.

That is why it's called a shoe patcher,for making patches were people don't care what it looks like.

[Wizcrafts]

I am trying to stay under 1000.00. probable wont sew over 3/8" and if I do I would probably outsource it to someone who really knows what they are doing and has the machine to do it with. That is why I was thinking of the 29k. Not really sure as this is a new aveue for me. All I have ever done in the past is handstitch.

You are probably going to have to look for old iron at that price point. Look into auctions at harness shops for an old fix-er-up or traded in machine.

Here is what you need to look for to sew holsters and slings:

• Minimum clearance under the foot with foot or knee lever: 5/8 inch (more is better)
• Large bobbin: Standard walking foot type M; Juki type LU bobbin; Juki 441 bobbin
• Triple feed walking foot with a smooth feed dog. Or, no feed dog, but needle feed with jump foot
• Very thick take-up parts, at least double those on industrial machines
• Very heavy tensioning spring, to bring up thick thread in multiple layers of veg-tan leather
• Needle sizes ranging from 22 through 26, handling thread sizes 138 through 346
• 1/2 to 3/4 horsepower servo motor with a speed reducer, mounted under a pedestal table.

There are a very few flat bed machines meeting these specs. But, there are many 441 clones exceeding the lift spec. I have a Cowboy CB4500 cylinder arm machine that sews 7/8 inch, with up to #415 thread, using a #27 needle. In contrast, my modified National flat bed walking foot machine sews 7/16 inch, with up to #207 thread, using a #24 needle. It will take a #25 needle, but cannot hold down the leather as the needle ascends after picking up the bobbin thread.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Wizcrafts

[Art]

Hi Mike,

Many times on this board (and others), I see folks that want to cap their expenditure at a grand. This is not a good number to start looking for a heavy duty big stitcher. I hate to see what you will have to settle for looking for the $1000 machine (even used) that will do what you want and is a FIRST STITCHER. If you buy old iron with no experience, you will usually be less than satisfied, mostly due to getting it running and keeping it running. Your first machine should be a new or used current model stitcher from a brick and mortar dealer (Cobra, Cowboy, and Techsew). Don't buy off eBay until you can completely adjust your machine, as things on eBay are usually set-up for high speed operation and will disappoint you sewing leather. Get your experience with a new machine and a dealer as a lifeline. If you think you only need to sew 3/8" of leather, you are wrong, you always need to sew bigger no matter what you think. If a factory manager said he only needed to sew X, then it is easy to believe, but a leatherworker will need to sew X+++ because that's the way it works.

So, your budget is low, save more or adjust your budget to $2000 at least, $2,800 for a big 16 inch arm machine. Once you get a stitcher and some experience, there are plenty of old iron machines out there that will do the light stuff cheap.

Art

I am trying to stay under 1000.00. probable wont sew over 3/8" and if I do I would probably outsource it to someone who really knows what they are doing and has the machine to do it with. That is why I was thinking of the 29k. Not really sure as this is a new aveue for me. All I have ever done in the past is handstitch.

[mikesmith648]

Will the "better" machine do the light things like purses and patches also? Not wanting to get 2 or 3 machines. Would like to get one that will do all I want. Also I am a Travel Nurse and will be mounting this in my 6 x 12 trailer and take everything with me as I go, at least until I retire and then planning on doing leatherwork full time then......well between the fishing and hunting anyways!

[Wizcrafts]

Will the "better" machine do the light things like purses and patches also? Not wanting to get 2 or 3 machines. Would like to get one that will do all I want. Also I am a Travel Nurse and will be mounting this in my 6 x 12 trailer and take everything with me as I go, at least until I retire and then planning on doing leatherwork full time then......well between the fishing and hunting anyways!

You are going to need two machines to sew everything you described. Get a 441 clone, with a flat table attachment and a foot treadle operated patcher. Patchers have universal feed and can sew up the arm, or any direction. Although they are light duty machines, they will patch boots, vests, jackets, garment sleeves and legs, install zippers and repair purse interiors and do other small odd jobs. Between these two machines and some accessory feet for the 441, you can sew almost any leather project.

FYI: I use a patcher for odd jobs, as well as a 16.5" arm 441, a walking foot machine, a straight stitch flat feed machine, a huge harness sttitcher, a serger, an electronic machine and two very old Singer iron machines. Each one does something different and is adjusted to do so.