Zig-Zag Only On One Side

[alackofcolor]

So I recently got a diamond pricking iron in order to get that nice zig-zag pattern in my hand stitching and I've watched this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0EL7K2NhYs

as well as the often-cited Nigel video on how to do saddle stitching but I have two problems to which I can't figure out the cause.

The first problem is that I'm only getting that nice zig-zag diamond pattern on one side of the leather (in my case the front side), while the other side is more or less a straight line (see attached photos). The other issue is that, on the back side, the first stitch is always dropped relative to the rest of the line. Something tells me that if I fix the first issue, the second one will take care of itself, but I can't seem to get it to work. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 27, 2014 by alackofcolor

[scottyslife]

I don't know if this will help or if I can even explain it adequately, as I just started saddle stitching myself. But here goes take it for what it's worth, the thing unlocked most from nigel's video was how the thread goes into the hole the right up and to the front the left thread down and to the back following the slant of the diamond all hole. That's how I remember it. I was doing a fairly thick project the other day and was having simular issues. As I watched nigel for the hundredth time to figure out what I was doing wrong I noticed that when he puts the left needle in he pull that needle through a long with the thread already in the hole I did that just like he did and what I discovered was sometimes I crossed the thread inside the hole and if I pulled back the thread with the needle I was better able to tell if the thread was laying correctly as it should. Anyway that's my two cents and a different way to visualize, perhaps some one else who knows more will have better help. And nigel if you read this post and I have it all wrong my sincerest apologies.

Scott

[mrtreat32]

So I recently got a diamond pricking iron in order to get that nice zig-zag pattern in my hand stitching and I've watched this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0EL7K2NhYs

as well as the often-cited Nigel video on how to do saddle stitching but I have two problems to which I can't figure out the cause.

The first problem is that I'm only getting that nice zig-zag diamond pattern on one side of the leather (in my case the front side), while the other side is more or less a straight line (see attached photos). The other issue is that, on the back side, the first stitch is always dropped relative to the rest of the line. Something tells me that if I fix the first issue, the second one will take care of itself, but I can't seem to get it to work. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

IMG_6304.JPGIMG_6305.JPG

If you want the back to be slanted as well you need to cast the stitch on the back. Some people call it throw the loop and Im sure there are other terms.

I was going to try to type it out but it didnt make sense. Here is a link I found that is pretty easy to follow this is exactly how I stitch if I want the back to also be slanted and it works great.

http://www.bowstock.co.uk/saddstit0.html

Its also the same way its done in "the leather working handbook" if you have that. Has nice easy to follow pictures as well.

The nigel video are great but aren't his slants of his pricking iron going the opposite direction in most videos instead of like this ///// they slant towards him. I could be mistaken.

Anyway please try that and let me know if that works

Edited June 27, 2014 by mrtreat32

[alackofcolor]

If you want the back to be slanted as well you need to cast the stitch on the back. Some people call it throw the loop and Im sure there are other terms.

I was going to try to type it out but it didnt make sense. Here is a link I found that is pretty easy to follow this is exactly how I stitch if I want the back to also be slanted and it works great.

http://www.bowstock.co.uk/saddstit0.html

Its also the same way its done in "the leather working handbook" if you have that. Has nice easy to follow pictures as well.

The nigel video are great but aren't his slants of his pricking iron going the opposite direction in most videos instead of like this ///// they slant towards him. I could be mistaken.

Anyway please try that and let me know if that works

Thanks for the link. I tried it, and now the back is slanted and the front is a straight line :-)

[mrtreat32]

Thanks for the link. I tried it, and now the back is slanted and the front is a straight line :-)

Are you sure you are following the pictures exact? That is exactly how I do it and I have slanted stitches on both sides.

That is also how Peter Nitz stitches and Hermes. I have actually asked him and he told me how he does it..he said he casts the stitch most of the time but not always depending on the thickness of the leather and if the back will be showing.

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150131553076948

watch at 2:45

Edited June 27, 2014 by mrtreat32

[mrtreat32]

http://imgur.com/cGRhblP

back

http://imgur.com/dqSDQbI

front

[alackofcolor]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that I'm following the instructions correctly. I'm wondering if the problem is one of hole size or thread size. Following the images, you pass the right needle over the left thread, and then cast the left thread over the right needle. So on the left side of the material, the left thread is over the right thread and on the right side of the material, the right thread is over the left thread. I believe this is what ensures that you get the zig-zag on both sides. But when I pull it tight, this configuration doesn't stay and the left thread ends up over top of the right thread on both sides, giving me a zig-zag only on the left side. It's like there's not enough thread thickness or too large of a hole to hold that swapped position above in place.

[mrtreat32]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that I'm following the instructions correctly. I'm wondering if the problem is one of hole size or thread size. Following the images, you pass the right needle over the left thread, and then cast the left thread over the right needle. So on the left side of the material, the left thread is over the right thread and on the right side of the material, the right thread is over the left thread. I believe this is what ensures that you get the zig-zag on both sides. But when I pull it tight, this configuration doesn't stay and the left thread ends up over top of the right thread on both sides, giving me a zig-zag only on the left side. It's like there's not enough thread thickness or too large of a hole to hold that swapped position above in place.

The thread you're using is definitely not too thin. The thinner the thread I use the more noticeable the slant from my experience.

I have used .8mm tiger thread at 9spi and after a lot of experimenting I found out my stitching didnt look slanted because the thread was filling the hole tightly and didnt have enough room to show it running from bottom to top corner. When I used that same thread at a bigger SPI (7spi or so) than it would slant again. I have been doing mostly 9spi which is pretty small so I started using thinner thread. Barbour and Fil Au Chinois 632. If I use .8mm or larger in that small of spacing its too chunky to see it running at a angle.

http://www.fineleatherworking.com/linen-thread/waxed-linen-thread-ecru

Here is a picture where you can see the thread on the right for example is starting to look less angled compared to the smaller ones on the left. The one on the far right almost looks straight in spots and would look even straighter if using thread around 1mm

Also how thick is the piece of leather you are using. If you have the time I would try it again with 2 scrap pieces stitched together.

I also notice the exact same sewing techniques create a different look depending on the firmness of the leather and a bunch of other factors.

Also you are not using a groover I assume? Sewing the exact same way as mentioned above in a groove will not give you a slanted look because the groove is holding it in a straight direction.

Edited June 27, 2014 by mrtreat32

[alackofcolor]

Nope, no groove.

I actually tried 0.8 mm Tiger Thread with a 8.5 spi diamond pricking iron to pretty much the same results. What I have pictured above is the same pricking iron, but a rounder thread at about the same diameter.

What was shown above was a single piece of 4/5 oz leather. I just tried again with a much thicker piece of leather (a single piece, not to thin pieces glued) and got more or less the same results. I say more or less because there were a couple of stitches in there where it was slanted on both sides. The issue is that in order to get slants on both sides, the thread on both sides at must both start at the bottom of the hole for a given stitch, but for me, one inevitably will push the other to the top. I don't know if it's because I'm not keeping enough tension on the line when tightening or what.

Edited June 27, 2014 by alackofcolor

[mrtreat32]

I know a lot of people will disagree but for a slanted stitch if you want a more designer look I think .8mm tiger thread is too thick.

I will sew a sample piece in a little bit the same exact way. One line with tiger thread and one with thinner thread at 9spi.

Tiger thread is nice but it lays more flat and even the .6mm that I have looks too thick for 9spi. At 6 or 7spi it looks nice but I currently dont have a pricking iron in that size.

Do you have any thinner thread to try out?

[alackofcolor]

The only thing I have that's thinner is some nylon thread for sewing machines I more or less got the same results, though I will agree, the thinner stuff looks nicer. How are you punching your holes? Thanks for helping me, by the way. I actually stopped at a Tandy's leather store today and they couldn't get it any better than I did.

[mrtreat32]

The only thing I have that's thinner is some nylon thread for sewing machines I more or less got the same results, though I will agree, the thinner stuff looks nicer. How are you punching your holes? Thanks for helping me, by the way. I actually stopped at a Tandy's leather store today and they couldn't get it any better than I did.

No problem. I actually like helping and hope you can figure it out. ..or get your stitching to looking the way you want.

Im pretty new to leatherwork and about a month back I was asking all kinds of questions about my stitching because I coudlnt get it right and people on here were mostly really helpful and answered a lot of my silly questions so I want to help out now if I can. Unioncraft and a few others had a stitching look I liked so I asked him and a few others questions and now Im happy with how it looks. Still trying to improve of course.

a few people told me it wasnt about the tools and type of thread etc.when I was asking questions.. while this is true that nice tools and thread size wont fix bad technique I can tell you from my short amount of time in Leather work that it can make a dramatic difference in the look of the stitches. The SPI to thread size and type of leather all play a factor.

Keep in mind there are different styles of stitching and looks to leather work. None of which are right or wrong. Most folks on here seem to be more into a Americana or Western look which I think is cool as well. But if you want your stitching to be slanted the process is a bit different.

I have been playing around with both types for different things Im making. I made some coasters which I grooved on both sides and sewed with a .8mm tiger thread and it looks cool but the stitches are straight as a arrow and recessed into the leather. When I want to make something look more modern or fashion forward I use a compass to scratch the line(no groove) and thinner thread to get the slanted Hermes and European look.

Im using a Vergez Blanchard pricking iron. I have only been doing leather work for a few months now but I have been reading whatever I can and practicing with any free time. Its getting a bit out of hand. haha

When I get involved in something I get a bit OCD and do a ton of research and want to learn everything I can.

I have also been trying every thread you can think of and have samples of a few more that arrived today. Originally I liked the Tiger thread because it felt easier to handle when sewing but now when I go back to trying it I find even the .6mm to seem a bit too thick because of the way it lays sideways. I really like the Fil Au Chinois but its very expensive and Im looking for a good alternative that comes in a variety of colors. The Barbour thread I got the other day is the closest so far and Im really liking it.

[alackofcolor]

Got it! I'm not entirely sure what I did differently...better see if I can repeat it.

http://imgur.com/mSD3yAn

http://imgur.com/LBnVJOK

[mrtreat32]

`Nice! haha do you really not know if you did anything different?

Another small trick which seems to help a bit is when you tighten the threads to pull them in the direction of where you want them to end up. So instead of pulling both hands straight out from the project to tighten the stitch pull the left hand up and away from you a bit and the right hand down and towards your body( assuming you sew towards yourself) to direct them in the direction of the hole where you want them to end up.

Did you use the same type of leather and weight on that last one?

here is a pic of 3 lines I did the exact same way. The dark brown leather is a stiff leather someone gave me some scrap pieces of. You can see even though I stitched them the exact same way those stitches are much more slanted and look spaced out since the stiffness of that leather holds the threads tight in the opposite ends of the holes //// The other piece is some cheap veg tan that is a bit softer so the thread is sinking further in and touching more.

http://imgur.com/mNGn4xy

[alackofcolor]

Yours are looking quite a bit nicer than mine. I need to work on getting the thread to sit in the top of the slits instead of sliding down towards the middle.

The leather I used for the pictures above was a 5/6 oz piece, quite a bit thicker than my earlier failures. I was actually able to repeat the stitch on another piece of 5/6 oz leather. It seems like with softer or thinner leather, the pattern doesn't want to hold and everything wants to fall completely to the middle. This may just have to be something I have to live with. What are you using to make the holes?

[mrtreat32]

Yours are looking quite a bit nicer than mine. I need to work on getting the thread to sit in the top of the slits instead of sliding down towards the middle.

The leather I used for the pictures above was a 5/6 oz piece, quite a bit thicker than my earlier failures. I was actually able to repeat the stitch on another piece of 5/6 oz leather. It seems like with softer or thinner leather, the pattern doesn't want to hold and everything wants to fall completely to the middle. This may just have to be something I have to live with. What are you using to make the holes?

I think the change of leather may have been what helped youre stitching out. It doesnt necessarily need to be thick leather but if its thin it needs to have some firmness to it. I sewed a piece of scrap 2-3oz cheap veg tan the other day that is very soft and the stitching is all out of whack using the same method and thread etc.

Im using a vergez blanchard pricking iron for those ones in the picture.

[alackofcolor]

Those pricking irons look like they make pretty narrow slits. The ones I picked up make diamond holes, which unfortunately probably won't stitch as slanty as the pricking iron you have.

[St8LineGunsmith]

The ones I picked up make diamond holes, which unfortunately probably won't stitch as slanty as the pricking iron you have.

those are actually referred to as stitching chisels i think the diamond point is at a 45 deg slant

[mrtreat32]

Those pricking irons look like they make pretty narrow slits. The ones I picked up make diamond holes, which unfortunately probably won't stitch as slanty as the pricking iron you have.

I haven't tried any other brand yet so I can't compare directly.

Yes the slits are thin but I use them to mark the spacing and punch most of the way through the leather. I than use the awl to open the hole so they are bigger once I do that. The other brands seem to make bigger marks but they probably are similar once the awl is done piercing through depending on what size awl blade you are using.

[DavidL]

Most important thing to master is to pull your stitches firmly and at the right tension without having a jerky pull.

Anyone have a 7 SPI iron or 5 SPI iron from vergez that can take a picture of the prongs from the bottom so I can compare to the dixons.

[whipstitchwallets]

If you want the back to be slanted as well you need to cast the stitch on the back. Some people call it throw the loop and Im sure there are other terms.

I was going to try to type it out but it didnt make sense. Here is a link I found that is pretty easy to follow this is exactly how I stitch if I want the back to also be slanted and it works great.

http://www.bowstock.co.uk/saddstit0.html

Its also the same way its done in "the leather working handbook" if you have that. Has nice easy to follow pictures as well.

The nigel video are great but aren't his slants of his pricking iron going the opposite direction in most videos instead of like this ///// they slant towards him. I could be mistaken.

Anyway please try that and let me know if that works

i look forward to trying this today; I have always had a slant on the front only. Thanks

[Camerius]

My slants is going like \\\\\ instead of /////.

What you can do is try let the needle enter from the left or the right hand side, and too let either the left hand needle be crossed on top or from the bottom before you pass it through the top end of the hole. This will let you both lean the stitches differently (forwards or backwards), but too let you switch sides as to what side the stitch will lean (left or right hand side of the piece you are stitching).

There isn't a right or wrong way here, as long as you get that slant right, a tight stitch and level stitching line. The rest is just a matter of preference and a lot of practice.

[alackofcolor]

My experience has been that you need a decent thickness of leather to get slanted stitches on both sides. If the leather is too thin, it won't hold the pattern very well on one side and you'll get a straight stitch on that side. But for sufficiently thick leather, here's a diagram I made in response to my own questions about how you get nice zig-zags on both sides of the leather, whether the slots are slanted \\\\ or ////. This is a problem I struggled with for a while.

I lead with my right hand when I stitch, so the diagram is set up that way. Also, dots on the thread circles mean that the thread is coming out towards me, x's mean it's going away from me.

[mrtreat32]

i look forward to trying this today; I have always had a slant on the front only. Thanks

Let me know how it turns out. Like someone else in this thread mentioned the only time it doesn't work is on soft or very thin leather in my experience. For some reason when I cast the thread it makes the front stitching go straight if the leather is very soft.

I don't find that it needs to be thick as long as it has some firmness on the grain side. The goat that I have stitched on briefly is very thin but the stitching looks great because it feels firm which seems to hold the stitches in place.

i look forward to trying this today; I have always had a slant on the front only. Thanks

Let me know how it turns out. Like someone else in this thread mentioned the only time it doesn't work is on soft or very thin leather in my experience. For some reason when I cast the thread it makes the front stitching go straight if the leather is very soft.

I don't find that it needs to be thick as long as it has some firmness on the grain side. The goat that I have stitched on briefly is very thin but the stitching looks great because it feels firm which seems to hold the stitches in place.

[DavidL]

Best leather to stitch is thick, stiff veg.

Chrome can be stitched.. but.. you can't cast the thread and the leather can't take hardly any tension. I will pull only 10 percent when the stitch is about to set in (imagine how much tension a sewing machine has when sewing chrome).