What If I *want* Some Flex And Don't Wet The Leather At All?

[Jim March]

To me, the advantage of a leather holster is that it has some flex to it - if I wanted something stiff as a board I'd use kydex.

With the holster design I've been working on lately, I haven't wet down the leather at all. I'm using two layers of 4-5oz stuff and a "strap it to the belt" system that so far as I'm aware is unique.

This is the one I'm using for daily carry right now on my personal gun:

You can see better how these work with the pics I took of one for a friend's Ruger P85, which is a fairly heavy gun (Ruger's first centerfire auto):

It buckles onto the belt. The cross-strap that goes through the double-ring buckle is tapered so that it resists pulling out. The entire rig can be taken on and off the belt without removing the belt or taking the gun out of the holster, a good thing in AZ where public locker storage at courthouses and the like is mandated by law.

This next shot shows how high these ride, in this case with the whole triggerguard above the belt-line, plus this rig is an even more extreme "body hugger" than most pancake setups:

I full well understand that these aren't "pro quality" and I'm not selling anything yet. The next version I'm about to do will come closer as I have some better edging tools, I know how to do real stitching, I have some much smaller drill bits for the holes(!) and so on.

But here's the kicker. Because this system tensions across the body of the holster and helps retention, it doesn't need to be "boned". In construction methods it's closer to an old west "California slim" type holster than anything modern.

As I've worn the "yin-yang special" over the past 2+ months it has subtly molded itself to me - there's no glue and the leather is just dyed and waterproofed over the original veg-tan.

There's obviously some downsides to this sort of "dry construction" - I can't awl-punch the leather, I have to dremel it, and doing grooves for the stitches will be rough although not completely impossible I don't think?

My question is, what are the other downsides to this sort of construction method, if we assume that retention of the gun is already more than adequate (it is!). Are there going to be durability issues? Are there other "gotchas" I don't know about yet, considering these are basically my 5th and 6th holsters respectively?

I'm worried about what I don't yet know that I don't know...if that makes sense.

[MADMAX22]

Not sure about the down sides as far as holster construction but as far as the stitching thing is concerned the style of stitching you have used will probably be the first part to go (I think). My experience isnt overwhelming to say the least but I do believe something stitched in that way puts more stress on single points and will eventually wear out much quicker then the standard saddle stitch that most use on leather.

That being said there is no reason not to be able to use a awl and stitch dry leather. Thats the only time I stitch my stuff is when it is dry. Look into getting a decent awl and getting it nice and sharp at the tip with the rest of it polished up good. Then if necessary stab a spot of wax during your stitching process. Atleast thats what I do to help.

Im sure later today the holster gurus will get you all kinds of input.

[Jim March]

Well I agree completely that this sort of "lace stitching" isn't going to cut it. That's absolutely not going to happen again.

And like I said, I have a much smaller set of drill bits for the dremel now, and assuming I can get at least a bit of groove going to recess the stitching into it'll be a big improvement.

The next version I'm planning will be even more off-the-wall: a leather holster that can be adjusted near-infinitely for both "tilt angle" and ride height.

Step one is just a simple fold of leather with two stitch lines, one to the edge and one formed to the gun.

Step two sews small metal rings in a line facing "outwards", sewn to both the inner layer of leather (probably lined under that) and to each other.

Step three adds a top-plate that also encircles the throat, covering the two lines of rings yet allowing access to them from the sides. This "top plate" also hides the "interior sew line" as seen in picture 1, and can contain decorative elements as desired.

Step 4 adds cord to form the belt loops that buckle across the top, using a tapered leather strap through two metal rings. The cord can be paracord 550 or any decent equivalent, and works the same way the strap arrangement works on my "mark 1" and "mark 2" variants photographed.

The inset picture bottom-right shows how each cord side links to one of the holster's rings; these cords can be taken off at any time and re-connected elsewhere, allowing near-infinite adjustment of both ride height and tilt angle.

If I'm right, this critter ought to have at least a vaguely "old west" look to it, yet have the kind of tilt adjustments normally seen on junk like a Blackhawk Serpa yet hug the belt and body MUCH closer in a real leather holster.

Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial 3.0 license:

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/

Read: feel free to make one for personal use, credit me if you share the design and drop me a line for low-cost commercial licensing fees.

I hope to have the time to build this for real next week, meanwhile all comments on the design are welcome.

If I can pull this off, it'll absolutely spank the adjustment range possible in, say, a Blackhawk Sherpa or the like while hugging tighter to the body, it'll stay on the belt in stronger fashion (harder to just rip off like you can a Sherpa, Fobus, etc.) and it'll be leather instead of plastic.

One more real oddity. This thing will be able to be worn in a bunch of different locations, from crossdraw all the way through to SOB and everything in between. I plan on doing a video showing the pros and cons of each type of carry and draw, put that on a small USB flash memory stick and put that in it's own pocket in the back of the holster along with a written manual and possibly more.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Jim March

[Denster]

I'm having a hard time understanding why you believe it will be difficult to grove the leather for the stitchline and for that matter to difficult to use an awl for the holes?

[Denster]

One other question crosses my mind. Since that style of buckle requires constant tension, what happens when you say draw the weapon and that nice flexible leather collapses a bit and you loose tension on the buckle. Where does the holster go if you have to run, squat, go prone or roll over?

[Jim March]

I'm having a hard time understanding why you believe it will be difficult to grove the leather for the stitchline and for that matter to difficult to use an awl for the holes?

My understanding so far is that most of the stitch grooves people are doing are formed by pressing a line into the leather while wet. The other alternative would be "cut" (or "gouged") grooves in some fashion. The latter would work on dry leather, I am assuming the "pressed" type would be difficult at best with dry leather. Which type are people using?

One other question crosses my mind. Since that style of buckle requires constant tension, what happens when you say draw the weapon and that nice flexible leather collapses a bit and you loose tension on the buckle. Where does the holster go if you have to run, squat, go prone or roll over?

That problem vanished completely when I went to the tapered straps. The straight straps I started with had a bit of "pulling" problem - not too bad mind you, but annoying. My first try at a solution involved stitching patterns into the strap to give it "traction grooves" a bit like a car tire. That got messy fast. The tapered strap was the solution.

Oh, and it doesn't actually collapse very much at all. Remember, I'm using a double-thickness throat plus a liner. It's still fairly stiff and holds it's shape well when the gun is out. One-handed re-holstering is no problem at all.

[Denster]

For the gouged in stitchgroves you basically need tow grooves and adjustable edge groover and a freehand groover both work very nicely in dry leather. For a creased in groove you just need to lightly case (wet) the leather and crease it in.

[dickf]

Hi Jim,

I think you have an interesting idea going there, but I'm a little confused as to what you're really trying to do. Is it a concealed holster, open carry, range, hunting...what is it for, really? You need to know your audience and really test the hell out of it before you start trying to make it a do-all kind of holster, and certainly before you try selling it. Asking about durability is a clear sign that this thing hasn't been through the wringer, and long-term testing hasn't yet been accomplished. Ask a local LEO friend to test one for a few months. Gather some real-world data other than your own use. I've found that I tend to go easy on my own gear, so I can't rely on just me to test it out. I need someone who will try to break it and find it's weak points.

I think that the use of straps and cords for retention is not a very good idea, as eventually, they will stretch and wear. The metal rings can and will rust. In the last photo, the one with the guy wearing it (could be you, I'll assume it is), it's clear that you've got your belt awfully tight. I think the belt being cinched so tight is what allows the holster to stay close to the body, which in my opinion, is deal-breaker. I may be wrong, but you do not look comfortable carrying in the photo. It appears as if you could loosen your belt a notch and the holster would start to roll and flop.

A great holster has good retention, conceals well/easily, and is comfortable to wear. Yours has many things going on with it, including metal loops and straps on the face of the holster body, which effectively adds thickness to it. Obviously, thickness is the enemy of concealment. I'd like to see the holster saddle stitched or machine stitched instead of the wide lacing, and the leather to go all the way to the end of the muzzle and stop there. The platform just doesn't look very stable, and adjusting cant and height via pulling a couple cords tight probably isn't an 8-10 hour long answer.

drop me a line for low-cost commercial licensing fees.

I have a feeling you're kidding, but if not, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but you'd need a patent first. Search this forum for a few heated holster design patent debates. I'm sure you'll get contacted as often as Milt Sparks does when people rip off the VMII.

I plan on doing a video showing the pros and cons of each type of carry and draw, put that on a small USB flash memory stick and put that in it's own pocket in the back of the holster along with a written manual and possibly more.

Don't put the cart before the horse. The holster design isn't finished. A holster that requires a video for instruction on how to use it, is a holster that nobody will use. Think about it: if I have to tell you how to use a holster, don't you immediately think to yourself, "this guy is overcomplicating things - you put the belt through the holster somehow and go!"? I think you'll find that a lot of firearm guys prefer the KISS method.

Good luck!

[Jim March]

OK. First, I appreciate the critique. I realize these are very early draft stuff and that it needs a lot of work from here - starting with the stitching process.

With that said, I've been wearing the rig for my SA revolver absolutely daily for three months. It's doing fine. I plan to use a thicker liner next time, without doing suede-side against the gun. I plan on doing a lot of testing including making several and handing them out free to daily CCW guys here in Tucson. The strap system has seen zero stretch whatsoever to either the leather or paracord parts.

That's how I normally wear belts...sadly, it's how I'm shaped at the moment (sigh). I've gone to a thicker belt than what was pictured there and I'm going to make a real gun-qrade belt next. With a 42oz gun, that's just crucial. For something saner like, say, a Glock 17 (fully loaded about 30oz) it's even easier.

The rings are solid brass and show no sign of verdigris. They're also brazed and ground so that there's no visible seam whatsoever. As to cord stretch, it's paracord 550. Even if it does stretch a bit, the buckle arrangement immediately takes up any slack. The newer strap system can be easily removed and each one will come with a couple of spare straps.

As to what it's for. First, the seriously high ride height available means it can be worn in ways few other rigs can. High and forward crossdraw is my favorite but there's others. These "very high position" setups aren't bothered much by the admitted extra thickness of the buckle. The main "anti-thickness" measure is that I'm not stacking key "fat points" like the cylinder of a wheelgun or the broader area around a covered DA triggerguard on top of the belt. Esp. with revolvers, that seems to help with how it feels.

[Jim March]

Well there's good news and bad news.

The good news is, I found out my current holster for my Ruger single action WILL retain the gun in the event of a motorcycle crash.

The bad news is, I found out my current holster for my Ruger single action WILL retain the gun in the event of a motorcycle crash.

Sigh. Wasn't too bad...about 20mph tops. Went down on my right side which would have been REAL ugly if I'd been wearing it strongside. As is, the high ride crossdraw was a total non-issue as far as the gun being pushed into me goes. No broken bones, just bruises it looks like, and the bike is self-fixable. Made it the remaining four blocks home, slow, rear brake out, some dings here and there. Grrr. Sun in my eyes, heavy gravel mid-corner left over from road construction.

Anyways. The type of hit should have jarred the piece loose and didn't. Perfect, given that it's a non-strap type. I already have more materials plus a groove tool for the next iteration...but it'll be a few days, right arm is sore as hell.