davnasca Report post Posted December 29, 2008 Hey all, The gentleman I'm building my first saddle with advised me to avoid floral carving for the first time. I guess it's a smart choice because I have no formal training in carving, and he doesn't carve. But, I'm pretty adverse to doing something that's been done before, like basket weave or a plain meander border. I know I could buy production tool(s) and find a creative way to use them, and thats definitely a possibility. Just for reference, the saddle will be a wade half-breed or a wade with border stamping (he also advised against stamping/ tooling the seat for the first time). My cousin works in a machine shop and has offered to make me some tools (I would trade him some nice leather thingy). Has anybody has this done before? Is this feasible? What is the best metal? How deep should the impression I want be? Thanks in advance cause you guys are the most helpful on the net! -David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
David Report post Posted December 29, 2008 David, Many custom tools are stainless, not sure of the depth. But allow me to advise you to rethink your position of being "pretty adverse to doing something that's been done before". Carving and tooling are cumulative learning experiences. Just like in drawing and painting, you should learn to do it right before you get terribly creative. Boring? maybe....but in the long run it is the right way to do it. If you think basketweave or meander is too simple for you... Then you must never have had anyone teach you how to do it the right way. Basketweave is easy to do but SO FEW actually do it right.... and the difference is very obvious. Just some unsolicited advice. David Theobald Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HorsehairBraider Report post Posted December 29, 2008 As I recall, there is a thread on this board somewhere about making your own tools... but I can't find it right now! I've used tool steel. Now, I have to make mine because no one makes them as small as I need. So for me, I can get old dental tools, saw off the end and use that blank end to form my tool. Sometimes I thumb through a catalog of tools that are full-size to get an idea of one I want (or *can*) make. Anyway, I bet you could do something like cut off the end of a screwdriver and use the result to form a tool, and I bet it would hold up pretty good. Screwdrivers come in all sizes, they even make some small enough to suit my needs and my husband hides his small screwdriver set from me for that very reason... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hidepounder Report post Posted December 30, 2008 David, I also would like to encourage you to re-think your position about tooling your saddle. There is a lot to master in the art of saddlemaking...that includes tooling. As I'm sure you're learning, a lot of what you are doing is traditional. I think you'll find that your customers expect to see certain traditional styles in their saddles. It is important to learn how to create those looks! Unless you're inventing a new style of saddle, why consider inventing a new type of tooling? There isn't much in this business that hasn't been done before. In my opinion, you should just focus on doing a better job than anyone else! I completely agree with David Theobald...learn to do it all, correctly...not many can! I admire your enthusiasm...hope you never lose it! But you'll be more successful if you master the traditonal skills that are required to produce what your customers demand! Just my humble opinion! Bob Park Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Timbo Report post Posted December 30, 2008 Don't take all this advice in the wrong context...........please feel free to think outside the box. Please think outside the box and reinvent the wheel if you can. The thing is that in the saddle business a lot of people expect the traditional styles of stamping and carving. Ours is a trade of tradition passed from generation to generation. Boring??? Sometimes..........but if it is exceptionally and meticulously well done, it is obvious. If it was haphazardly done or done in a hurry, that is also obvious and tends to look amateurish. So whatever you choose to do......do it well. There are always new styles waiting to be discovered or invented. But sometimes you think you have come up with something new and find that it has been around for awhile. But ultimately what it comes down to is this........will the customer find it attractive and be willing to buy it?? When you come up with something new, make a sample and show it around and see what people think of it....sort of a straw poll...but be warned relatives will always say it looks great!! Tim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davnasca Report post Posted December 30, 2008 Thanks for your help everyone. Just to clarify my position on the tooling of the saddle... I would LOVE to do very traditional floral carving. However, the gent I'm learning from wont let me do that the first time. He doesn't have the experience to teach me and is adverse to letting me figure it out on my own as I am not well versed in traditional carving. I find sheridan style carving GORGEOUS, it manages to be very "traditional" but also, in my opinion at least, highly artistic. From a purely aesthetic point of view, I do not find basket weave attractive (it has nothing to do with the "easily duplicated" look-- I also am not a fan of oak and acorn carving). I do really like the look of border stamped saddles. I even like the look of plain meander borders, I would just like it better if it was a border that couldn't be duplicated by anyone with craftool-xxx. I'm not proposing to reinvent the wheel by getting something made by my cousin. In all likely-hood it would just be a meander, or something of the sort, with a slight, slight twist. Plus it would save me a good seventy bucks from buying a quality tool. Also, this saddle (which is really the only saddle I will build in the foreseeable future) would be for myself. I am a college student and the saddle I will be building will be a "independent study" of sorts. I do see myself pursuing my leather work hobby (and possibly saddlery) as a hobby for the next few years, but can't imagine a scenario where I have a business where I take orders until I'm graduated and settled down. So, its not that I think basket weave or stock borders are "too simple" for me or that I don't respect tradition. I do immensely. Sorry if this comes off as defensive, I'm just trying to clarify where I'm coming from. -David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TwinOaks Report post Posted December 30, 2008 You crawled before you walked. You walked before you ran. You fell down lots of times. Don't learn the tricks of the trade. Learn the trade. There, that's all the philosophical advice I can give you. The only way to learn to carve in the traditional Sheridan style is to carve in the traditional Sheridan style. If your teacher won't let you do it on a saddle, get scraps and pound them until you hear the mallet strikes in your sleep. Regarding commonly available tools vs. custom: Practice with something with which you can compare your work to others- BruceJohnson's basket weave would be a good place to start. By having a common stamp, you'll be able to see where to improve your own work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davnasca Report post Posted December 30, 2008 I do practice sheridan style, its just that that I'm building the saddle in the coming months and my skill is not to the point where I want to put it on something that I'm laying out a grand to make. I don't want a saddle that could be worth $3,000 even as just a rough out to be ruined with sub par carving. I also do practice basket weave stamping. Its just that I don't want a design that I personally am not attracted to on something that I'm laying out a grand to make and will have my whole life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rawhide Report post Posted December 30, 2008 I do practice sheridan style, its just that that I'm building the saddle in the coming months and my skill is not to the point where I want to put it on something that I'm laying out a grand to make. I don't want a saddle that could be worth $3,000 even as just a rough out to be ruined with sub par carving. I also do practice basket weave stamping. Its just that I don't want a design that I personally am not attracted to on something that I'm laying out a grand to make and will have my whole life. Sounds like you're not quite ready to tool this saddle. Custom tools won't help you a whole lot. Even though the learning curve is shortened, nothing will beat practice. My suggestion would be to practice using what you have, then dive into the custom tools as your work improves to the point you're satisfied with most of what you do, then the custom tools will help bring the satisfaction level higher. Just my .02 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruce johnson Report post Posted December 30, 2008 Dave, I like your thought process here - "I don't want a saddle that could be worth $3,000 even as just a rough out to be ruined with sub par carving". The mechanics of building a saddle ought to be the first thing to get down. The artistry is secondary. The skills of carving come with time, comparing styles, cherry picking from what you like, and putting it down. There are some great saddle makers - mechanics and artists on this forum. Most of them are both. They weren't all great artists or mechanics to start with, and have evolved. There is no crime or apologies necessary to make your first saddle the best mechanically you can do, and artistically simple. The artistry can come later after you get that down. I would wager this won't be the only one you build. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davnasca Report post Posted December 31, 2008 Carving (which is my true love in leatherwork) the saddle is essentially out of the question. This is really the only chance I have to learn the mechanics of saddlery, and like I said, my caving isn't good enough yet. I know custom tools wont help that. I'm really just taking about getting a custom border stamp or geometric made by my cousin, just one stamp. Plus, buying a Jeremiah Watt geo or border tool would run me about $70, this way it would be next to free. I wouldn't of even thought of it if he didn't offer. Is this at all feasible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Denise Report post Posted December 31, 2008 A lot of the first tools were made from large common nails shaped by the person who envisioned what they could make from it. My husband built his own Carlos border stamp from a 6 or 8 inch spike just because he wanted to make his own. Actually he made 3, if I recall correctly, before he got the size and shape he wanted. Then he used it in a different way than is normally done. Lots of guys have tools they have made or "fixed" from what they were before. So if you have an idea of what you want your border to look like, figure out the tool you would need to make it and go for it. It may take a few tries to get what you really want, but how else are good tools designed? Have fun with the process! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bruce johnson Report post Posted December 31, 2008 Dave, Denise is right about making tools. I have made some Carlos stamps out of bolts too. They work alright. Get a little under your belt and you will be comfortable with grinding and and filing to modify stamps. I have done that to quite a few Craftools, and some Barry Kings, Hackbarths, and Jeremiah Watts. Making a tool from scratch with cut lines and stuff would be harder, and that is why those guys get the bucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
