Help Me Choose The Right Sewing Machine

[Stocksuspension]

im in the market for a sewing machine. My intentions/duties for the machine consist of automotive leather upholstery and leather punching bags. I think the heavy duty leather punching bags have 1/4-3/8 veg tan leather. not sure. i was thinking about at cobra class 17. can you guys suggest any machine/ suggestions/

[Art]

I'd pay a couple hundred more and get the Class 18, they use 111 foot sets which come in styles for hundreds of applications, and are fairly inexpensive. I have an 18 and it is great. Wife likes it too for quilting.

Art

im in the market for a sewing machine. My intentions/duties for the machine consist of automotive leather upholstery and leather punching bags. I think the heavy duty leather punching bags have 1/4-3/8 veg tan leather. not sure. i was thinking about at cobra class 17. can you guys suggest any machine/ suggestions/

[Stocksuspension]

i can still use that on garment / upholstery leather right

[Art]

Sure, from 1oz up to about 20oz.

Art

i can still use that on garment / upholstery leather right

[Stocksuspension]

is that too much machine for what i need? is there other machines that fit my needs? what should i look for? I know i need a walking foot.. whats recommended a post style machine for flat bench?

[Art]

A post or cylinder arm would add considerably to the machine cost in that class of machine. Since you assemble a lot of bags inside out, a special machine may not be necessary. The needle feed on the Class 18 can help in feeding difficult materials, the Class 17 doesn't have that.

Art

is that too much machine for what i need? is there other machines that fit my needs? what should i look for? I know i need a walking foot.. whats recommended a post style machine for flat bench?

[Stocksuspension]

A post or cylinder arm would add considerably to the machine cost in that class of machine. Since you assemble a lot of bags inside out, a special machine may not be necessary. The needle feed on the Class 18 can help in feeding difficult materials, the Class 17 doesn't have that.

Art

thank you for your reply/ experience. looks like im leaning towards a class 18

[Stocksuspension]

how does the consew 223r compare to the cobra class 18? can the 223r do the same as the cobra?

[Art]

The 18 is a flat bed, the 223r is a cylinder arm. Upholstery is more flat work, but the 223R-1 is a nice machine, a bit more expensive than the 18. The 223 R-1 has a safety clutch, not sure about the 223R. The class 18 will be set-up for leatherwork, the 223 probably not.

Art

how does the consew 223r compare to the cobra class 18? can the 223r do the same as the cobra?

[Stocksuspension]

thanks again art. Today i was in donwtown la getting some service work done to my juki. I was talking to the owner about what machine would compliment my interests. He recommended the consew 206rb1 and the juki lu-563. i asked him about techsew and he said he wouldnt put his money on it??? That he would rather stick to an established brand (adler.pfaff,consew etc)/ which brings me to my next question. Im hoping not to exceed a budget of 1500. the tecsew 2700 seems like a magnificent machine but i keep thinking about the gentlemens comments. any input on techsew?

[Art]

I can't help you there as I have never had my hands on one. The 18 is in your price range and I know where it comes from, it is a very good machine. The Highlead machine that is the cylinder arm version of the Class 18 wholesales for more than the 2700 sells for retail. Wonder why that is? Don't get led around by price, buy something good and you will have it forever.

Art

thanks again art. Today i was in donwtown la getting some service work done to my juki. I was talking to the owner about what machine would compliment my interests. He recommended the consew 206rb1 and the juki lu-563. i asked him about techsew and he said he wouldnt put his money on it??? That he would rather stick to an established brand (adler.pfaff,consew etc)/ which brings me to my next question. Im hoping not to exceed a budget of 1500. the tecsew 2700 seems like a magnificent machine but i keep thinking about the gentlemens comments. any input on techsew?

[Stocksuspension]

well today i spoke with cobra steve on the phone. He recommended the class 4, Looks like im going to have to go with out lunch for a while. the budget begins

[Stocksuspension]

one more dumb questiion..... where are cobra sewing machines made?

[Art]

A top quality factory in China, they are pretty good machines, I have a few.

Art

one more dumb questiion..... where are cobra sewing machines made?

[Stocksuspension]

ive finally saved up enough mula . Will the cobra class 4 be able sew 4-5oz leather with what i believe is a #69 thread? will that be out the machines range? also wich would you choose.... cobra class 4 or cowboy sew 4500?

[Wizcrafts]

Both the Cobra and Cowboy stitchers you mentioned will sew 4-5 ounce leather, with #69 bonded nylon thread, if you insert a #18 needle and lower the pressure on the pressor feet. You may have to increase the tension on the bobbin spring and reduce the tension on the top thread, to balance the position of the knots.

The quality and construction of both brands is equal in my estimation, so I would see who offered me the best price and accessories package, shipped. Our members who have bought both Cowboy and Cobra machines are very happy with them. Both companies offer personal assistance on the phone, after the sale. Both stock accessories, needles, thread, parts, etc and have very similar pricing structures. Call both dealers and ask them to describe their machines in detail to you. Maybe one of them will offer something the other doesn't, like a servo motor with a bit of free motion before it engages, or stainless steel pressor feet and throat plates that won't stain moist veg-tan leather.

Last, but definitely not least, both Bob Kovar and Steve Tayrien are great guys and knowledgeable sewing machine gurus. Your good money will not be wasted if you purchase either of these brands of stitchers.

[Stocksuspension]

is the class 4 and cb4500 made by the same manufacturer? is there a website i can read up on the cb4500?

[Art]

They are not mady by the same manufacturer.

Cobras are custom made by a full time sewing machine company. These machines are excellent in manufacture and operation. Steve has a long history in the sewing machine business and is quite knowledgeable and eager to please. I have a few of these machines and they are excellent.

Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, Ltd.

Qing County,

Hebei, China

Cowboy Sewing Machines are made by a toy manufacturer who does sewing machines from excess capacity, they are what can be called a conglomerate as companies in China go. While not a full time sewing machine company, it is quite commonplace for factories to fill their excess capacity with some other endeavor. They purchased quite a bit of Japanese CNC machinery several years ago and have been putting it to good use, the Cowboy machines are an example.

New Century Holding Group Co., Ltd.

618 Gongren Road West,

Jiaojiang District,

Taizhou,

Zhejiang Province

China

From what I have seen, the Cowboy machines are pretty well made and work quite well, Ryan, Bob, and Bobbie are good folks and quite knowledgeable.

Art

is the class 4 and cb4500 made by the same manufacturer? is there a website i can read up on the cb4500?

[Rayban]

Geez...I wonder which brand Art favors ???

[Art]

Hi Ray,

Art favors the Cobra machines, only because he knows them well and has a bunch of them. They haven't let me down. I also prefer Campbells for linen work. I also like Highlead machines of which I have three or four.

The Cowboy machines seem to be treating everyone fair, and the USA dealers I know are excellent. I used to import sewing machines (and other stuff) and I know where they come from, believe me, that is a complicated business over there. Both of the machines come from good factories, and I wouldn't have a problem buying either one.

The Chinese show you whatever face you want to see, and generally tell you what you want to hear. They will stick companies between the customer and them to do this. It is just the way they do business over there. You need to deal with a reputable distributor so you won't get sold a pile of crap, or worse, a machine that won't do the job you need it to do. There are more ways to get burned by doing business in China than there are at a flame thrower convention.

Art

Geez...I wonder which brand Art favors ???

[neelsaddlery]

They are not mady by the same manufacturer.

Cobras are custom made by a full time sewing machine company. These machines are excellent in manufacture and operation. Steve has a long history in the sewing machine business and is quite knowledgeable and eager to please. I have a few of these machines and they are excellent.

Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, Ltd.

Qing County,

Hebei, China

Cowboy Sewing Machines are made by a toy manufacturer who does sewing machines from excess capacity, they are what can be called a conglomerate as companies in China go. While not a full time sewing machine company, it is quite commonplace for factories to fill their excess capacity with some other endeavor. They purchased quite a bit of Japanese CNC machinery several years ago and have been putting it to good use, the Cowboy machines are an example.

New Century Holding Group Co., Ltd.

618 Gongren Road West,

Jiaojiang District,

Taizhou,

Zhejiang Province

China

From what I have seen, the Cowboy machines are pretty well made and work quite well, Ryan, Bob, and Bobbie are good folks and quite knowledgeable.

Art

Art:

Thank you for providing some additional insight to the readers about where you believe some of the sewing machine importers are purchasing their machinery in China. Your contributions to this forum have been invaluable.

I wanted to provide some additional information to our readers and some clarification as to where Cowboy Sewing Machines are manufactured. Cowboy Sewing Machines are not manufactured in any way by New Century Holding Group. You are correct that New Century Holding Group is a conglomeration of companies that are into many different areas of manufacturing. The do manufacture toys, as well as many other products. One of the offspring companies of New Century Group is an import/export company that specializes in assisting companies that do not have direct licensure to export from China. This is the part of New Century Holding Group that is associated with Cowboy Sewing Machine. The import/export division of New Century Holding Group prepares the necessary documents for Cowboy to export our sewing machines to our USA division and also our satellite offices in Australia and in Europe.

Cobra, Artisan, and pretty much all of the other USA manufacturers of sewing machines do not have direct licensure with the Chinese government to export their products purchased in China to the United States. Therefore, they use an export broker to work on their behalf. The export broker receives the payment from the seller in the USA and then processes it to send to the manufacturer. In turn, they receive a small percentage of the wire amount. They also act as the legal liason between the Chinese government, the trading company in China, and the client in the USA. This is the capacity the New Century Group serves for Cowboy Sewing Machines.

Again, New Century Holding Group is not involved in the manufacturer of pur products in any way.

As to where Cowboy Sewing machines are made, we purchase our machines form many of the same factories used by the major sellers of sewing machines in the USA. You had mentioned Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, LTD. We actually to quite a lot of business with this company in China, along with many other sewing machinery manufacturers. The identical nature of the products being offered by all of the sewing machine sellers here in the United States should prove sufficient to the buyers of machinery here in the USA that these machines are coming from the same factory. For instance, if one were to look at the AK-20 strap cutting machines being offer by Cobra, Cowboy, and Artisan, one would see that they are exactly the same. These machines are not made by another manufacturer in China. One would conclude that they are all coming from the same place, and they would be quite correct.

If order quantities are sufficient, the major sellers of sewing machines in the USA can dictate some terms to the manufacturer regadring parts used and assembly methods. For many of our "bread and butter" machines, ones which we sell a lot of, we do this as well. Details like what painting, casting, and the origin of the parts included in the sewing machine can all be negotiated with the manufacturer. Similarly to Cobra and Artisan, we also dictate these terms. So in effect, and as you mentioned ealier, the machines are custom manufactured to meet the needs of the individual seller in the USA.

Cobra machines are not exclusively made by the manufacturer you mentioned. They are made by several different factories in China. Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, LTD. is just one of the manufacturers that Cobra's agent uses to source for machinery.

Hope this provided some additional information to our readers about the origin of Cowboy Sewing Machines, and where they are manufactured. We buy from several dozen manufacturers of sewing machines in Asia. Some of our machinery is custom manufactured to our own specifications, while others are just common machines carried by all of the major sellers here in the USA. We also have a small manufacturing facility of own where we produce some specialty machinery and equipment. This facility is owned and managed by Mr. Bill Jiang, one of the co-founders of Cowboy Sewing Machines.

If anybody would like to contact me directly for additional information on the matter, please feel free to do so. I can be reached directly toll free at 1-866-507-8926.

is the class 4 and cb4500 made by the same manufacturer? is there a website i can read up on the cb4500?

Yes, you can go to our website at www.cowboysew.com. It has a complete listing of all of our machinery.

[Art]

Ryan,

You still didn't tell the op who makes the cb4500. Like I said before, Sewing machines in China are a complicated business. The Cobra 4 is made by Zhiqiang, that is what he asked about. The AK-20 is made by AnKai in Hunan province. I have to fill out the import paperwork on everything imported, I have to specify point of origin, so I have to know where it comes from. Even Highlead (Huigong No.3) doesn't make everything they sell under the Highlead name. New Century does have quite a bit of manufacturing capacity, but they are not the ones holding the export license for Cowboy, it is Xinyi Cowboy Sewing Equipment Co.,Ltd, which doesn't have more than a minimal real manufacturing capacity. Bill Jiang came on Leatherworker a few years ago and stated Cowboy used to buy rebranded from everyone, but now made everything themselves. This seems to be a different story from what you just told. I took him at his word and drew the conclusion that New Century Holding was doing the work.

So, who makes the cb4500?

Art

Art:

Thank you for providing some additional insight to the readers about where you believe some of the sewing machine importers are purchasing their machinery in China. Your contributions to this forum have been invaluable.

I wanted to provide some additional information to our readers and some clarification as to where Cowboy Sewing Machines are manufactured. Cowboy Sewing Machines are not manufactured in any way by New Century Holding Group. You are correct that New Century Holding Group is a conglomeration of companies that are into many different areas of manufacturing. The do manufacture toys, as well as many other products. One of the offspring companies of New Century Group is an import/export company that specializes in assisting companies that do not have direct licensure to export from China. This is the part of New Century Holding Group that is associated with Cowboy Sewing Machine. The import/export division of New Century Holding Group prepares the necessary documents for Cowboy to export our sewing machines to our USA division and also our satellite offices in Australia and in Europe.

Cobra, Artisan, and pretty much all of the other USA manufacturers of sewing machines do not have direct licensure with the Chinese government to export their products purchased in China to the United States. Therefore, they use an export broker to work on their behalf. The export broker receives the payment from the seller in the USA and then processes it to send to the manufacturer. In turn, they receive a small percentage of the wire amount. They also act as the legal liason between the Chinese government, the trading company in China, and the client in the USA. This is the capacity the New Century Group serves for Cowboy Sewing Machines.

Again, New Century Holding Group is not involved in the manufacturer of pur products in any way.

As to where Cowboy Sewing machines are made, we purchase our machines form many of the same factories used by the major sellers of sewing machines in the USA. You had mentioned Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, LTD. We actually to quite a lot of business with this company in China, along with many other sewing machinery manufacturers. The identical nature of the products being offered by all of the sewing machine sellers here in the United States should prove sufficient to the buyers of machinery here in the USA that these machines are coming from the same factory. For instance, if one were to look at the AK-20 strap cutting machines being offer by Cobra, Cowboy, and Artisan, one would see that they are exactly the same. These machines are not made by another manufacturer in China. One would conclude that they are all coming from the same place, and they would be quite correct.

If order quantities are sufficient, the major sellers of sewing machines in the USA can dictate some terms to the manufacturer regadring parts used and assembly methods. For many of our "bread and butter" machines, ones which we sell a lot of, we do this as well. Details like what painting, casting, and the origin of the parts included in the sewing machine can all be negotiated with the manufacturer. Similarly to Cobra and Artisan, we also dictate these terms. So in effect, and as you mentioned ealier, the machines are custom manufactured to meet the needs of the individual seller in the USA.

Cobra machines are not exclusively made by the manufacturer you mentioned. They are made by several different factories in China. Zhiqiang Sewing Machine Company, LTD. is just one of the manufacturers that Cobra's agent uses to source for machinery.

Hope this provided some additional information to our readers about the origin of Cowboy Sewing Machines, and where they are manufactured. We buy from several dozen manufacturers of sewing machines in Asia. Some of our machinery is custom manufactured to our own specifications, while others are just common machines carried by all of the major sellers here in the USA. We also have a small manufacturing facility of own where we produce some specialty machinery and equipment. This facility is owned and managed by Mr. Bill Jiang, one of the co-founders of Cowboy Sewing Machines.

If anybody would like to contact me directly for additional information on the matter, please feel free to do so. I can be reached directly toll free at 1-866-507-8926.

Yes, you can go to our website at www.cowboysew.com. It has a complete listing of all of our machinery.

[DRat40]

Hi All , I've looked and Steve is a great guy and backs it all, I will most likley get one of his but not to put a rench into this but Weaver just sent me a add for their new lock sticher,about the same

price as Steve's class 4 . I just would like a dependable machine that will hold up , I dont realy care were and how makes it, I do enjoy every commit about all of these sewing machines.it's great .

Thanks

DR

[Art]

I had heard that they were looking to China for a 441 clone, has it finally happened? I know with the new investors they would be working the clones before long. Vern is a great guy on Adler machines, give him a little time to figure out the 441. The machines might be the same price, but add up all the accessories you get with either one. There is also a possibility they will be doing an Adler Clone, there are a few good ones out there,.

Art

Hi All , I've looked and Steve is a great guy and backs it all, I will most likley get one of his but not to put a rench into this but Weaver just sent me a add for their new lock sticher,about the same

price as Steve's class 4 . I just would like a dependable machine that will hold up , I dont realy care were and how makes it, I do enjoy every commit about all of these sewing machines.it's great .

Thanks

DR

[neelsaddlery]

Art:

I do appreciate your candid comments. However, it seems that you are are bit confused with regard to the nature of the operations and scope of business of Cowboy Sewing Machines. I would not expect you to know the details of our operations in China, since you have no affiliation with our company in any way. Please allow me to clarify on some of the points which you discussed below:

1. Art, if you will look closely at the post I made, it was in direct reply to your post, and not an attempt to answer the op's query about where the machines were made.

2. On every piece of import paperwork which I hold New Century Holding Group is listed as the Exporter/Shipper. This is because Xinyi Cowboy Sewing Machinery DOES NOT hold direct licensure to export any sewing machinery from China. As I said before, we work with an offspring company of New Century Holding Group that specializes in working for import/export companies that do not hold direct licensure to export from China. A similar scenario is such with Jennifer Wang. As I am sure you well know, Jennifer Wang is the executive officer of Hiress International Corp. Hiress International holds direct licensure with the Chinese Government to export products from China. Jennifer is also the chief buying agent for Cobra and sources machinery and equipment for Steve in China. When Steve was first looking at starting Cobra, he called me and inquired at great depth about the importing process in China and whom would be the best source to buy equipment and machinery in China. Jeniifer's name was brought up in the discussion. Jennifer used to work very closely with Jerry at Artisan and was one of his main contacts in China and worked with him for many years. That is one of the reasons why Steve chose to go with her. She already had access to all of the factories that Jerry had used, and knew many of the quality standards that were necessary for the sewing machine business in the USA.

3. Unless you are licensed US Customs broker, (I know Steve uses the services of an import broker in California) you would not fill out any paperwork for the importation of goods into the United States. US customs does allow for the informal application to be made for importation of shipments into the USA valued at less than $2000.00 USD. For shipment valued at more than $2000.00 USD formal entry must be made and the documents must be processed with US customs. US customs does allow for persons that are not licensed import brokers to do this, but the process is very long and time consuming. It states very directly on the US customs website that for formal importation of goods into the US, it is highly advised that a licenced import broker be obtained. In both cases of formal and informal entry, IT IS THE US CUSTOMS OFFICER THAT WILL FILL OUT THE NECESSARY PAPERWORK TO CLEAR THE SHIPMENT. It is the responsibility of the importer to make sure that the documents presented to the customs officer are correctly printed, but ALL OF THESE DOCUMENTS ARE PREPARED BY THE EXPORTER OF RECORD IN CHINA. I used to clear all of my shipments by myself with US Customs. However, after about the first 3 shipments, they started to red flag all of my shipments because frankly they do not want individuals to clear the goods themselves. US customs much prefers the automated interface that they have set up with licensed import brokers. This is why I know of no importer in the United States that will attempt to clear a shipment through US customs without hiring the servies of a professional and licensed import broker.

4. Nowhere on the Bill of Lading, Commercial Invoice, Packing List, or insurance policy is it required to list the name of the MANUFACTURER OF THE GOODS. What is required is the name of the exporter and the consignee to which the goods are going, as well as the country of origin, a description of the goods as well as quantity, weights, and so forth. NOTHING ELSE. However, recent US Customs legislation requires an ISF 10+2 form to be filled out and filed with US Customs 24 hours prior to the vessel sailing. In this form the name and address of the manufacturer of the goods is required. However, it is required by law that this form be filled out by the exporter of the goods in China. The importer is not allowed to fill out the form in any manner.

5. I am also glad that you referenced the post made by Mr. Bill Jiang a few years back on the leatherworker.com. What Bill said at the time of the post was very true. At the time, Bill was the factory manager and one of the principle investors of one of our biggest suppliers of sewing machines. He worked very closely with them for a number of years, but both our relationship with this supplier and also his was dissolved a year or so ago. At the time, a large portion of the machinery which we were offering for sale was made by this factory. One of conditions of employment and investment that Bill had with this factory is that he would have exclusive control of the US and European markets. So Bill's offspring company, Cowboy Sewing Machines, did procure machinery and equipment from a factory in which he was directly employed, and also invested in. So, his statement that Cowboy Sewing Machines were made in our own factory was indeed quite true at the time. However, becuase his relationship with the factory has dissolved, we no longer purchase any of our machinery from this factory.

6. I am personally fascinated with your understanding of the inner workings of Xinyi Cowboy Sewing Machinery Company. I am impressed that you can make the statement that we have only a minimal manufacturing capacity since you have never visited our 8000 square foot factory/warehouse in China, nor seen any or our product being assembled at that factory.

7. Many of the other readers on this board have commented that it seems that you very adamently promote the Cobra line of equipment. While I can make no direct or indirect claims about any of the information or rumors that I have heard about your direct or indirect involvement as an investor in Cobra sewing machines, it is nevertheless a point of interest and also a topic of conversation which I have held with virtually every sewing machine dealer in the country.

8. Art, rather than going to great extent to attempt to dissuade buyers of sewing machinery away from other dealers which you perceive to be a threat, it would be better to stay with the facts about what each seller has to offer. I am not even sure that the the readers of this forum would care to know the names of the factories where the machinery is made. What they do want to know is that they are getting a good quality sewing machine from a dealer that has honesty and integrity. The names of the factories who make the machines are asked only as a reference point to determine how similar one dealers product is to another.

Ryan,

You still didn't tell the op who makes the cb4500. Like I said before, Sewing machines in China are a complicated business. The Cobra 4 is made by Zhiqiang, that is what he asked about. The AK-20 is made by AnKai in Hunan province. I have to fill out the import paperwork on everything imported, I have to specify point of origin, so I have to know where it comes from. Even Highlead (Huigong No.3) doesn't make everything they sell under the Highlead name. New Century does have quite a bit of manufacturing capacity, but they are not the ones holding the export license for Cowboy, it is Xinyi Cowboy Sewing Equipment Co.,Ltd, which doesn't have more than a minimal real manufacturing capacity. Bill Jiang came on Leatherworker a few years ago and stated Cowboy used to buy rebranded from everyone, but now made everything themselves. This seems to be a different story from what you just told. I took him at his word and drew the conclusion that New Century Holding was doing the work.

So, who makes the cb4500?

Art

Edited March 25, 2011 by neelsaddlery