Cowboy Button Knot Issues And What Books Are Best?

[bex DK]

I've got a couple of the Grant books and I found a photo tutorial online and whatever directions I try to use (and whether I use lace or paracord), I keep ending up with sections in the middle of my cowboy button knot where things have gone very wrong and I have strands crossing 3 or 4 instead of the 2 they're supposed to. I think my trouble is related to the transition from the top half of the knot to the bottom half of the knot. I especially had issues where my ending of a strand was meeting the start of the next strand over. Those didn't always match up where they should in terms of over-under--I was able to get to the right strand. Part of my problem is the Grant book doesn't show or explain how to work the bottom half of the knot on the second time down AT ALL. It says over two under two for the top and splitting parallel pairs, but when I get to the bottom there are no pairs to split, so I tried over one under one like the pdf I found online said. But it's going wrong somewhere in there and I haven't yet managed to figure out how. I will keep trying.

I am looking into investing in some other books (or putting them on my xmas wish list and hoping my parents will spoil me), but I'd really like to master this knot in the near future. I do pretty well with tied turks heads and such, but have more trouble with the braided variants of the knots.

I have found that lace crowns much more nicely than the paracord, but I had more luck with 4 different colors of paracord helpign me keep track of my twists and stuff and making sure I hit the right strand at the end. I've done most of my knot practicing on a mandrel, but I ahd to switch to a piece of 6mm rope when I did the leather because my mandrels are too thick. I probably need to work out some mandrels that are pinnable as opposed to the plastic pipe I am using now, so I can better keep the shape on some of the knots that are teasing me.

I am going to keep at it, but if anyone had any tips or could point me at other freely available resources, I'd really appreciate it. Most of my searching on this group about knots pointed to links that were broken.

I'd also appreciate some advice on what books are most worth the money. My budget is VERY tight so I can't just get everything I want and since I'm in Europe, no interlibrary loan to hope could track one down for studying in advance. I definitely do best with photo or diagram and writing combined. I cannot learn well from video. I often lose track of where I am and need to compare my work to several stages to find the right spot. Video would drive me bonkers. I want to learn some different varieties of the fancier applied knots for doing both in leather lace and in cord on rope tack. I can't get decent rawhide lace over here and my health makes it too difficult for me to cope with making it myself. I did manage many of the turks heads and pretty well understood expanding them as well, but I'd like something that would help me comprehend the different weave types that enable adding a second color.

In the mean time I will keep pounding away at practicing and maybe if I practice enough different pineapple knots I will start beign able to figure it out on my own. If there were other knots that I should master to work up to the cowboy button and might help me understand it better, I'd also appreciate that advice. But the only books I have right now are Ashton and Grant and I haven't gotten into the diagraming way of tying them.

Maybe someone who can do this knot felt like quickly braiding up a 4 strand one with only one twist in each half and each strand a different color and taking clear photos? Preferably leaving the ends visible at the initial connecting point, not cutting them off so I can better find the initial transition (I get that I'm supposed to work some backwards and end them all different places after that but I need to master it intially first). Maybe if I match my colors to someone else's colors and can compare what's over and under what along the way it would be easier to figure out hwere I'm going wrong.

[oltoot]

Brian Neubert's early CD shows how to do a short cowboy button by weaving. I've seen pictures of Gail Hought with a bosal in progress and she is using the weaving method so I would expect that it would in there. She seems to be employing some string management techniques that would probably be time savers when working under any kind of time pressure. Prior to seeing these things I was trying to learn Bruce Grants method of wrapping and tying and not doing real well but those two experiences set me on a path to a good place. I would offer one piece of unsolicited advice. When weaving the foundation, remember that your first pass is to have quite a bit of space between each string as it is only the start, not the finish, and adjust the angle of your foundation strings for smaller and larger places to cover. AND where you plan to have multi-colored interweaves, even more space between 1st strings to make room for the interweaves. AND a vote for leather (roo or latigo or?) for the nose buttons and other large (many stringed) knots are too demanding to add the pressure that comes from trying to keep lotsa rawhide cased 'just right'.

[bex DK]

Thanks! Rawhide isn't really an option for me anyway, as I can't handle cutting it all myself and haven't been able to find it precut here in a quality I'd want to use. Too expensive to import, although I may consider looking for some for stuff-for-ourselves on my next visit to family in the US. And I'm not planning on making bosals at this point at all, but more on using the decorative knots in other ways. With the problems I already have with my hands, I doubt I'd do well even with all the leather and roo braiding on a bosal. Not with keeping things tight enough. Although who knows what might tempt me once I get a little more practice.

My project of the moment that I'm experimenting with is very nontraditional. A rope rein in a romal style but I want to put some paracord decorations on it and use knots to cover the spliced eyes, as decorations other places, and a sliding knot at the top as well. Our climate here is very damp, partly from being close to the sea but also because of copious rain. We've bought a decent braided leather romal for my husband, but we end up never using it because it feels too valuable for heading out into the sea, sand, and the inevitable mud. So I'm playing with making similar use options that we don't have to care so much about but still might look interesting. Planning on chains for weight to help balance the bit, although marine grade rope isn't exactly lightweight.

Leather would look much better than paracord for decorative knots but would lose the advantages of moisture tolerance and ease of cleaning. Although I might end up back there anyway if the paracord is too thick to end up with an attractive knot on the rope I'm using. But if it is all polyester and nylon, I can throw it in a bucket of water as needed and don't even need to store it in the living room or furnace room to keep the mold off.

But back to the knots I am struggling with. Grant says the one of them is the same as the double gaucho knot of two passes from the other book. Well, I've managed to tie that one (although it requires I fix a few of the loops in the start of the knot, as otherwise it gets way too tight in the middle by sliding on the mandrel). So last night I took colored string and ran it through the tied knot to replicate the 4 strand method. I am keeping that as a reference, so when I get confused, I can study it to see how a string worked when it met itself and on the subsequent passes. Attaching a pic of that, although it looks a bit messy with the string transitions in the middle.

Tried braiding it one more time after that and it went wrong again in the middle, but I may have figured it out. I am missing a string somehow. I end up odd in the middle so when a strand meets the start of the next strand over, they don't quite line up. I think it is one off. So I will experiment more later today and try taking the one on top when I work down and twist it around one more time. I had some trouble mastering tying the knot as well because of the need to be 1 and a half times around, crossing two, but then the next passes don't come as far down. So I suspect it is a similar issue here... that I am being TOO precise in making my rounds even and instead need an extra pass with one string. Not that I'm sure any of that makes sense in writing.

[bex DK]

Finally got one to meet up right. I threw most of the directions away and worked off my stringed knot. Using 4 color strings to help me learn to match everything up right. Now the fun will be managing the knot properly in only one color, then comes adding length, etc., etc.

I didn't bury the ends because I will be pulling it apart and reusing the strings for more practice. No point ending up with a zillion useless knots and wasting all that cord.

Posting it only because if someone else is having trouble, maybe my photo will help them and save them from having to string up a knot themselves.

I was wrong earlier about where my problem was--my real problem was tht I was paralleling the wrong string.

Edited September 6, 2014 by bex DK

[bucksnort]

On the advice of a couple of braiders I respect, I recently purchased Enrique Capone's 1st book. I liked it so much that I requested his 2nd book as a gift idea. They are about $26.00 here in the US. Both are easy to follow & have knots & braids you won't find elsewhere. Just search his name on the net & you'll find his site. Sounds like your pretty solid on the turks head base knot. Once you really understand the mechanics of that it becomes a lot easier to move on to the different interweaves. Good luck. Tenacity is the name of the game. Buck

[KnotHead]

If I may inject here. I have been using two books over the years. I started out using Tom Hall's book Introduction to Turks Heads book. It has full illustrations within his book. Using the illustrations in this book is a key to learning the turks head knots along with the interweaves.

Sold here is the cheapest I could find,

http://www.ubraidit.com/supplies-detail.php?item=41

You'll have to google this next one for yourself. I have also been using Ron Edwards book Round Knots Advanced Leather Work Volume 2. This is sold through Ram Skull Press out of Australia. This is not cheap by all means. But is a great book to have along with Tom Hall's book. These are the two books I refer back to the most, even over the years I still use them. I have to get another one of Tom's books because of the use and abuse I have inflicted upon it. LOL...

Brian...

[oltoot]

Suggestion:

Start a practice knot with longer than necessary strings and braid the base to wherever your covering knot is projected to end; then,

Take one or more of the strings from the beginning portion of the knot clear through until they exit the base knot; then,

Turn the ends back on the other end so that they meet the desired path back through the knot; then,

Study the way that looks so you can begin to focus on turning back the "right" way.

AND try to duplicate this on increasingly longer knots until you have that part of it "down"

[bucksnort]

Thanks Brian, I'll put those books on my wish list. I always like to have an answer ready when someone asks me what I want for a gift. Buck