Bobbinless?

[stanly]

I'm wondering if it's possible to adapt a lockstitch flatbed machine to feed the thread from a spool instead of a bobbin?

I heard from my local sewing machine dealer that this is common for Chainstitch machines and used some kind of tube?

Guessing for feeding/routing, maybe open on side to make it easier to get thread in?

Are there clear pictures of this setup somewhere?

Esp. what happens going into the bobbin case?

Thanks

This guy had same question - never got answered

http://leatherworker...h=1

And for kicks - here's a link that illustrates some of the different stitching types (being formed)

http://oldsewingmach...candanex.co.uk/

[CowboyBob]

A machine w/o a bobbin makes a chainstitch that will have loops on th bottom of the stitch that looks like the under side of a potato bag,very unsightly in leather.

There are machine like Singer 300w that make a chainstitch & used in tarp & canvas & even some auto upholstery.

Bob

[TwinOaks]

It'd be great if you ever wanted to 'unzip' some leather you've sewn together......instead of stitching in an actual zipper.....

[Cobra Steve]

Back in the 1880,s, Sir Isaac Singer offered anyone, one million dollars if they could develop a lockstitch machine(needle and bobbin), also known as a 301 stitch, where the bobbin would be as large as the spool of thread. 130 years later, it still hasn't been done. The machine would have to be 10 times the size as it is now, virtually making it not feasable. If anyone would like to try and invent one, be sure to invest in a few bottles of headache pills, or a few bottles of Jack Daniels. Either one of these remedies will kill the pain that you will inflict upon yourself by trying. I know this, because as most sewing machine mechanics/expert's, have, at least on a few occasions, tried. Thought I had it once, but in reality.......wasn't even close! Steve

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

I've got a variety of wacky things on my list including one way treadle brakes, transverse treadles and an assortment of external hand cranks for a variety of machines but not even I'm crazy enough to try

[CowboyBob]

I've seen one way treadle brakes & think they would be pretty easy to make.

[Art]

The Union Lockstitch machine is the closest I have seen with the big bobbin that holds around 100-150 yards of thread. There was one set of drawings I have seen that used a tube for the hookshaft and ran the thread through that. If anything ever comes to fruition, it will set the prewound bobbin industry on it's ear. It is just hard to imagine that American, English, and German ingenuity would not have developed something to replace the bobbin.

Art

Back in the 1880,s, Sir Isaac Singer offered anyone, one million dollars if they could develop a lockstitch machine(needle and bobbin), also known as a 301 stitch, where the bobbin would be as large as the spool of thread. 130 years later, it still hasn't been done. The machine would have to be 10 times the size as it is now, virtually making it not feasable. If anyone would like to try and invent one, be sure to invest in a few bottles of headache pills, or a few bottles of Jack Daniels. Either one of these remedies will kill the pain that you will inflict upon yourself by trying. I know this, because as most sewing machine mechanics/expert's, have, at least on a few occasions, tried. Thought I had it once, but in reality.......wasn't even close! Steve

[stanly]

I'll put up the Utube links of machines that seem be doing this:

This looks like a machine doing exactly what I'm talking about.... and showing the bobbin case (in about .22), but I can't see how it's routed.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Sorry I confused everyone else be telling how I arrived at asking such an odd question (seemed to me).

The Union Lockstitch machine is the closest I have seen with the big bobbin that holds around 100-150 yards of thread. There was one set of drawings I have seen that used a tube for the hookshaft and ran the thread through that. If anything ever comes to fruition, it will set the prewound bobbin industry on it's ear. It is just hard to imagine that American, English, and German ingenuity would not have developed something to replace the bobbin.

Art

Thanks Art

link to 2 thread chainstitch machine - invented 1994

http://zarif-sewingmachine.blogspot.com/

[oldtimer]

Back in the 1880,s, Sir Isaac Singer offered anyone, one million dollars if they could develop a lockstitch machine(needle and bobbin), also known as a 301 stitch, where the bobbin would be as large as the spool of thread. 130 years later, it still hasn't been done. The machine would have to be 10 times the size as it is now, virtually making it not feasable. If anyone would like to try and invent one, be sure to invest in a few bottles of headache pills, or a few bottles of Jack Daniels. Either one of these remedies will kill the pain that you will inflict upon yourself by trying. I know this, because as most sewing machine mechanics/expert's, have, at least on a few occasions, tried. Thought I had it once, but in reality.......wasn't even close! Steve

Jack Daniels !!?? "You can drink it but it tastes like crap" ! Who would even try!

/ Knut

[Saddlebag]

What came first, the Bobbin or the Shuttle?

[Cobra Steve]

Jack Daniels !!?? "You can drink it but it tastes like shit" ! Who would even try!

/ Knut

Hey Knut, only the first swig, then your mouth and tongue blows up, then who cares after that! LOL Steve

[machinehead]

There was a sewing machine long ago that was a lockstitch machine that used a full spool of thread in a canister in place of a bobbin. It probably was first manufactured in the late 1800's and lasted into the early 1900's. Named National Two Spool and also Eldredge Two Spool.

[Techsew Ron]

If anyone would like to try and invent one, be sure to invest in a few bottles of headache pills, or a few bottles of Jack Daniels. Either one of these remedies will kill the pain that you will inflict upon yourself by trying. I know this, because as most sewing machine mechanics/expert's, have, at least on a few occasions, tried.

LOL great advice Steve !

[Wizcrafts]

For anybody else who wants to sew leather, bobbinless, there are some time-proven, heavy duty, leather sewing, needle and awl chainstitch machines still being produced by the Puritan company. I came very close to buying one for cheap, several years ago. These machines are best used with waxed linen thread, which won't unravel if one stitch breaks. They are used to sew golf bags, briefcases, luggage, boots, shoes, gun cases, bowling ball bags, and other items that need a very strong stitch, the back of which is not usually seen.

Other industrial machines already exist that perform a chain stitch. Most of these machines are not strong enough to sew leather and can't use waxed linen thread.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Wizcrafts

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

I've seen one way treadle brakes & think they would be pretty easy to make.

There are a couple of ways to do it. The best I have seen is in an 1880's Wilcox and Gibbs. What I have in mind is something that can be retrofitted to a range of machines.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Anne Bonnys Locker

[Wizcrafts]

There are a couple of ways to do it. The best I have seen is in an 1880's Wilcox and Gibbs. What I have in mind is something that can be retrofitted to a range of machines.

I wish I had a one way treadle on my long arm Singer patcher! It is fine when already in motion. But, when I stop and restart, I often have to hand wheel over the "hump" to get it to run forward.

[simran]

I wish I had a one way treadle on my long arm Singer patcher! It is fine when already in motion. But, when I stop and restart, I often have to hand wheel over the "hump" to get it to run forward.

I've actually caught myself poking along with a shoe patcher, had someone get the best of my attention, only to look back at my work and find I was going backward. I'd been stitching so slow that, at the top of the stroke, it reversed direction on me.

[Wizcrafts]

I've actually caught myself poking along with a shoe patcher, had someone get the best of my attention, only to look back at my work and find I was going backward. I'd been stitching so slow that, at the top of the stroke, it reversed direction on me.

Now I don't feel so foolish!

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

I wish I had a one way treadle on my long arm Singer patcher! It is fine when already in motion. But, when I stop and restart, I often have to hand wheel over the "hump" to get it to run forward.

Hi Wiz,

Easy way to do it is to use the brake pad off a bicycle and shape it to fit into the belt groove on the band wheel. Make a bracket that can be held in place by the top right frame bolt (you may want to put an equivalent thickness spacer down the bottom bolt) and an arm that drops the brake pad into the belt groove at between 30 and 45 degrees. The arm needs to be on a hinge so it is free floating. When travelling in the correct direction the pad is pushed out of the groove slightly but when you go backwards it will lock in place.

Eventually I will crank out a commercial adjustable one to fit both old and new styles of domestic and industrial Singer frames.

[Wizcrafts]

Hi Wiz,

Easy way to do it is to use the brake pad off a bicycle and shape it to fit into the belt groove on the band wheel. Make a bracket that can be held in place by the top right frame bolt (you may want to put an equivalent thickness spacer down the bottom bolt) and an arm that drops the brake pad into the belt groove at between 30 and 45 degrees. The arm needs to be on a hinge so it is free floating. When travelling in the correct direction the pad is pushed out of the groove slightly but when you go backwards it will lock in place.

Eventually I will crank out a commercial adjustable one to fit both old and new styles of domestic and industrial Singer frames.

If you do decide to market these contraptions on the forum, I will be one of your first buyers. I have the newer style patcher; a 29k172.

[electrathon]

Hi Wiz,

Easy way to do it is to use the brake pad off a bicycle and shape it to fit into the belt groove on the band wheel. Make a bracket that can be held in place by the top right frame bolt (you may want to put an equivalent thickness spacer down the bottom bolt) and an arm that drops the brake pad into the belt groove at between 30 and 45 degrees. The arm needs to be on a hinge so it is free floating. When travelling in the correct direction the pad is pushed out of the groove slightly but when you go backwards it will lock in place.

Eventually I will crank out a commercial adjustable one to fit both old and new styles of domestic and industrial Singer frames.

Do you have a picture of this?

Aaron

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

Do you have a picture of this?

Aaron

Hi Aaron,

While I am happy to describe one way to do it I cannot really share my pics of the prototypes as they are of a more advanced design (actually simpler) and I do hope to make a dollar or two out of this.

[JoelR]

Neat idea Anne. Essentially a wedge when going backwards.

Back to the op topic: The reason it is not a simple retrofit is the thread fed by the needle must be fully wrapped around the bobbin. This would require a much longer travel for the takeup bar (or whatever the arm is called that pulls the needle thread tight after the bulk of it is pulled around the bobbin) to account for all the extra thread that would have to be fed to get around a full spool. The thread fed by the needle must move from one side of the bobbin thread to the other and the only way to get there is to make the trip around the bobbin.

A chain-stitch machine grabs the thread from the needle and holds onto it as the needle makes its up-stroke. During the next down-stroke the loop that is being held onto is positioned so that the needle falls within the loop and the next loop is grabbed from the needle before it makes its up-stroke creating a series of interlocking loops. This is a common way of stroring extension cords that are too short to need a spool but too long to have just lay around.

Edited April 26, 2011 by JoelR

[stanly]

Neat idea Anne. Essentially a wedge when going backwards.

Back to the op topic: The reason it is not a simple retrofit is the thread fed by the needle must be fully wrapped around the bobbin. This would require a much longer travel for the takeup bar (or whatever the arm is called that pulls the needle thread tight after the bulk of it is pulled around the bobbin) to account for all the extra thread that would have to be fed to get around a full spool. The thread fed by the needle must move from one side of the bobbin thread to the other and the only way to get there is to make the trip around the bobbin.

A chain-stitch machine grabs the thread from the needle and holds onto it as the needle makes its up-stroke. During the next down-stroke the loop that is being held onto is positioned so that the needle falls within the loop and the next loop is grabbed from the needle before it makes its up-stroke creating a series of interlocking loops. This is a common way of stroring extension cords that are too short to need a spool but too long to have just lay around.

Thanks for getting back to this:

para 1- I'm having a tough time visualizing this - don't suppose u have an illustration handy?

pars 2- U know the chainstitch I am talking about is 2 thread, NOT daisychain?

[Art]

I understand what you are talking about, it is a double chainstitch machine. I guess you can compare it to a serger where the bottom thread goes through a tube to the looper. In this type of stitch the looper thread is put through and around the upper loops by the looper, first outside the top loop and then inside the top loop forming the next outside loop (the needle and thread come down through the loop). Here again, there is an interaction of the loops, not an actual lockstitch where the top and bottom threads have to "dance" or go around each other to form the lock.

I don't know if I explained that too well, go look at a serger.

Art

Thanks for getting back to this:

para 1- I'm having a tough time visualizing this - don't suppose u have an illustration handy?

pars 2- U know the chainstitch I am talking about is 2 thread, NOT daisychain?