Home Based Machine That'll Do Button Holes ?

[CustomDoug]

Hey folks, I need help choosing a second machine for sewing leather garments. I have a patcher and love it but realistically it's not great for all the sewing that I need to do. Besides being faster than the patcher and more of a production machine - I have a need for a machine that will sew buttonholes in fairly thin garment leather (2-3oz.). Also I need them to be KEYHOLE buttonholes if at all possible. I need the machine to match the needle/thread size of the patcher too if possible (mostly 20-22 size needle). I guess a good strong home based machine should suffice. I could go with an older iron zig-zag machine that uses attachments for buttonholes or a modern machine would be ok if it comes with a good recommendation from one of you guys. I know the old machines used buttonhole attachments that were capable of doing the keyhole button but I do not know about the modern ones. I saw one modern Singer that I liked alot, it's called a Singer Heavy Duty model #4411 etc, but the built in buttonholes were just squared off looking. The salesperson did not know if there were any attachments that could be added to make them like I want. BTW, the old attachment were seperated amongst low shank, high shank, or slant shank... I'm not sure what this new Singer would be considered. Here's a link to one like I saw : http://cgi.ebay.com/...=item43a39de4f1. Any thoughts ?

Edited December 4, 2010 by CustomDoug

[Wizcrafts]

We have already discussed this matter and you were looking into industrial machines that are designed to sew button holes. What happened regarding those machines? You are not going to find a home sewing machine that can properly sew button holes into garment leather. It is too sticky and flexible. You need an machine that clamps the leather from the top and the bottom, then moves the clamped work in a button keyhole pattern. This calls for a specifically designed industrial, cam driven machine. Prepare to visit your bank manager for a mortgage on such a machine. $5,000 to $10,000 should get a decent model, marked down from $14,000+.

[CustomDoug]

Just so everyone understands I'm not starting a second thread on the subject - you and I discussed this subject via PM, and I appreciate the time you took to talk to me about it. During that short time we also came across a specialized machine or two that were far from $5000. Although used, they were under 1K , IIRC. I would buy one of those and I might yet. But basically I'm not convenced that an older HD Singer wouldn't work for what I need. What are the typical models that are often mentioned in this forum, the 15-91,201,401 etc,etc (there may be more appropriate models). Well it's accepted that some of those machines can handle light weight leathers very effectively (or is that a myth). I admittedly have not used them personally. There were a couple of types of buttonhole attachments : one utilized the zigzag feature of your machine and the other type actually created the zigging and zagging (I also think this type gripped the material like you were saying need to be done). I think and I could be wrong, that most of the older singer mechanical machines were capable of using the attachments (high,low,slant shanks). So that's why I keep coming back to this idea, an old HD machine with a descent keyhole attachment, sewing leather that's basically a little thicker than your average lambskin...or heavy denim for that matter - doesn't sound that far fetched to me. Though you are the expert not me and I certainly respect your opinion. Before I visit any bank manager, I'd almost be willing to risk the nominal monitary investment to see if this would work. Besides I find it hard to believe that everyone who sews a buttonhole in leather or denim has to spend 5K+ first. There has to be a cheap man's workaround. I mean even the modern Singer that I sighted (Heavy Duty #4411) has built in buttonhole settings, though they are not the shape I'm looking for. I have to think garment leather was in the mind of the designers as a possibility of materials to be used with this machine, no?

[amuckart]

I have a fair bit of experience with the buttonholer attachments for the straight-stitch singers, and I seriously doubt you'll get one to sew buttonholes even in garment leather. Most of them will barely sew a presentable buttonhole in fabric, let alone anything stickier. I have one that works fairly well in some fabrics, but it's one of 6-10 I have and it only plays nicely with my 201-1. The rest are curiosities, and basically useless for sewing.

These attachments do move the material so ideally you need a machine that you can drop the feed dogs on to make these work (the 201 does). for other machines there was a little plate you could put over the feed dogs to make the attachments work. Frankly these attachments were an attempt to bring straight-stitch machines into competition with the (then) newfangled zig-zag machines, but they never worked all that well as far as I know.

Have you tried getting a modern machine and feeding a couple of layers of garment leather through it to see if it'll put buttonholes in? Modern machines move the material straight back and forth and move the needle side to side to make the pattern. I don't have access to my one modern machine right now or I'd go try it out but it'll sew through four layers of 14oz canvas without too much trouble, so I doubt a couple of layers of garment leather will pose problems. Your limitation will be what size of 15x1 needle you can find to feed the thread you want.

My big question is why do you want to put stitched-in buttonholes in leather? In fabric you need all that stitching to stop the fabric unravelling, but in leather you don't have that problem so you'd be better off with a different edge treatment anyway, surely?

[Wizcrafts]

I have an idea!

Take some scraps of the garment leather you will be using and go visit all of the sewing machine dealers within nominal driving distance. Include your nearest Joann Fabrics, as they have a Viking and Singer sewing machine department in every store. The ladies running that section know their machines as well as anybody does and may let you try several to see if any of them can sew a keyhole buttonhole in your leather. Or, they may tell you that it won't work, and/or might damage the machines.

If you can go to an industrial sewing shop and look around you might find an old buttonholer that they will sell cheap, as a fixer-upper. I have gotten machines for almost nothing that were in poor visual condition and needed a few parts replaced. Sometimes, they will sell you two partially complete machines for the price of one, so you can use parts from one to complete the other. I got that kind of deal once on two post machines, which I turned into one perfectly working sewer.

Finally, if you can still get a real industrial buttonholer machine, with motor and table, for under $1,000, grab it! But, try it first with leather.

I apologize for the long sentences. That it my literary style (writer's license)

Edited December 4, 2010 by Wizcrafts

[CustomDoug]

Yea that's a great idea wizcrafts! I did think of it too before posting the thread, but figured I might save myself some running around if someone else had some experience doing this and wanted to share.

Some of the "poor man's workaround' ideas I had included glueing the two pieces of garment leather together with rubber cement of other flexible glue before attempting to start the buttonholes, and useing baby powder sprinkled on the plate and under the foot (on the leather), which I've read helps when sewing leather on a standard home machine.

As for why I would want to sew edged buttonholes like this on a leather garment, well I can think of lots of instances where it would be an interesting design detail, something that you're not seeing from others, unique... button fly pants, wind flaps, blazers, pockets, shoulder appueletts (sp?), decorative and functional straps, etc etc. You'll have to use your imagination for more. But you (amuckart) bring up another subject that I'd been wanting to explore too. That is the making of buttonholes with a punch or dye or whatever it would be called. Does anyone know of a maker of these that might sell a keyhole shaped one? I know some things use a similar, if not much smaller one... like a "Sam Browne" military belt and straping on vintage kit, rucksacks etc. ?

[Wizcrafts]

Yea that's a great idea wizcrafts! I did think of it too before posting the thread, but figured I might save myself some running around if someone else had some experience doing this and wanted to share.

...

But you (amuckart) bring up another subject that I'd been wanting to explore too. That is the making of buttonholes with a punch or dye or whatever it would be called. Does anyone know of a maker of these that might sell a keyhole shaped one? I know some things use a similar, if not much smaller one... like a "Sam Browne" military belt and straping on vintage kit, rucksacks etc. ?

What about a "pippin" punch? They cut a hole and slot, similar to a guitar strap hole and slot. You can make one like I did, by welding a 1/4" hole punch tube onto the end of a 3/4" steel chisel. The hole punch needs a piece sawed out so it can be attached and welded to one end of the chisel.

[CustomDoug]

Yea guitar strap buttonhole is what I was thinking of but could not remember.. pippin' punch huh? I need to search for them but like you aluded to, I may have to have one custom made, or several. I can't weld yet, though learning has been on my to-do list for some time.

[albane]

First I would like to thank Wizcrafts for his dedication to this forum. without him the forum would be at a great loss. His posts are correct 99.9% of the time ( i think I found a typo last year)

Responding to Dougs inquirey about button key holing machines. I have NEVER found a reliable system that I would put into production. I can make button holes by hand guiding my zig zag better than any attachment I have found. As far as cam dirven machines like are typiclly used on denim they are problematic at best and I am not willing to risk trashing an almost finished project with a unreliable system.

If i was going to put a "Home based machine" to the task of button holing leather I would time the machine for the specific thread and materials to be used. (good luck with that)

Again Thank you Wizcrafts!!!

[CustomDoug]

Hate to revive a dead thread, but it gives me a reason to use this emoticon . I just picked up an old industrial Reece S2-BH button hole machine off ebay for $75 total... cost me nothing after the christmas gift cards and I am so syched about it that I had to post, sorry. It is cosmetically ruff looking which is not a problem (I'll call it mojo), but atleast it's not frozen up or anything... my fingers are crossed on it being a good one (the seller is clueless about it). If not - I'll use it for an anchor if nothing else. Ya'll wish me luck. Now I need a table, motor and a operating manual for it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rt=nc&nma=true&item=300514432422&si=bKS2F%252BGn1KMj%252FPWiROxM25Th9JA%253D&viewitem=#ht_1163wt_1141

Edited January 14, 2011 by CustomDoug

[jimsaddler]

Hi! can I make a comment re the Button Holes. For Garments (leather Jackets etc) a bit of light Garment Hide and a straight sewer are all thats required.

Just place the scrap upside down on the Button hole site, then sew arround the profile of the required hole. then slit the hole carefully and fold the scrap into the slit and fold it out flat on the under side. Tap it to shape, then sew arround the face side neatly. Trim off the excess. Hey presto a neat, durable Button hole with a straight sewer. A bit of practice is needed to get it right. Saves buying a special Machine.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

Hate to revive a dead thread, but it gives me a reason to use this emoticon . I just picked up an old industrial Reece S2-BH button hole machine off ebay for $75 total... cost me nothing after the christmas gift cards and I am so syched about it that I had to post, sorry. It is cosmetically ruff looking which is not a problem (I'll call it mojo), but atleast it's not frozen up or anything... my fingers are crossed on it being a good one (the seller is clueless about it). If not - I'll use it for an anchor if nothing else. Ya'll wish me luck. Now I need a table, motor and a operating manual for it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/...#ht_1163wt_1141

[ELeBlanc]

CustomDoug: what was the result 6 years ago with the Reece? How did you solve your problem?

[gottaknow]

1 hour ago, ELeBlanc said:

CustomDoug: what was the result 6 years ago with the Reece? How did you solve your problem?

Probably not too well. The Reece S2 will only do rectangular buttonholes.  Its big brother the Reece 101 or 104 will do keyhole button holes. 

Regards, Eric