Vinegaroon Questions

[bitone40]

Hello and good morning folks, I have some questions on a batch of 'roon that I made up a couple of weeks ago and let me tell you the process I used

I made two holsters and diped them on different days, the first one got diped and then BS bath followed and allowed to dry for 10-15 min and then proceeded with the molding and it came out great, then let air dry for about 15 hrs, well while reading here while I was at work and holster was drying, I read that I forgot to give it a fresh water bath after the BS bath and it could cause burning so when I got home it was completely dry and applied two light coats of oil and it is sitting as is, it looks great and have no complaints about it, now the other one is a different story, I rooned it ,BS bath for about 5 min and fresh water bath this time and let sit for 20 min and then molded and let dry and then oiled, now here is my problem, between the two coats of oil, white spots started to form on both sides and on the insides, I put another layer of oil and they dissappered so now I'm waiting to see results , what are the white spots and why are they only on the holster that I added water to? Is it mold or is it oils seeping out or what, is the holster ruined? These are my 1st two dippings of roon besides all the test pieces that came out looking good, the only thing I can think of is that the problem holster was done the day after the first one and I used the same soda solution and it was probably a lot weeker the next day, and the swhite spots do not rub out or buff out

Thanks for all he help and sorry so long to read

BenBen

[bitone40]

Thanks LW, no more white spots after second coat of oil, I guess we will never know what it was, or at least I wont

[particle]

Sorry you didn't get any feedback - I just made my first batch of the stuff, and haven't strained it yet so I haven't gotten to use it thus far. I was hoping someone would chime in with some feedback as I'm needing to figure out what the proper work flow is.

Did the white spots go away on their own? Or did you have to buff them out?

[bitone40]

Thanks , yea after the second coat of neets oil, they went away on there own, I ran a bunch of test strips of leather in the roon and never applied a clear wash water to any of them and never had any problems , well the one that I did a fresh water bath after the baking soda is the one that has the white spots, the work flow I did on the good one was assemble and and stitch, dip in roon for one minute two times and came out solid black, went straight into baking soda dip for about two to three minutes and pull out and what ever didn't get soaked in in two minutes I just wiped it with a paper towel and let sit for 10 to 15 minutes then mould, I let it air dry for about 15 hrs and oiled, it took that oil in so fast but that's all I put and then about 10hrs later put the second coat and let it sit and dry, on this holster I put a light coat of tan kote and it is looking good so far , but going to put a second coat on it later today and see if its any good to use in the future, the out come so far is good but ill see what it does.

Hey Eric I got some questions for you if you don't mind, I saw your new pics and the edgeing is looking awesome now, what are you doing now to them, I have been buying all the supplies to try the same technique as hidepounder and got the rest of them all last night , thanks again

Ben

Edited July 7, 2010 by bitone40

[particle]

Thanks for the workflow description. I'll give my batch a try in the next couple of days hopefully...

For burnishing dyed holsters, I simply dampen the edges with a sponge with water right before I do the forming. Once the edges are damp, I run the edges over my burnisher that's mounted in my drill press (wooden dowel with some grooves filed in it with a round rasp). All I'm basically trying to accomplish at this point is to round the edges up a bit, and smooth it out some - basically getting the basic rounded shape around the edges. After forming, I put the holster in the oven to harden the leather, and then air dry it in front of a fan overnight. At this point, it's very difficult to round and shape the edges because the leather doesn't manipulate very easily - this is why I do the initial edge shaping before the molding process. After it has dried in front of a fan overnight, I'll dye the edges (I always use black, unless it's a natural holster), then in an hour or two I burnish with Gum. Lately I've scrubbed a little beeswax on the edge (instead of Gum) and burnished again with a wooden dowel with a strip of canvas taped onto it (it wraps around the dowel when you turn on the drill).

For a natural holster, I'll spend a little more time initially to get some good burnished color before the forming process, then do it again with water after the holster has been formed and dried. Then I may hit it with some light brown dye to darken it a bit more if the burnishing didn't work very well.

There are probably MUCH better methods than what I do - I'm just too lazy to order any other products.

[bitone40]

Cool, so thats basically what you are doing in ur video, I was doing the same thing until I tried using beeswax after the dying and and before the final finish until I used it on my businesses card holder and my new carry rig and saw it cracking and peeling off, I should have known,so I wouldn't recommended using it if until you test it out, I do have some half and half of pariffin and beeswax that I have to try also, so I may go back o the gum if I can't get the new way going. Thanks again

Ben

[ChuckBurrows]

I rooned it ,BS bath for about 5 min and fresh water bath this time and let sit for 20 min

The BS Bath at 5 minutes is far too long and unneccessary and very possibly counterproductive since the possibility of "burning" it is increased exponentially. I just dip it in the baking soda and water mix (no more than 1/8 cupt to 1/2-3/4 gallons of fresh water) is needed and then rinse in cold clear water. As to the 20 minutes in the fresh water bath - if you are doing that to case the leather OK, but otherwise again not needed, just a good rinse and wipe off the excess...........

The white spots may have been/probably were excess baking soda oozing out of the leather............

[bitone40]

The BS Bath at 5 minutes is far too long and unneccessary and very possibly counterproductive .

The white spots may have been/probably were excess baking soda oozing out of the leather............

good call on that , that may be what happened because the one that didnt have spots on it was just a quick dip into to bath and i thought it needed more time soaking , i guess i was wrong

and the 20 min to sit was meaning to sit out and dry to be moulded it was just rinsed under the faucet to get all the stuff off , sorry i should have clarified

thanks for your help

ben

[particle]

Well, I tried my Vinegaroon a couple days ago and tried to form my holsters last night. Couple things struck me....

First, this stuff stinks! Is it possible to get rid of that smell??

The leather - I dunked it in the roon for maybe 5-10 seconds, let it sit for a minute, then dunked it again just to make sure I had thorough penetration. Then I dunked it for maybe 10 - 20 seconds in a baking soda solution in the ratio ChuckBurrows mentioned a couple posts back. Lastly, I rinsed it thoroughly in water and set it on a paper towel to dry.

I was a little dismayed to see how much discoloration transferred to the paper towel. I'm not sure what is transferring (since it's not dye) - perhaps some of the "stuff" in the leather is just oozing out and getting on the paper towel? What threw me was that this eliminates the possibility of roon'ing a holster with white thread AFTER it's already assembled and formed, which brings me to my next point.

I had a very hard time molding the roon'ed leather to the firearm. Even after soaking it for maybe a minute, it just didn't want to form very easily and would hardly hold the shape I was asking it to hold (yes, I said "please..."). I know it's a bit waterproofed when it's rooned, but I'd heard it could still be formed. I'm not entirely sure about that - at least not to the point natural veg-tanned leather is capable of.

So, in the future, If a holster is to have black thread, I'll roon it after it's assembled and formed to the gun. If it's to have white thread, I'll just keep using black dye and dye my pieces prior to assembly.

Anyone have any insight to offer that may be of some help to the smell and forming issue?

[bitone40]

I had a very hard time molding the roon'ed leather to the firearm. Even after soaking it for maybe a minute, it just didn't want to form very easily and would hardly hold the shape I was asking it to hold

Anyone have any insight to offer that may be of some help to the smell and forming issue?

hey particle, did you mold right after you dipped in roon or did you roon' it and the BS bath it and freshwater bath then let dry and then after its all dry did you rewet with fresh water and then mold it ? in all my research i read that everyone was moulding right after the roon'ing process , thats what I did but I did let it dry for about 15-20 min just like I do on a regular holster getting ready to mould , I had no promlems moulding at all , it was just like it had water in it ,

and for the smell I also read the BS bath is supposed to kill the smell , if I remember right the smell is the roon' still activating on the leather and it is supposed to go away in a couple of days , uh the smell is there on my holsters after two weeks so I dont know whats going on . I still have to mess around with it and figure this stuff out .

hope any of this helps or makes sense

ben

[particle]

I actually rooned it, did the whole bathing thing, then let it dry overnight. Then I assembled it, stitched it, then it sat again overnight. Then I soaked it in water and tried to form it - about 2 days after having rooned it. Or should I say "ruined" it, as the case may be! LOL

This was a tooled holster for a customer that's getting married and I'm against a deadline. Shouldn't have tried something new with this one. Live and learn!

[TwinOaks]

First off, vinegaroon isn't a magic solution- dip and presto! There's a few things that need to be done that are only learned by doing. Bitone's batch, Particle's batch and my batch are all a little bit different, and we aren't using the same piece of leather. Also, the 'roon gets better as it ages. My 'roon is at least a year old and I've dropped additional metal in the jar from time to time. As it sits, I can dunk a piece of leather, have it turn black inside 2 minutes, and in 15 minutes there's no smell. The 'roon gets better with age, provided you add enough metal to the brew to completely use up the acid. Ever notice how the vinegarroon smells like vinegar? Keep adding metal to completely reduce the acetic acid (vinegar), and you 'use up' all the stuff making the smell. You also need to give it time. Yes it works after two weeks, but there's still too much acetic acid floating in the brew; so....it smells.

Wet forming should be done while it's wet with 'roon. After forming, toss it in an oven to set it. I use a countertop convection oven, set at 140-150 ish, for about 10 minutes. Then I pull the gun/block from the inside and get it somewhere with moving air. You can place a piece of metal, or even a chilled paper towel inside the holster and it will help pick up the 'sweat' on the inside to speed up drying. Be sure to wipe/replace it from time to time. Once the leather dries, it's somewhat difficult to re-wet, short of total submersion....and even that doesn't work that well.

Here's why- The penetration of the ferric acetate into the leather, seems to push the natural oils and waxes to the surface. That's one of the reasons to oil/condition it after 'rooning. Besides turning black, the piece now acts like you've worked a lot of wax into the surface of the leather- it doesn't want to take moisture. This even effects the flesh side of the leather. As far as stitching.....I use waxed linen thread and hand stitch all my stuff. I haven't had any problems with the vinegaroon discoloring it. Though I don't usually use white thread on black leather, either. The stuff you see dripping off/ soaking off into a towel/rag/etc. is basically 'leather juice', that contains some of the tannins that are displaced. The ferric acetate is still reacting with the tannins, so it comes off as slightly black/blue.

NOTE: When wet molding a 'rooned holster, be sure to either (A) use a blue gun, or ( thoroughly protect the gun. With some of the finishes available, you won't likely see any damage, BUT what about the insides, where there's some drips? I've had to move 'add snaps' (or any other metal hardware) to the end of the assembly list because the 'roon will eat them if it gets on them while wet. Unless you just enjoy refinishing a weapon, don't risk it- especially with a blued finish. It WILL eat the blueing right off, and a good hot blueing (or re-blueing) isn't cheap.

Give the brew some time to season, I think you'll like it more when it's aged a bit.

[bitone40]

Man, thank you very much twinoaks, this is what I have been looking for this whole time, and I think you found my problem, I didn't let it age long enough and didn't use enough metal, I used three full brillo pads to one gallon and as soon as it dissolved, I dipped them, it was about two weeks total wait time, I will add some more pads when I get home, I think that may take the smell away and after some aging.

Twinoaks do you think you can write alittle more on the process after the roon'ing like the baking soda bath etc. and make it a sticky, I tried so hard to find out and research what you said and I think it could benefit others. Thanks again for your expertise on the subject

Ben

[Luke Hatley]

Bitone40.......if you did what you said you did..you dont use Brillo Pads....

use STEEL WOOL PADS.......Brillo pads has soap in them.

[bitone40]

X

Bitone40.......if you did what you said you did..you dont use Brillo Pads....

use STEEL WOOL PADS.......Brillo pads has soap in them.

I stand corrected, I did not use brillo pads, they were the fine 0000 gauge , and one course 00 steel wool pads, I made sure not to use the one with soap, which my wife uses around the house , sorry for the confusion

Ben

[TwinOaks]

I'll see what I can do, but as far as calling my little bit 'o knowledge expertise......long way off. I'm too 'green' to be an expert There's probably 40 pages worth of discussion on just vinegaroon and it's uses. It gets pretty detailed with alternate formulas, chemical analysis, etc. Most of it came from much more knowledgeable members than me. Still, I'll see if I can dig up a bit of info on it- maybe get links to all the threads in one place.