Questions for Kevin Hopkins

[Ian]

Kevin, I have theory - what do you think about this?

I'm speaking about chrome tanned garment leather. Since most of it is tanned in Asia, and most leather garments are made in Asia, is it possible that the higher quality leather is reserved for the mega purchasers in Asia, and the balance sent to the wholesalers here and elsewhere. The reason I'm thinking that is how many times I've gotten inconsistent product from numerous different suppliers.

I know it's popular to slam Asian products (and they vary greatly in quality too), but I've seen some really awesome leather used in imported products and have a tough time finding similar leather in the States. What do you think?

Also, and this is pretty specific to a couple of suppliers I've dealth with lately; How often do dealers switch tanneries, and do they update their swatches when they do? One particular big wholesaler has a very nice swatch catalog, but the leather I recieve is almost never the same as the swatch. I've taken to buying a full side before I place an order for mutiple sides, because nine times out of ten it's not going to be what I expected from the swatch. Also concerning this dealer, I found a leather that works well for my purpose, then out of the blue I get sides that are a different firmness, top finish, etc. with the same stock number. This dealer used to carry a very nice upholstery leather and despite the fact that their catalog still describes it as 'Beautiful Quality' has switched to a low grade split, dyed on the top only. True, it's inexpensive, but I'd rather pay a top price that use a leather that I'm embarrassed to show a customer.

I consider myself a leather gourmet and am completely obsessed with the look, feel, smell and magic of good leather, so perhaps I'm just a difficult customer to please - I dunno. I know that to some customers of finished products, leather is leather, but that isn't me. However, when the dissapointments outweigh the satisfactions, it makes it tough to have faith in suppliers.

PS If anyone knows of a supplier for a consistently high grade black garment leather in 2/3 oz thickness, I'd love to hear from them. I'm looking for both a milled grain naked leather and a smooth finished full grain leather with minimum pigment. I might consider calf for the smooth leather if it is very soft.

So, Kevin, how about giving us some insight ito all of this (Johanna suggested that if anyone would know, you would)

[rdb]

Disclaimer: I am not Kevin Hopkins.

Ian, I grew up around tanneries, they were on every corner on the North Shore, and when I started in the Leather Trade, they were all my sources. Each one specialized on a particular kind of leather, and I would make my runs to get the various leathers.

Nowadays, there are very few left in the US. And the ones that produce are even more specialized, i.e leather for Spaulding baseball gloves, or W&C/Herman.The distributors, on the other hand are buying odd lots, when they can, left overs from large orders from overseas, or when a particular leather becomes their staple, they will arrange with a tannery (mostly outside the US, with US hides) to produce a run. There is always a negotiation, in these cases, over color, temper, price and quantity. Once the negotiations have started, there are samples shipped back and forth, agreed upon results, quantity, then prices. These negotiations take lots of weeks, then the production, then, at last the shipment.

Now a lot of the distributors also use these leathers to make things themselves. That means they get first pick. Sucks being us.

There is also the problem with variations between shipments, one run not being as good as the last. That's where the fights begin, and distributors look for other tanneries to supply their need. Sometimes it works out, sometimes the leather still ain't right.

About the only protections we have is to either, hand select from a local distributor (our best chance), or have a trusted supplier pick out from their stock for us (sometimes good/sometimes bad...mostly due to timing..low supply/fresh supply), or the best situation is for us to become the first buyer, and order our own from the tannery. This is the most expensive route for us small guys, because of the minimum order numbers. A few hundred hides is out of the question for most of us.

What's on the swatches this month, will probably not be the same hides, by the next order.

If you were to do larger scale purchasing/manufacturing, you get to yell louder about stuff, but not necessarily win the battle, Between China purchases, and limited modern tanneries, it's tough. Supply is limited. The tanneries are in charge. Not the distributors. This is what you get, like it or lump it.

Sure W&C/Herman Oaks produce superior veg tan, but we dont all produce saddles, and tooled items. Garment, and other type leather is produced for specific things (auto,clothes, handbags, etc). If we are not the initiator of the run, we get the leftovers, the rejected, or worse, the variations from batch to batch. Still sucks to be us.

I saw a sample sent to Zack's, from a tannery, and I want it bad! But the negotiations, and shipments have taken what to me seems like months, and still they have not arrived. And I still don't know if the final product will be like what I saw.

None of this helps, i'm sure, but so far, this is what I've learned about it. Sometimes you get the bear.....

[Ian]

What you said is right, Dave. One thing that galls me is when I order from Weaver and they ask what I'll be using it for. The stated reason for the question is to help them select the best hides for the job. I get a strong feeling that if I'm ordering HO veg tan and say it's for motorcycle seats, the person making the assesment may not think top quality is necessary and sends me the stuff loaded with flaws. I'm wondering if I would get a better side if I was a high end saddlemaker. I know they buy TR grade and have to get rid of all of it, but it seems as though I'm getting the lower grade more often than not.

The thing is that even the small shops want to offer quality products and (in my case) are even less able to tolerate a lot of wasted leather than the manufacturers. My profit margin, after overhead is just too slim to withstand much more of this. This issue is a huge reason for me considering getting out of this business all together - I just can't withstand being at the mercy of suppliers any more.

[MADMAX22]

Just gotta throw my pennies around.

Ian you do great work dont stop. (IMHO)

Any person running a private business no matter what it is will have to deal with wholesalers and suppliers just like what your dealing with. The trick is to find the right one and hoepfully get a good thing going with them.

My parents had a petshop for going on about 15yrs before they sold it. We allways had problems with deliveries, orders of fish ariving half dead, food worms arriving dead or that would only last about a day or two. Plants showing up in pieces. You name it and they saw it.

We were fortunate because most of the dealers who delivered the stuff the guy delivering it also worked there so we could have a direct link to them when they showed up. Most of the time it was to tell them to give us a refund and dont bother calling again. Probably took about 5 yrs to get the right companies to deal with for everything we needed.

Ofcourse then we had to compete with the chains like petsmart and the others and it was just too much.

Anyways I know its not directly related but goes to show when you do more then show up and punch a time clock you gotta worry about alot of other things as well. Im finding that leather working is a tough business for us little poeple.

[Kevin]

I'm not Kevin Hopkins either, but I can answer this question as I have whined about it before. If you didn't order the leather from the tannery, you are getting the culls. We used to deal with Irving tannery and had to order a whole run at a time. Even at that, it is very difficult to get the same product each time. We used their colors, but they often had to color it 2 to 3 times before it was right. I think most tanneries have a full time chemist on staff. Remember every piece of leather is different, so they all absorb chemicals differently and react differently.

I don't think any chrome tanneries tan just in the hopes that you will buy it. They are going for the largest buyers possible. Prime Tanning bought Irving or they merged and now they won't even return our calls, that's after buying our leather exclusively from them for 17 years.

OK that's enough before I start crying or something,

Kevin

[Ian]

OK that's enough before I start crying or something,

Kevin

You got that right. It's about the way I feel when I have a customer waiting and have to go through all the rigmarol of dealing with customer service, sending stuff back, etc.

[rdb]

There is only one or three tanneries left in Mass. And I'm not sure they all produce rather than import, but the one last one I know for sure is a real tannery is Hawtan, I think it's in Newburyport. Check them out to see.

http://www.hawtanleathers.com/products.htm

EDIT: Just read deeper, their actual tannery is in the Carib, but they do warehouse here, so it would be possible to go select, I'll bet.

Edited May 31, 2009 by rdb