Absolute Frustration

[shaylajade]

I am literally in tears as I type this, I am so BEYOND frustrated and I don't know what to do.

My boyfriend and I have recently gotten into leather working which has been amazing; however, what has not been amazing is ruined projects because of finishes.

We have been using the Eco-Flo Hi-lites because we love the way it makes the projects look; defined carving and stamping and the perfect color. However, when it comes to keeping the final project protected from the elements it seems hopeless. Our local Tandy told us to use Carnauba Creme and Gum Tragacanth and that should work; well, it doesn't. Mike has found a way to get the CC on so it doesn't horribly smear the project but it does nothing to protect it. We were then told to put a 'top coat' on the project like Sno-Seal (on top of the CC and GT) but that also does nothing. For example, we just make a cuff and a bracer both of which would never be fully submersed in water but it is realistic to assume that if one was to wash their hands that there is they would get slightly wet/sprayed on. When we tested them the cuff and bracer were left with water marks and all the hi-lite pulled out in the test area.

We are honestly at a loss. Our local Tandy could offer no advice and said that it might be the hi-lite and the fact that it is water based. He then offered us a comforting story of a customer of his who now uses the eco-flo and warns his customers who buy his purses that if they get them wet and the color runs that it's their issue not his - wonderful.

Is using the water based Eco-flo hi-lites hopeless? Is there something else we can use that will give us the same effect? I'll attach a picture of the bracer and cuff as an example of how we like the projects to look.

I'm sure this is a beaten horse thread but browsing through I didn't find too much. Thank you so much!

[Tkleather1]

I dont care for any of the ecoflow stuff. I use the feibings antique paste with a coat of tankote (or neetlac if you can find any) with the paste you will want to use a blocker of some kind again neet lac or I have resorted to Saddle lac but no where near as good as the neet lac. I only use the gum trag on edges and I have never used the carnuba cream so i am not much help there.

I hope this is a little bit of help and I feel your pain in the frustration department as this is common in the early stages.

[MADMAX22]

sno seal is actually really good at keeping out water. Atleast in my experiences. I dont however use ecoflow when doing the antiquing. I use the feibings gel antique mixed with some neatsfootoil as per direction of a few of the people on this forum. It seems to work pretty well.

Oh and nice looking bracers by the way.

Would like to add one more thing. Try experimenting with pieces of leather and not a finished project, this way you can find what will work up to your standards before you really try out a finished product.

Edited April 21, 2009 by MADMAX22

[whinewine]

I don't know why someone would tell you to use gum tragacanth -it's used for burnishing, NOT for a sealant or a top coat. Carnauba cream is (I believe), only water resistant, NOT waterproof.

I personally like & use the hi-liters, primarily because of the range of colors available, & I use them on my drinking mugs & pouches. BUT I MAKE SURE TO USE A WATERPROOFER, not something that's merely water RESISTANT. My personal preferences are: neatlac, saddlelac, krylon, (all non-waterbased), water-based acrylics like spray supershene (light coats so the colors don't run). For motorcycle seats, I use Pecards (or sometimes Aussie dressing- just make sure you don't put crap underneath that might block the maximum absorption, like gum trag or carnuaba cream or some such.

Just my $0.02 worth for what works for me, and there are certainly other products I haven't used that would work very satisfactorily.

(It's unfortunate that so many employees [not just at Tandy, but at many, many other retail businesses] don't have a clue about the products they sell. They don't play with the products they sell, they don't experiment with them, they don't try to see what works & what doesn't, & many simply don't care except to say to themselves "Oh f**k, here comes another customer!" I can go into any Lowes or Home Depot, among others, & ask a simple question that will stump the person at the customer service desk. I walked into a Lowes last week & asked where I could find wood bleach- the person said "what's that?" I said "oxalic acid"- again, I got "what's that?" I walked out & went to Sherman Williams where the girl directed me right to it.)

If you want correct information, contact Clay- a Tandy manager - he's on LWnet here (& I think there are a couple of others here who are in the Tandy system, but I can't think of them offhand). I would also recommend calling Jimmy at the Atlanta store- he's one of the old time Tandy guys & he does know his products. Great guy. Knowledgeable guy!

Sorry for the rant- it's just that I've also done retail & was expected to learn & to know my product, not just sell, sell, sell (or worse yet, just collect a paycheck by avoiding customers).

russ

Edited April 21, 2009 by whinewine

[ryano]

I use Weavers Tuff Kote for my finished products. They have black and clear. I even put the leather in the tub to soak it for wet forming after the finish is applied and it does not hurt it or water spot it.

I have a set of leather motorcycle bags that were finished with Fiebings black leather balm with atom wax and they have held up to 15 years of weather and riding. They say it is not water resistant, but I believe it is.

[CitizenKate]

We have been using the Eco-Flo Hi-lites because we love the way it makes the projects look; defined carving and stamping and the perfect color. However, when it comes to keeping the final project protected from the elements it seems hopeless. Our local Tandy told us to use Carnauba Creme and Gum Tragacanth and that should work; well, it doesn't. Mike has found a way to get the CC on so it doesn't horribly smear the project but it does nothing to protect it. We were then told to put a 'top coat' on the project like Sno-Seal (on top of the CC and GT) but that also does nothing. For example, we just make a cuff and a bracer both of which would never be fully submersed in water but it is realistic to assume that if one was to wash their hands that there is they would get slightly wet/sprayed on. When we tested them the cuff and bracer were left with water marks and all the hi-lite pulled out in the test area.

We are honestly at a loss. Our local Tandy could offer no advice and said that it might be the hi-lite and the fact that it is water based. He then offered us a comforting story of a customer of his who now uses the eco-flo and warns his customers who buy his purses that if they get them wet and the color runs that it's their issue not his - wonderful.

Is using the water based Eco-flo hi-lites hopeless? Is there something else we can use that will give us the same effect? I'll attach a picture of the bracer and cuff as an example of how we like the projects to look.

When all the Eco-Flo stuff came out, I bought a bunch of samples of the dyes, hi-lighter, all-in-one, carnauba cream, etc., and started playing with them all. I have gotten the same results with the Carnauba Creme and the water-based antiques/stains as you have, it just smeared the stain all over the place, and made a huge mess!

Tan-Kote was one of finishes I tried that went on with the least amount of disruption to the water-based stains. All the wax finishes I tried (other than carnauba creme, which I don't think really has much wax in it, anyway) went on with no problems at all. The ones I tried were Kiwi neutral shoe polish (very inexpensive and easy to find anywhere; just wipe it on, then buff), Bee Natural (more expensive, but very good; I sprayed it on in several light coats), and Trewax liquid floor wax (also sprayed that on), and Johnson paste floor wax (wipe on, buff off, and this stuff creates a very glossy finish!)

I also poured water on my samples to test for how well the finishes repel water, and the wax finishes all passed my tests with flying colors.

Another thing I discovered was, mixing tan-kote with the all-in-one (which is also a water-based stain) improves both the appearance and the stability of the stain considerably. By "stability", I mean, how well it stays put when you try to apply something over it. It also makes the stain easier to work with. I have not tried this with the hi-lighter, but it's something I would suggest trying. On scrap, first!

Hope this helps, and please do let us know how our suggestions work out for you.

Kate

[jbird]

Ok this is down my ally I have used and used that bad stuff there is no way to totally keep it from water, but if you can stand a little a higher sheen then saddle

lac is your baby its still flexes with out cracking but you must buy the spray bottles always spray over acrylics is my motto,

hope this helps

PS two coats of sadlle lac and you will be amazed at how it keeps out water be sure and let the stain dry.

[shaylajade]

Thank you so much guys! I'm at work right now so I can't do much experimenting but will definitely get working when I get home.

The only reason we did our finishes on our final products was because we THOUGHT we had found the answer. *deep breath* With a much clearer, and drier head - lol, we're gonna take a step back and try all of the suggestions, baring that we can find the products, before we get going at it again.

Being that we're in Canada, there isn't a whole lot of leather shops or suppliers up here (well at least not in our area) but I did think about calling some of the Tandy managers in the States, so it's funny that you suggested it whinewine; I'll give them a call if I'm still running into problems.

I do think our main problem is the hi-lite. From the sounds of it, the Eco-Flo is crap so I think it's time to move on to bigger and better products.

Seriously, thank you for all the input, it has restored my faith that we will find what works for us.

[DG Leather]

I think I may cry now.......

I been using these same tandy ECO colors...I have done a crap load of projects so far....in the winter and now I guess I will need to see how and if they hold up to the elements.....if they dont I guess I will be throwing them in the garbage?

Would there be any way to salvage these already completed projects....

I been putting the colors (dyes and/or stains) and then spray on super sheen....tandy told me when i bought everything that is good enough....did not make sense to me but they all said they do leather work.....but I know for a fact after learning on this site that those employees are either greener than me (cuz they dont have this site) or they really dont know what the hell they are talking about.....

I am concerned now about my finished projects.....

I feel your pain, somewhat now!

[DG Leather]

I just did a test on all my projects here and mine are now running as well when wet......

Is it possible to treat these colors although i have already put sheen on them?

[jbird]

I just did a test on all my projects here and mine are now running as well when wet......

Is it possible to treat these colors although i have already put sheen on them?

see if tan-kote or saddle-lac will go over your finish with out bubbling

Josh

[CitizenKate]

I just did a test on all my projects here and mine are now running as well when wet......

Is it possible to treat these colors although i have already put sheen on them?

Acrylic finishes can be removed with a wet sponge. Then try either a lacquer-based finish (as Josh suggests), or wax. Tan-kote is not as water resistant as either of those two finishes.

Kate

[DG Leather]

Acrylic finishes can be removed with a wet sponge. Then try either a lacquer-based finish (as Josh suggests), or wax. Tan-kote is not as water resistant as either of those two finishes.

Kate

Thank you greatly to person who started this thread and then also for your solutions i am heading to my local rip off artist to buy some supplies.....to bad i did nothave patience or i would order from the city instead of this bastard guy...lol

I will post my outcome on here in hopes to help the thread author......please let me know as well how yours turns out.....you saved me from giving away these articles i made that i am proud off to only hear they may run colors....

[Bree]

Airbrush sealer over the water-based hi lighter to prevent the running and smearing and then continue your finishing. Very EZ fix.

[kevinhopkins]

Hi there frustrated.... I can really sympathize with you. For what it's worth, we ship about 100 orders per day to individual prisoners across the country. Day in, and day out, it doesn't vary much. Those guys really have learned how to apply and use finishes. We sell them a zillion bottles of Fiebings products to every 2 or 3 bottles of eco flow stuff. The finishes that they seem to gravitate to are Clear Lac (neat lac), Angelus acrylic, Pro Clear Acrylic, Leather Balm, and Resolene. Clear lac must be thinned first for proper usage. There are 4 zillion home recipes out there, and about the same number of finishing techniques. Without writing a book on how to use all those things, you're more than welcome to call and talk to either myself or Bo Riddle in the shop, and we'll do our best to help.

Best wishes for success!

Kevin

[wildland]

I just bought my first bottle of eco-flo gel antique, and after reading this thread I ran to my shop to test the many pieces I have used it on. fortunately it hasn't run on any of my projects I tested even the one I held under the water facet. I dye my stuff with an alcohol based wood dye and then use the gel antique and then finish off with 4 or 5 cotes of mink oil. Apparently that works well enough to keep the eco-flo from running.

[DG Leather]

I just bought my first bottle of eco-flo gel antique, and after reading this thread I ran to my shop to test the many pieces I have used it on. fortunately it hasn't run on any of my projects I tested even the one I held under the water facet. I dye my stuff with an alcohol based wood dye and then use the gel antique and then finish off with 4 or 5 cotes of mink oil. Apparently that works well enough to keep the eco-flo from running.

Wild,

Alcohol based wood dye that you use is an actual dye? or more like a stain? Do you use anything to dillute your colors?

what is gel antique?

with mink oil that is your last touch to it? you ont add laquer nor a sheen? or anything else?

What I have learnt about my eco flow color run is that whn i mist the piece with spray.....the beads of water are absorbing color upward....as if the color is sitting on the surface and the super sheen has not sealed it enough perhaps the solids in the color have risen up through the super sheen after i sprayed it.......it is like the water syphons the color solids up or something.......so i am gonna attempt to buff out these solids on these already completed pieces with a shoe polish block to see if that will pull out the solids......

then i think i will mink oil the piece to try that.........

I have another Q!!!!!

I was told mixing my dyes and/or stains with Lexol leather conditioner may prevent this sort of thing from happening and to alsp lightly case leather prior to dying or staining.....any thoughts?

[wildland]

Wild,

Alcohol based wood dye that you use is an actual dye? or more like a stain? Do you use anything to dillute your colors?

what is gel antique?

with mink oil that is your last touch to it? you ont add laquer nor a sheen? or anything else?

What I have learnt about my eco flow color run is that whn i mist the piece with spray.....the beads of water are absorbing color upward....as if the color is sitting on the surface and the super sheen has not sealed it enough perhaps the solids in the color have risen up through the super sheen after i sprayed it.......it is like the water syphons the color solids up or something.......so i am gonna attempt to buff out these solids on these already completed pieces with a shoe polish block to see if that will pull out the solids......

then i think i will mink oil the piece to try that.........

I have another Q!!!!!

I was told mixing my dyes and/or stains with Lexol leather conditioner may prevent this sort of thing from happening and to alsp lightly case leather prior to dying or staining.....any thoughts?

It is a dye W. D. Lockwood Dyes. If I want a color to be lighter I add more denatured alcohol. You can also mix the Lockwood dyes to make custom colors.

Gel antique is made by Eco-Flo. It is a water based gel you apply heavily to a piece and then wipe off with a damp sponge. This leaves it in the recessed areas of a carving and sort of highlights it.

Mink oil is my last touch I like the way it finishes a piece. If this is the right way or not I couldn't tell you it's just the way I do it.

I always dye my pieces after I case it. Don't know about mixing it with a leather conditioner, never tried that.

[whinewine]

I have another Q!!!!!

I was told mixing my dyes and/or stains with Lexol leather conditioner may prevent this sort of thing from happening and to alsp lightly case leather prior to dying or staining.....any thoughts?

I think it was Bick, not Lexol that you are referring to. Many people mix dyes with Bick & the dyes don't migrate all over the place like they normally would. I don't know if the combination would prevent the dye mix from running, since I've only used spirit dyes with Bick, not water-based ecoflos. The spirit/Bick mixes don't seem to run in the presence of water, but I don't have a clue about ecoflo. Get Bick & mix with ecoflo, experiment & then post your results- we'd be interested in the results. Bick can be gotten at Springfield Leather (Kevin Hopkins' business) or Beiler's in Ronks, PA, (among other places, of course). Both listed places have about the best prices.

There used to be threads about Bick & dye mix here, but perhaps they may have disappeared in the crash...

russ

[kevinhopkins]

For what it's worth, the bick and dye mixing thing is a wonderful deal. It does take experimentation, but it opens so many doors that it's just amazing. We've mixed oil dyes, alcohol dyes, and even acrylics (believe it or not) with it. It just seems to want to work with you. But as to all the finish problems that we've all had at one time or another, I think it helps to look at those things as an opportunity to get smarter, and learn to fix things. Bo Riddle says that he got to be fairly good with dyes and finishes, only because he screwed so many of them up in his early years!

Kevin Hopkins

[DG Leather]

For what it's worth, the bick and dye mixing thing is a wonderful deal. It does take experimentation, but it opens so many doors that it's just amazing. We've mixed oil dyes, alcohol dyes, and even acrylics (believe it or not) with it. It just seems to want to work with you. But as to all the finish problems that we've all had at one time or another, I think it helps to look at those things as an opportunity to get smarter, and learn to fix things. Bo Riddle says that he got to be fairly good with dyes and finishes, only because he screwed so many of them up in his early years!

Kevin Hopkins

what is bick?

[gtwister09]

Here's their web page for Bick 4, a leather conditioner. Bick 4 Leather Conditioner

Regards,

Ben

[crissy]

Ok this is down my ally I have used and used that bad stuff there is no way to totally keep it from water, but if you can stand a little a higher sheen then saddle

lac is your baby its still flexes with out cracking but you must buy the spray bottles always spray over acrylics is my motto,

hope this helps

PS two coats of sadlle lac and you will be amazed at how it keeps out water be sure and let the stain dry.

hello,

when you say "must buy the spray bottles" are you saying that saddle-lac comes in a spray bottle too or you put it in a spray bottle.? I am coming to the end of my fuse as the finishing stage the final coat is my only problem that I can't seem to get under control.

thank you

crissy

[iwannabeacowboy]

Most of what I finish I use Neat-Lac both spray can and Quarts for brush on, depends what i'm making. When it comes to Sno-Seal, use a hair dryer to warm the leather first, then apply Sno-Seal with your hand make sure you rub in well. Then use the hair dryer again. I put on 3 coats and it holds up pretty good. What ever you use do 2 to 3 coats.

[eternoui]

I am using fiebings oil dyes and i apply a coat of carnauba cream and a coat of gum tracaganth. Everything I havw done seems fine. Give it some time to dry after applying each coat