Shorts Report post Posted January 21, 2009 I know this conversation has come up in a thread before, but I saw a post in a forum today that sort of pushed my buttons: The xxxxx belt is cut on a natural curve that makes it feel like an old friend the first time you wear it. Not all belt-makers do this. Can't imagine why they don't! My first reaction was 'Have you ever tried to make a belt?' Anyway, so instead of getting irked, I decided to answer that question for myself. Why don't belt makers make them curved from the beginning? Well, off the top of my head, actually cutting a curved belt blank takes a little more planning and work than cutting a straight strap. How do maker's cut curved straps? What kind of template? Clicker die? How do they adjust for length? How do they know how much radius works? (Set degree?) Now the stitching part - would stitching be more difficult or different? Ok, I'm just up rambling, reading and thinkin' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TwinOaks Report post Posted January 21, 2009 I say cut a straight strap for it. Each customer will wear a belt a little differently, and trying to match a belt to a person will likely result in a belt collection as varied in their curvature as a katana store (real ones that get their curve during the heat treat, not the pakistani mass produced blades). Stitching should be about the same I'd guess, because you want the stitches to have the same spacing on top and bottom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernHolsters Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Instead of why not? Ask why? It's a marketing gimmick. I don't know how much of a curve, how many your curves, where your curves are at, or if you have any curves, to make a curved belt. And if you wear your pants around your knees...what kind of curve does that take? Personally, I don't want my pants forced to droop or rise on the sides, the back, or in the front. I like my pants to be even all the way around. I used to make gun belts and wear one I made for myself. I like the professional look of a straight belt being worn. If you want to get into curved gun belts, have the customer send you how many, where, degree of curvature, up/down of the curves they want, and a picture and see if "a straight belt will do" is the answer. I know my wife and I don't have "the same curves and a "one size fits all" does not when applied to curved belts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
K-Man Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Curved/contoured belts are appealing to women especially. The belt, when worn, flares out along the bottom edge in comparison to the top edge. A straight cut belt digs into their hips more and can cause some amount of discomfort. In addition, the curved belt lays flatter against the side of the waist/body. The curved belts are also common place for buscadero cowboy rigs because they're generally worn further down on the hips, be it a guy or a gal. John Bianchi's video set on making a cowboy rig shows how to create the curve and how to adjust for size. It takes up a lot of space on a side of leather when cutting a belt with the curve, in comparison to slicing off a straight cut belt. Some of the custom holster makers offer the curved belt, most do not. And almost all of those who do offer it charge an extra fee to make it. I'm not aware of any who use a clicker die to cut them out, though it would be feasible (and expensive for the dies) to do so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
celticleather Report post Posted January 22, 2009 I cut many of my veg-tan belts on the curve. I find it reduces the unsightly 'bagging' that can occur around the back of the belt, and provides a more snug fit, especially for people (mostly ladies) who wear their belts on their hips. I use mostly shoulders for this purpose, with a curve of radius 85". There is a bit of initial offcut, but with a bit of careful planning this can be kept to a minimum. The offcuts are used for belt loops and key fobs, so nothing gets thrown away. I never cut my bridle leather belts on the curve - it would not be economical to do so. I scribe a radius onto the hide and make the first cut with a head knife. Subsequent cuts, with either a strap cutter or a plough gauge follow the same curve. It is important, however, to ensure that the buckle is attached to the proper end of the belt! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shorts Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Good thoughts Mike, Tom and Kevin. Here's a bit of my own experience: I rolled my own first belt for trial a little bit ago and came out nice and stiff. I'm one of those gals where my belts will contour to my body and drastically through its lifetime (a lot depends on me, you'll see later). Wearing my new belt initially was stiff. I laughed a bit as it felt like I was wearing a hoola-hoop. Oddly enough, as drafty as it was on the backside when my shirt rode up, it was comforting that the belt was strong. It did stay put for the most part, no sliding up or down on my body. This also meant it stayed more or less on a hipbone. Towards the end of the day it hurt my left side, but not my right. Which is something regular I've experienced for years when carrying on my belt (right side is my strong/draw side). All my gear hurts my left hipbone and not my right due to my body structure. My belt is now a bit more broken in, a little more flexible and its subtly picking up my contour. Mind you, I don't wear the belt everyday as I am not carrying every day. I mainly wear it on testing days and days outside doing something active. It is unobtrusive. Its not anything I notice or devote attention to. And for a carry belt, I think 'no news is good news'. It keeps holsters in place and pretty stable. For comparison, I put on my old single layer (7/8oz-ish) Carhartt work belt with the same holster. While the belt was more comfortable on my contours, the holster moved and shifted. This was evident in that it kept getting my attention for adjustment. I feel the 'set and forget' philosophy of a holster and belt means its just right. Let me get preachy here... :soapbox: I will say this to the ladies, the better your body is in shape, the better the gear will fit! I have experienced this with my own body. My formal education and background is fitness/training. My body comp has fluctuated enough that I have felt the differences in gear when my body is at various stages. Stay in shape! A major reason this is the case is when ladies are out of shape, their hips get wide, wider than the waistline. This makes a taper that makes all your pants and belt slide up. A way to try to make up for this is by wearing belts tighter in an effort to force it to stay put down low. News flash - that makes your hips hurt, especially with a stiff belt. Aside from hurting your hips, anything extra you got going on around the waistline, you know, all that 'love' you got going on, that also puts a lot of pressure on the holster. It'll be real uncomfortable both on your side and on your hip. That "curve" is accentuated when you are out of shape. When you're in shape, the curve is not as drastic and will result in better fitting gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Go2Tex Report post Posted January 22, 2009 A major reason this is the case is when ladies are out of shape, their hips get wide, wider than the waistline. eh, Mr. Fitness..... Last time I checked, ladies were supposed to be wide in the hips. To me, that is being in shape. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shorts Report post Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) eh, Mr. Fitness..... Last time I checked, ladies were supposed to be wide in the hips. To me, that is being in shape. Who's "Mr Fitness"? I am a Mrs. Its an anatomical fact ladies hips will be wider than their waist. There is this thing called hip-to-waist ratio and it is measurable. Mine is within "proper specs". My hips are wider than my waist. If I implied that the hips and waist should be the same size on a woman, then I said things incorrectly. Women will always have wider hips than waist. BUT, and a huge BUT (no pun intended), there is an acceptable measure of the difference (I am speaking as a Health Educator not as a fly by night personal trainer, which is a position I am overqualified for). What I am referring to about being in shape is body composition. People need to get down to normal/acceptable levels instead of overweight and obese. Just those small changes will be exceptionally beneficial. There is room for improvement Edited January 22, 2009 by Shorts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Go2Tex Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Who's "Mr Fitness"? I am a Mrs. Whoops. Sorry....Mrs. Fitness. Well, anyway,.... yeah, what the world doesn't need is another obese woman wearing a gun belt. I say, put 'em all in sweat pants and send 'em off to the Quick Stop for some more beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shorts Report post Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) Whoops. Sorry....Mrs. Fitness. Well, anyway,.... yeah, what the world doesn't need is another obese woman wearing a gun belt. I say, put 'em all in sweat pants and send 'em off to the Quick Stop for some more beer. Having lived in Japan for the last three years, I have seen with my own eyes the drastic results of dietary behaviors between the Japanese and Americans. While genetic differences make up an appreciable amount of that difference, eating and activity habits do so as well. I don't intend my soapbox there as a hands-off message. I'm speaking to myself as well. In the last year I have been absolutely dreadful in my workout habits and it shows, both in my outward appearances and how my clothes and gear fit on me (gear as in ANY gear, sports equipment, motorcycle gear, holsters/belts/everything). It's a shock really how much of an impact I can feel just by jumping a notch in the belt loop either way. I'm just being forthcoming and honest in my observations. I've started my workouts back up again and have decided to keep myself in better shape, both exercise and what I eat. It's been a long time coming. I build my products around me, for comfort and function. There's only so much comfort I can build into an item (based on my experience, materials and designs). For the rest, folks need to do their part. Geez I got offcourse with this thread. Edited January 22, 2009 by Shorts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billsotx Report post Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) There's a sea gull sailing around Parade Island calling your name girl. You've been gone too long Texas woman! Edited January 22, 2009 by Billsotx Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Johanna Report post Posted January 22, 2009 I have to agree with what Shorts said. She's right about being in shape, and everything fitting better. I like the way she explained that if the holster or belt is drawing her attention to adjust it, it doesn't fit properly. Also, being 40-something years old, I know my body is not like it was before I had babies. My hips are wider in proportion to my waist, even though I am the same weight and height, than when I was in my twenties. And, I cut my belts straight and let my body put the natural curve into them over time. When I measure someone for a belt, I have them take off the one they are wearing. I put my tape measure next to it, kinda adjust for the curve, and measure from the hole they are using to the end. That's how I figure out their center hole, then two up and two down, because we girls do change sizes in the course of a month. I have cut guitar straps on a curve, but it "wastes" leather (I know, there is no such thing as scrap!) because you can't cut as many from a side. When I buy a side I cut off straps from the back, not the belly (too stretchy) and I can usually pay for the side with a few of the straps, leaving me plenty of leather for whatever I'm doing with the rest. I expect my belts to acquire a natural curve after use. Johanna ps- most women do not use belts to hold their pants up. Our pants stay up whether we have a belt on or not (that hips thing!) Belts are fashion accessories, not for "function" MOST of the time with women. That is not true for men who require a belt to avoid showing a "plumber butt" when their pants slide below their hips. Add their wallet, holster etc. into the mix, and they need a belt or they will walk around hiking their pants up, or worse, showing everyone more than they want to see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Go2Tex Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Well, for belts with a curve, all you need do is cut it straight, wet it down, and put the shape you want on it. Clamp it down so it stays that way until dry. Presto! Curved belt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billsotx Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Well, for belts with a curve, all you need do is cut it straight, wet it down, and put the shape you want on it. Clamp it down so it stays that way until dry. Presto! Curved belt. I'm with Brent. You can mold your belts on a curve up to about 2 1/2 to 3 inches wide. Three is getting iffy. Build your belt right up to the finish application then case it. Don't drown it - case it - just like you were going to tool it. I see gear over hear all the time that's worked too wet and moisture or the lack there of is key in building good looking gun leather. After you case the belt lay it on the workbench and work it with your palms flat beding careful not to kink or bow it - go slow - if you cased it correctly you've got 20 to 30 mintues to mold it. Work from the center out toward each end. I have an arch marked off on my bench that I shape to so that I get some consistency from belt to belt - sort of a method to the madness. Once you have the proper contour let it dry 24 hours or more and then apply your finish. Bruce Nelson was probably the first custom leather smith to build curved belts on a large scale and he did that for all reasons listed above - comfort, kinking, stiffness, chafing, etc. It adds time to your build but it doesn't require a lot of leather and it accomplished the same thing as cutting it. The problem with cutting it is you have to always go back to a straight edge; if you continue to follow the curve of previously cut belts the curve disporportionately gets deeper and way out of line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shorts Report post Posted January 23, 2009 (edited) Interesting idea molding to the curve instead of cutting. I never thought of that but it's seems like, 'duh'. So....on the curved belt, how do you go about double layers and stitching? Seems the stitching would be done after the curve mold so that the stitches can hold the leather in place. Bill, I so need that seagull infested island! We move out next Thursday and the stress and frustration of all tat an overseas move entails is making want to cry "uncle!" and be done with it. Less than 2 weeks...less than 2 weeks...less than 2 weeks... :D Edited January 23, 2009 by Shorts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Go2Tex Report post Posted January 23, 2009 Same goes for the liner, assuming it is veg tan and thick. You could shape it too. Or, I might be inclined to just iine it the same way I line curved breast collars. Just lay the top piece down and trace off the liner piece, larger than the top piece, glue it down, stitch, then trim. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Billsotx Report post Posted January 23, 2009 Interesting idea molding to the curve instead of cutting. I never thought of that but it's seems like, 'duh'.So....on the curved belt, how do you go about double layers and stitching? Seems the stitching would be done after the curve mold so that the stitches can hold the leather in place. Bill, I so need that seagull infested island! We move out next Thursday and the stress and frustration of all tat an overseas move entails is making want to cry "uncle!" and be done with it. Less than 2 weeks...less than 2 weeks...less than 2 weeks... :D Shorts, Just build your lined belt as you normall would - glue the liner on, stitch it, finish your edges completely, punch your holes in the billet and slot for the buckle if applicable and the fold and holes for screws or install snaps - whatever - just don't apply your final finish - then case it and mold your curve. This has been around for a long time it's not a whim. Saddle makers have built breast plates like this as Brent mentioned for a long time. I've said it before - don't ignore what these saddle people are doing. I used to hang out in a saddle shop just because I might learn something. I can't build a saddle but I know how to watch one being built ... lol! Once you build one of these belts you'll know one when you see it. Just take a text drive - get a couple pieces of scrap, something to represent a belt in thickness and width, glue it up, stitch it, finish the edges - do it justice. Case it and mold it - then apply the finish. It's not wasted - you've got a mock up to block you belt loops - something else that not being done anymore because everyone is out to just make money. When you get back we'll have to meet down in Wilson County and get ol' Brent to bounce for a taco. I don't know if Carvajal Saddlery is still there in Floresville but it's an interesting visiting if it is. I'm not familiar with any saddle shops in Corpus. Of course there's always Yoakum but they think they have all the secrets locked down ... lol! I'll go feed the seagulls ........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shorts Report post Posted January 23, 2009 Brent, thanks for the info. It makes clear sense Thanks Bill. I think I'll give it a go once I'm up and running again. As much as I would have loved it I never had the pleasure of hanging around a saddle shop. I have so much catching up to do! I'd certainly be interested in meeting you and Brent and anyone else nearby. I was raised out in Karnes City and I still go by to see how things are. I'll be going by again to make a stop at my old elementary school (there's a time capsule in the building I wanted to see about). I'm up for a taco! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Go2Tex Report post Posted January 24, 2009 I keep hearing about Carvajal but have't met him or seen his shop and not sure if he's even still in business. Apparently the newpaper bought the building where the orignial saddle shop was? There's a boot repair shop across from Smith's Propane. There's a saddle repair, tack shop over on 775, toward La Vernia, called Scotty's. Haven't stopped in yet. As for tacos, we're still looking for a good one ourselves. What's your favorite? So far, the ones we've tried are nothing out of the ordinary. As for hanging out in my shop, you are certainly welcome to swing by anytime. Like most other folks these days, I have plenty of time to chat 'cause there sho ain't much business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TexasJack Report post Posted January 24, 2009 I don't pretend to be an expert on belts, but I've always felt that the real selling point for leather belts is that they always conform to the shape of your body. (You can pretty much extend that to any leather-wear.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
