Swivel Knife Blades For The Whole Project?

[ouchmyfinger]

I'm currently using one swivel knife for all of my work, i just got a beader blade from barry king and threw it on an old tandy swivel knife for now. my main knife is a stohlman with a hollow ground angle blade. I'm not getting that thick looking cut with it in my deco cuts so i was looking into getting another with another blade.

I'm mostly doing sheridan so i wanted to know what you guys were using and what you recommend, blades and knifes.

thanks

[kseidel]

Not much need for an angle blade with floral carving. They are nice for figure carving and some lettering, but not for floral work. By controlling the sharp edge of the blade, you can make a variety of different cuts. By keeping a lot of the blade in the leather, you can make long smooth cuts like borders and large arcs, and, by using only the corner you can make very small curves and tight corners. By adjusting the amount of blade in the leather, you can change the look of your cut with minimal effort and achieve much smoother cuts. The "thick" cut you refer to in decorative cuts is achieved by manipulation of the blade, not by a thicker blade. I use the same blade for all my floral work...from cutting in the pattern to final finish cuts. I like Chuck Smith's cobalt blade, thin, straight, 3/8" hollow ground.

Keith

[colttrainer]

I will second what Keith said, only difference is I use a henly blade in 3/8 or 1/2' all thin hollow ground.

[kseidel]

I have the Henley knives as well and like them also. Only significant difference is that Smith's new cobalt blade does not drag and does not need stropped much at all. A very unexpected yet welcome side effect.

Keith

[ouchmyfinger]

i just always liked the angled blade because i could keep the swivel knife straight up and down, ill be trying out that cobalt blade and a new swivel knife soon. i guess i just need to try and step out of my comfort zone and try the straight blade again or maybe my blade is a little thinner than yours.

how do you "manipulate" the blade for wider cuts?

thanks guys

[kseidel]

With the angle blade, you only have the tip or corner of the blade in the leather. It is difficult to make long straight cuts as well as larger curves with an angle blade. They are great for very small corners and fine detail work as in figure carving. With a straight blade, you can have the corner in the leather, and have the option of having more of the blade in the leather as well. The more blade that is contacting the leather, the larger the arc that will be carved smoothly... the knife will follow itself. To clarify, for straight lines like borders, having as much blade in the leather as possible helps make those long straight cuts without waves. For making smaller corners, you simply tip the knife back to have less blade in the leather, and then twist the barrel of the knife. The knife will follow the leading edge of the blade in the leather, and will make a smooth small curve. More blade, larger curves; less blade, smaller curves. To make a finish cut with a wider tip tapering into a fine cut, simply add a little twist when starting the cut with the tip deeper into the leather, then flatten the blade as you go (increasing the amount of blade in the leather) and lighten the pressure. The blade will start deep, then track shallower and make a longer curve. Use caution to avoid forcing the knife forward while making the tighter curves... This causes flat spots and points in your curves. Just twist the barrel of the knife keeping steady downward pressure on the yoke and let the blade follow itself thru the curve. Sounds easier than it is, especially when one is used to pushing the knife. It takes practice to master, but well worth the effort,,, and removes much of the fatigue associated with carving.

Keith

[Bob Blea]

To make a finish cut with a wider tip tapering into a fine cut, simply add a little twist when starting the cut with the tip deeper into the leather, then flatten the blade as you go (increasing the amount of blade in the leather) and lighten the pressure. The blade will start deep, then track shallower and make a longer curve. Use caution to avoid forcing the knife forward while making the tighter curves... This causes flat spots and points in your curves. Just twist the barrel of the knife keeping steady downward pressure on the yoke and let the blade follow itself thru the curve. Sounds easier than it is, especially when one is used to pushing the knife. It takes practice to master, but well worth the effort,,, and removes much of the fatigue associated with carving.

Keith

Thank you Keith! I have been trying to understand why I'm not getting wide cuts when making finish cuts, and you just explained it so I understood perfectly. I just spent the past half hour practicing cuts and already my results are far better than they used to be. I've gone from making decorative scratches on leather to decorative cuts.

Bob

[ouchmyfinger]

this was done with my angled blade, it being the only i have lol. i will be doing smaller floral in 4oz leather so what size blade do you recommend. from what i have been researching i have seen people using different sizes

I'm looking into that cobalt blade because i have heard only good things about it but I'm up for whatever the pros recommend, i am familiar with your technique as far as turning the barrel and letting the knife do the work. it took practice but i love doing sheidan leaves and watching the knife do the work. especially when the cuts come out so nice, its almost addictive. lol

definitely looking foreword to getting a new knife and blade and burning through some leather

thanks

[Spinner]

With the angle blade, you only have the tip or corner of the blade in the leather. It is difficult to make long straight cuts as well as larger curves with an angle blade. They are great for very small corners and fine detail work as in figure carving. With a straight blade, you can have the corner in the leather, and have the option of having more of the blade in the leather as well...

I personally disagree. While I'm obviously not a floral carver, or up to your skill level Keith, I believe the angle blade gets a bad rap most of the time. Part of the problem is companies like Tandy that make all of their angle blades with the hideously acute angles (50-60 degrees) with a hollow grind and call them a standard angle blade when really they should be called detail blades. In my opinion, a good 'working' angle blade shouldn't have an angle of more than 25 degrees or less. Difference is, with a low-angled angle blade (sounds odd but it's the best thing I can think of to call it) when the handle is in the upright position, it's ready to go in a more natural hand position, presenting the same amount of blade into the leather as a straight blade angled back for normal cutting operations. For tight curves, you tilt it back like normal but the amount of tilt required is less. For long straights & flowing curves, the blade is angled forward slightly to present more blade length to the leather. For finger and finishing cuts, a low angle angled blade with a shorter bevel grind works very well as the shorter bevel gives a width similar to a straight blade presented at an angle and can be drifted in & out of cuts just as easily.

I had to figure this all out due to a wrist problem I have in my cutting hand. Due to a hockey injury years ago, having my wrist in certain positions for too long will cause the joint to lock up. The standard 'angled back' cutting position of a straight blade was just such a position and i would fatigue quickly when working on large carvings. I worked with Paul Z at Leatherwranglers to come up with a blade angle that solves the problem and I can use for all my cuts.

Not saying either one is right or wrong/better or worse, just my opinion on swivel blades in general. A couple of examples of pieces I have done using only a low angle 3/8" angle blade for those interested are attached.

Cheers,

Chris

Edited March 16, 2012 by Spinner

[kseidel]

this was done with my angled blade, it being the only i have lol. i will be doing smaller floral in 4oz leather so what size blade do you recommend. from what i have been researching i have seen people using different sizes

I'm looking into that cobalt blade because i have heard only good things about it but I'm up for whatever the pros recommend, i am familiar with your technique as far as turning the barrel and letting the knife do the work. it took practice but i love doing sheidan leaves and watching the knife do the work. especially when the cuts come out so nice, its almost addictive. lol

definitely looking foreword to getting a new knife and blade and burning through some leather

thanks

You did not request a critique, but since you posted a pic, I will make some observations relative to this thread. The one thing that stands out the most relative to the angle blade being used is that the cuts end rather abruptly, rather than gradually growing shallower. With the straight blade you can simply flatten the blade (increase the surface area touching the leather) as you progress thru the cut, and the depth of the cut will gradually get shallower and taper to a graceful ending. This makes it easier to bevel your stems so that they gradually disappear.

One other thing, if you want to do accurate Sheridan style tooling patterns, you will want to draw your stems out much longer. The lower long line of each stem should extend past the stem below it and half way down the one below that. Your stems are currently ending at the top of the stem just below. Hope you understand this... it seems much clearer in my mind. If necessary, I can draw you and example.

As far as knife size, I use the 3/8's" blade for most everything. However, I do use a 1/4" for small items like watch bands and hat bands.

Respectfully,

Keith

[kseidel]

I personally disagree. While I'm obviously not a floral carver, or up to your skill level Keith, I believe the angle blade gets a bad rap most of the time. Part of the problem is companies like Tandy that make all of their angle blades with the hideously acute angles (50-60 degrees) with a hollow grind and call them a standard angle blade when really they should be called detail blades. In my opinion, a good 'working' angle blade shouldn't have an angle of more than 25 degrees or less. Difference is, with a low-angled angle blade (sounds odd but it's the best thing I can think of to call it) when the handle is in the upright position, it's ready to go in a more natural hand position, presenting the same amount of blade into the leather as a straight blade angled back for normal cutting operations. For tight curves, you tilt it back like normal but the amount of tilt required is less. For long straights & flowing curves, the blade is angled forward slightly to present more blade length to the leather. For finger and finishing cuts, a low angle angled blade with a shorter bevel grind works very well as the shorter bevel gives a width similar to a straight blade presented at an angle and can be drifted in & out of cuts just as easily.

I had to figure this all out due to a wrist problem I have in my cutting hand. Due to a hockey injury years ago, having my wrist in certain positions for too long will cause the joint to lock up. The standard 'angled back' cutting position of a straight blade was just such a position and i would fatigue quickly when working on large carvings. I worked with Paul Z at Leatherwranglers to come up with a blade angle that solves the problem and I can use for all my cuts.

Not saying either one is right or wrong/better or worse, just my opinion on swivel blades in general. A couple of examples of pieces I have done using only a low angle 3/8" angle blade for those interested are attached.

Cheers,

Chris

No argument from me Chris. I once had a man work for me who also used a "low angle" blade to great success. I certainly agree on the standard angle blades that they are more "detail" blades. Using your blade as you do produces the same effect in the same manner, with less movement of the wrist required. Only fault, if there is one, is that you can only use one corner of the blade for cutting. With the straight blade, when one corner starts to drag, I can simply turn around and use the other, resulting in less stropping.

I have found your technique especially useful for carvers who like shorter handles, and hold the yoke deeper on the finger, closer to the palm of their hand. There is not as much movement available holding the knife this way, and therefor harder to tilt the blade back far enough on its corner to get enough relief for smaller turns.

I appreciate your input with that information. Not many use a low angle blade, and not many available for purchase. Most would not think of grinding a blade as you have. Your work certainly shows your mastery of your knife.

Keith

[Spinner]

No argument from me Chris. I once had a man work for me who also used a "low angle" blade to great success. I certainly agree on the standard angle blades that they are more "detail" blades. Using your blade as you do produces the same effect in the same manner, with less movement of the wrist required. Only fault, if there is one, is that you can only use one corner of the blade for cutting. With the straight blade, when one corner starts to drag, I can simply turn around and use the other, resulting in less stropping.

I have found your technique especially useful for carvers who like shorter handles, and hold the yoke deeper on the finger, closer to the palm of their hand. There is not as much movement available holding the knife this way, and therefor harder to tilt the blade back far enough on its corner to get enough relief for smaller turns.

I appreciate your input with that information. Not many use a low angle blade, and not many available for purchase. Most would not think of grinding a blade as you have. Your work certainly shows your mastery of your knife.

Keith

Thanks for the compliment Keith, I appreciate it. The dual corners is definitely the major drawback so I do strop more often than a straight blade user would but it's a fair trade off for more comfort. I've been a semi-professional woodturner for 10+ years and blade/bevel geometry is a huge consideration there which is what made me rethink the swivel knife blades I found available. They aren't readily available from most makers but folks like Paul (and I'm sure others) are willing to do custom grinds if the buyer knows exactly what to ask for.

Interestingly enough, I don't think I have large hands but I do hold my knife the traditional way with the yolk up around the end of my finger (ahead of the first knuckle area) and use a standard length barrel with a large (rounded) yolk...best of both worlds maybe? Or it could be I'm just a little odd. haha

Cheers,

Chris

P.S. - thanks for the critique/comments on stem design above, I'm currently studying Sheridan pattern design and that was an excellent tip.

[ouchmyfinger]

No argument from me Chris. I once had a man work for me who also used a "low angle" blade to great success. I certainly agree on the standard angle blades that they are more "detail" blades. Using your blade as you do produces the same effect in the same manner, with less movement of the wrist required. Only fault, if there is one, is that you can only use one corner of the blade for cutting. With the straight blade, when one corner starts to drag, I can simply turn around and use the other, resulting in less stropping.

I have found your technique especially useful for carvers who like shorter handles, and hold the yoke deeper on the finger, closer to the palm of their hand. There is not as much movement available holding the knife this way, and therefor harder to tilt the blade back far enough on its corner to get enough relief for smaller turns.

I appreciate your input with that information. Not many use a low angle blade, and not many available for purchase. Most would not think of grinding a blade as you have. Your work certainly shows your mastery of your knife.

Keith

any pics that i can get to learn from would be much appreciated, i want to start on a binder for myself to keep all my pictures and patterns in.

also i have a like new angled ceramic blade if anyone is interested, i don't even have a swivel knife to put it in because i have my beader blade in my cheepo tandy knife.

20 shipped to the us 48, pics available of course but it is as described, no chips and has not been sharpened or anything like that

thanks

[cthepower]

You did not request a critique, but since you posted a pic, I will make some observations relative to this thread. The one thing that stands out the most relative to the angle blade being used is that the cuts end rather abruptly, rather than gradually growing shallower. With the straight blade you can simply flatten the blade (increase the surface area touching the leather) as you progress thru the cut, and the depth of the cut will gradually get shallower and taper to a graceful ending. This makes it easier to bevel your stems so that they gradually disappear.

One other thing, if you want to do accurate Sheridan style tooling patterns, you will want to draw your stems out much longer. The lower long line of each stem should extend past the stem below it and half way down the one below that. Your stems are currently ending at the top of the stem just below. Hope you understand this... it seems much clearer in my mind. If necessary, I can draw you and example.

As far as knife size, I use the 3/8's" blade for most everything. However, I do use a 1/4" for small items like watch bands and hat bands.

Respectfully,

Keith

Hello Keith,

You make an excellent on line instructor. Not many can explain things the way you do with such lovely detail; my decorative cuts improved immediately from your description. For this part though ; on the stems extending ; can you please draw me a picture. I am only just beginning carving and I would really like to begin with good habits. I appreciate it much !

Cheryl

[Colt W Knight]

I personally disagree. While I'm obviously not a floral carver, or up to your skill level Keith, I believe the angle blade gets a bad rap most of the time. Part of the problem is companies like Tandy that make all of their angle blades with the hideously acute angles (50-60 degrees) with a hollow grind and call them a standard angle blade when really they should be called detail blades. In my opinion, a good 'working' angle blade shouldn't have an angle of more than 25 degrees or less. Difference is, with a low-angled angle blade (sounds odd but it's the best thing I can think of to call it) when the handle is in the upright position, it's ready to go in a more natural hand position, presenting the same amount of blade into the leather as a straight blade angled back for normal cutting operations. For tight curves, you tilt it back like normal but the amount of tilt required is less. For long straights & flowing curves, the blade is angled forward slightly to present more blade length to the leather. For finger and finishing cuts, a low angle angled blade with a shorter bevel grind works very well as the shorter bevel gives a width similar to a straight blade presented at an angle and can be drifted in & out of cuts just as easily.

I had to figure this all out due to a wrist problem I have in my cutting hand. Due to a hockey injury years ago, having my wrist in certain positions for too long will cause the joint to lock up. The standard 'angled back' cutting position of a straight blade was just such a position and i would fatigue quickly when working on large carvings. I worked with Paul Z at Leatherwranglers to come up with a blade angle that solves the problem and I can use for all my cuts.

Not saying either one is right or wrong/better or worse, just my opinion on swivel blades in general. A couple of examples of pieces I have done using only a low angle 3/8" angle blade for those interested are attached.

Cheers,

Chris

Those are slick

[kseidel]

Hello Keith,

You make an excellent on line instructor. Not many can explain things the way you do with such lovely detail; my decorative cuts improved immediately from your description. For this part though ; on the stems extending ; can you please draw me a picture. I am only just beginning carving and I would really like to begin with good habits. I appreciate it much !

Cheryl

Cheryl, Thanks for the compliment. Some of these concepts are difficult to draw in words! Here are a couple of pics... the drawing is a pattern I recently did for a saddle seat, and the other pic shows the panel on the finished saddle. This shows how the higher stems extend thru the stems below.

[cthepower]

Thank you for the pictures Keith ; I see exactly what you are talking about now .