Couple Of Questons From A Ne Guy

[cleanview]

I am from Amarillo Texas. I started making housters for myself last year, and wound up making more than one for most of my handguns. Then I start reading this forumn about 2 months ago and found out how BACKWARDS I was going about the process. I have spent a lot of time reading and learning from this group. An example, yesterday I said "honey you got any mop&glo" of course she said no, so we ran out and got some to try what someone who calls hinself the grump suggested. I have experimented with so mnay things that I have read hear.

Well I am just about to make my first avenger for a bersa 380. I have the pattern ready to go but have been practicing several aspect to make sure that I am ready to get it right. I have been glueing 2 small pieces together and then practicing beveling, stitch lining stiching, the belt hole airbrushing and finishing and so forth. Here are a few questions.

1. When I spay the leather cordovan and then the second black around the edges it usually looks pretty good, but I think that whe I buff them it blends into an almost black all over, Is my assumptio correct, and if so what is the remedy?

2. Most video example are sewn with a machine. When hand stiching, are stch lines on both sides of the leather? If so, it seems like the smallest mistake and the drilled hole would mis the back line.

I appreciate all I have learned form this forumn and any input to my questions. Before to long I will post a picture of some past holsters (ugly yet functional) and the new one.

Brent

[SooperJake]

If you are using a drill press to put in stitching holes, cut the grove on the back after you drill the holes. This way you can cheat the groove if necessary to keep the holes inside the grove. You'll want a groover that protrudes from the end of the handle like a pen, not the "L" shaped kind to do this . I made mine from a nail, but you can buy one. Making mine allowed me to drill a larger hole in it, so it makes a bigger groove, which helps tidy up the back. I didn't use a drill press though, I bought stitching chisels.

Use a ruler on straight runs if your drilled holes are pretty straight

Better would be to pick up a leather working book that shows how to saddle stitch properly ( Al Stohlman Holster book for instance). You put the holes in with an awl, , one at a time, stitch, pierce, stitch, and so on. This method allows you to put the groove in on both sides first, and steer the awl so that it comes out in the back groove. Much practice is needed, and it is time consuming to hand sew, but it is the prettiest when done well.

I just set aside my stitching pony for a machine a few weeks ago. The time savings is tremendous, but it still looks better when done by hand.

Jake

[dickf]

I am from Amarillo Texas. I started making housters for myself last year, and wound up making more than one for most of my handguns. Then I start reading this forumn about 2 months ago and found out how BACKWARDS I was going about the process. I have spent a lot of time reading and learning from this group. An example, yesterday I said "honey you got any mop&glo" of course she said no, so we ran out and got some to try what someone who calls hinself the grump suggested. I have experimented with so mnay things that I have read hear.

Well I am just about to make my first avenger for a bersa 380. I have the pattern ready to go but have been practicing several aspect to make sure that I am ready to get it right. I have been glueing 2 small pieces together and then practicing beveling, stitch lining stiching, the belt hole airbrushing and finishing and so forth. Here are a few questions.

1. When I spay the leather cordovan and then the second black around the edges it usually looks pretty good, but I think that whe I buff them it blends into an almost black all over, Is my assumptio correct, and if so what is the remedy?

2. Most video example are sewn with a machine. When hand stiching, are stch lines on both sides of the leather? If so, it seems like the smallest mistake and the drilled hole would mis the back line.

I appreciate all I have learned form this forumn and any input to my questions. Before to long I will post a picture of some past holsters (ugly yet functional) and the new one.

Brent

Hi Brent. I'll offer this advice...

The Professional (Avenger) type pattern is one that takes a couple iterations to get exactly right. Figuring the ideal distance between the loops and where the front tunnel is located will determine how close and tight the holster rides. I would recommend a pancake for your first, as I feel it will be more forgiving in a few areas.

Mop and Glo is for floors - what you need is an acrylic that is meant to be used as a topcoat for leather. Angelus makes a wonderful product and I don't think you can go wrong with whatever finish you choose (satin, gloss, semi-gloss, etc.). To apply it, all you have to do is dunk the holster in it. Easy enough, right? I've tested the Mop and Glo as well as other chemicals. It's not up to the job that's required for a hard-use holster.

I think airbrushing dye can yield some really great looking results, but you'll not get very much penetration with the dye in the leather. One scratch will show natural leather and is pretty much a done deal. If you're dead-set on airbrushing, perhaps you could dip the pieces in the primary color (cordovan), then airbrush the black on the edges. This way you have a piece of leather that is nearly struck through will color.

Machines are obviously faster at sewing it up, but every holster maker, regardless of tenure, should know how to hand stitch properly. I always kept the grooves for the stitch line on the front panel for the reason you pointed out. I do make a point to either crease or groove a decorative line around the mouth and muzzle end of the holster on both sides. When I hand stitched, I would groove the lines, mark them with an overstitch wheel @ 6 spi, and drill them with the smallest bit I could chuck in a dremel (I think it was a 1/16"). I had to use pliers to pull the needle through the second time around. After the holster was wet and then dried, the holes closed up a little and made for an extremely tight stitch. I never did master the awl method (as opposed to drilling), but it's better than drilling because you're not actually removing material.

Sounds like you're really trying to do your best to practice before you start cutting your pattern, which is great. You'll find that each holster teaches you something new, something you should do next time, and something you should never do again!

Good luck!

[cleanview]

Thanks for the replys. Very good pointers.

What about the first problem I listed? I dye the cordovan then the black around the edges and then when I buff it, it pretty much turns black. Is there an amount of time between coats or time to set before buffing.

I am attempting the avenger on the little bersa basically to get my feet wet at the over all process. My ultimate goal is a cut back version of the avenger for a 1911 that is popular in action shooting.

Thanks again.

[IngleGunLeather]

Thanks for the replys. Very good pointers.

What about the first problem I listed? I dye the cordovan then the black around the edges and then when I buff it, it pretty much turns black. Is there an amount of time between coats or time to set before buffing.

I am attempting the avenger on the little bersa basically to get my feet wet at the over all process. My ultimate goal is a cut back version of the avenger for a 1911 that is popular in action shooting.

Thanks again.

I've only attempted this once and it was a while ago. Forum user "Particle" does this to quite a few of his holsters and I believe he talked about it in one of his videos. I'm looking at the book "Coloring with Eco-Flo" and on page 21 it briefly talks about using a sprayer and two different colors of dyes. All it really says is "Apply an overall base coating leather dye using an aerosol sprayer or airbrush. The more even the base coat the better. Option: Add shading around figures and edges so that some areas are a darker color than the base coat color to emphasize and add interest to the design. Allow dye to dry completely. Buff with a clean soft cloth or piece of sheep wool to remove any pigment from the surface."

Your technique in application sounds right. I'd recommend allowing the dye to dry longer. Maybe overnight? I'd check to see how much rub-off you have with a white cotton T shirt starting at the edge before working inward to the lighter color.

Edited September 11, 2012 by CountryTrash

[mlapaglia]

If Mop-&-Glow is for floors than drills are for wood and metal. There are many different ways to do things and most times no one way is right. Katsass (the grump) is very knowledgeable when it comes to leather work and he is really smart on saddle stitching. Don't discount the mop&glow just because one person does not care for it or one person likes it. Try it yourself and see how it works. I think you will like the mop&glow. Don't forget to dilute it with 50% water. way too many people here use the mop&glow to discount it just because its not for leather.

Learn how to use an awl. It is better than any size drill bit. It's also kind of cool that its old school. It does look great when done right. Better than any machine or drilled stitch line.

As for your first problem how long are you letting it dry between the two colors and before the buffing?

Edited September 11, 2012 by mlapaglia

[HellfireJack]

I've experimented with Mop -n- Glo and the only issue I remember was to make sure to buy unscented next time. The flowery smell of the scented kind lingers for about 5 days.

[cleanview]

Did not let it dry very long. That was probably the problem. Just not sure how long it should dry before any buffing or second coat.

Of all the posts I have read, it seems liek the grump is a knowledgeable person to listen to. I probably only remember him because it seems like he starts every post with "this is wha the grump says" or something like that. while I appreciate the posts and found them very informative, I dont argue with advice given to me (ecspecially when I am the new one) but there are many things that can be used for more than one purpose.

Thanks again. I will try letting the first coat dry, then buff, then the 2nd color and let it dy and then buff and see how that works out.

[dickf]

If Mop-&-Glow is for floors than drills are for wood and metal. There are many different ways to do things and most times no one way is right. Katsass (the grump) is very knowledgeable when it comes to leather work and he is really smart on saddle stitching.

I didn't personally attack anyone, did I? Have you ever tried any other methods?

I've used/experimented with many different natural and acrylic finishes, and mop and glo simply cannot seal the leather properly. I dunked a piece in it 3 times, letting it dry overnight between each coat and a single drop of water will penetrate right through it. For concealed carry rigs, this is unacceptable. Mop and glo is an old secret to getting a great shine on your boots, but it will discolor and potentially crack over time on any part that flexes. Let me ask you this: how many pro holster makers are using jugs of mop and glo in production?

While there are multiple ways to skin a cat, sometimes you have to use the tools made for the job.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, and it wasn't meant to be offensive.

Good luck.

[mlapaglia]

I didn't personally attack anyone, did I? Have you ever tried any other methods?

I've used/experimented with many different natural and acrylic finishes, and mop and glo simply cannot seal the leather properly. I dunked a piece in it 3 times, letting it dry overnight between each coat and a single drop of water will penetrate right through it. For concealed carry rigs, this is unacceptable. Mop and glo is an old secret to getting a great shine on your boots, but it will discolor and potentially crack over time on any part that flexes. Let me ask you this: how many pro holster makers are using jugs of mop and glo in production?

While there are multiple ways to skin a cat, sometimes you have to use the tools made for the job.

Anyway, that's just my opinion, and it wasn't meant to be offensive.

Good luck.

No you were not attacking anyone and I am sorry if my response seemed like I thought that. This forum is great for its multiple opinions on what works. There are many ways to do most things around here and it all depends on what you want to do and how you want to accomplish it. I have used mop&glo and like it. I like resolene better but thats an opinion. I also tried a drill once. I like the awl better. In my opinion the awl does a better job.

Again, my apologies if my response seemed like I thought you were attacking anything or anyone. I just didnt make my reply clear.

Michael

Did not let it dry very long. That was probably the problem. Just not sure how long it should dry before any buffing or second coat.

Of all the posts I have read, it seems liek the grump is a knowledgeable person to listen to. I probably only remember him because it seems like he starts every post with "this is wha the grump says" or something like that. while I appreciate the posts and found them very informative, I dont argue with advice given to me (ecspecially when I am the new one) but there are many things that can be used for more than one purpose.

Thanks again. I will try letting the first coat dry, then buff, then the 2nd color and let it dy and then buff and see how that works out.

Once you have all the colors on and before you do any buffing let it dry at least over night 24 hours is better. It sounds like it was not dry.

[cleanview]

Thanks to EVERYONE that offered advice. Each offered good advice, for which I am greatfull.

I overlooked "countrytrash" post. I am going to let the finished spray dry overnight and see if that wont solve the problem. Makes sense to me.

Brent

[dickf]

After I posted last night, I went into the shop. My bottle of M&G was still there, albeit covered in leather dust. I bought it specifically to test as a topcoat.

I cut 2 strips from W&C skirting and labeled them.

Test pieces with no finish.

Swatches after an application of product (still wet).

Swatches on my desk at work the next day (today). Note how the M&G has already started to develop tiny cracks simply from riding in my jeans pocket this morning.

M&G swatch slightly bent.

A600 swatch bent at much more of an angle

After dropping a few drops of water on each. The water goes right through the M&G and instantly starts turning the leather darker. It simply beads and sits on the A600 swatch.

This is a video showing the water from each piece dripped on one another. It also clearly shows how the water penetrates the M&G as soon as it touches it. (Click the image to see the clip)

Swatch after the water was removed. The wet area feels tacky and now has a white haze that you can see in the photo below. We'll see if that goes away after the leather underneath has dried.

Everyone is free to use what they want and make what they want. I'm not trying to say that my way of doing things is right or better.

When it comes to Angelus 600 vs. Mop & Glo for an acrylic topcoat for leather, it's pretty obvious which is more effective.

Chris

Edited September 11, 2012 by dickf

[particle]

Wow - excellent demonstration Chris - thanks for sharing!

Brent - when I airbrush, I spray 4 fairly heavy coats to make sure I get as much penetration as possible with the airbrush method. I don't allow any drying time between coats - I just spray up and down in one direction, wait for the dye to absorb into the leather (doesn't look wet on the surface), then I spray up and down in the other direction. I do this process 4 times, then allow it to dry overnight. You can buff it the next day, once the leather has dried thoroughly - if you buff it too soon, the leather is very susceptible to damage via stray fingernail scrapes, tool marks, work surface impressions, etc.

Dip dyeing is undoubtedly going to offer better penetration, but it will also result in a much darker final product, and it will use a TON of dye because it absorbs so rapidly into the leather. Lots of makers use the dipping method - I just haven't had good success with it so I favor the airbrush. Dip dying takes a very long time to air out. I let some leather that was dip dyed sit for around 3 days on my bench and it still had a very strong smell. I buffed the snot out of it, then assembled. There was so much pigment in the leather it turned all my natural thread a nasty orange color (dyed Saddle Tan) as I stitched it. People will probably say I left it in the dye too long, but I poured my dye in a tray, laid my flat pieces of leather in the dye, then instantly pulled them out - they probably weren't submerged more than maybe 3 seconds total. I did not dilute the dye - perhaps that's some of my problem.

Here is a photo showing my first attempt - I ended up remaking the entire order because I wasn't happy with it and didn't feel right sending it to the customer. It also seemed like it had a negative effect on the leather itself.

And here is the set after I remade it.

[mlapaglia]

After I posted last night, I went into the shop. My bottle of M&G was still there, albeit covered in leather dust. I bought it specifically to test as a topcoat.

I cut 2 strips from W&C skirting and labeled them.

Test pieces with no finish.

Swatches on my desk at work the next day (today). Note how the M&G has already started to develop tiny cracks simply from riding in my jeans pocket this morning.

M&G swatch slightly bent.

After dropping a few drops of water on each. The water goes right through the M&G and instantly starts turning the leather darker. It simply beads and sits on the A600 swatch.

This is a video showing the water from each piece dripped on one another. It also clearly shows how the water penetrates the M&G as soon as it touches it. (Click the image to see the clip)

Swatch after the water was removed. The wet area feels tacky and now has a white haze that you can see in the photo below. We'll see if that goes away after the leather underneath has

Everyone is free to use what they want and make what they want. I'm not trying to say that my way of doing things is right or better.

When it comes to Angelus 600 vs. Mop & Glo for an acrylic topcoat for leather, it's pretty obvious which is more effective.

Chris

Thanks for the info. One question. Did you use the M&G full strength or 50/50 with water?

Michael

Edited September 11, 2012 by mlapaglia

[dickf]

Thanks for the info. One question. Did you use the M&G full strength or 50/50 with water?

Michael

I used it full strength straight from the bottle, just like I do with all dyes and finishes.

[cleanview]

Cool. Lots of good info.

What is the reason for the mop and glo being 50/50 water? Do you think that it would change any of the results?

Thanks again for all of the responses.

Brent

[mlapaglia]

I used it full strength straight from the bottle, just like I do with all dyes and finishes.

That may by why it cracked like it did. The way to use it is to dilute it 50/50 with water. Then apply 2 light coats. Let it penetrate between coats and then follow, when dry, with Kiwi neutral polish and buff to a mellow finish. The stuff can be wiped on with a rag dampened with the stuff, sprayed with an airbrush and even an old Windex pump sprayer will do the job. If a drip appears, just wipe with a rag or even your finger. Streaking is almost impossible. a quart of the stuff makes a half gallon of finish for about $8.00.

The key is that it has to be cut with water 50/50 or it cracks like crazy.

A quote from Katsass on the start of using mop&glow, from another post

Years ago (40 at least) I used nothing but Tandy's 'Neat Sheen', then one day, finding that I had either run out of it, or left the top off, or some other dumb-assed trick (I don't quite remember now) I had to go in search of an alternative. I live out in a desert area, a good 40 miles away from the closest store that could supply the stuff, and I REALLY didn't want to make that trip for a 4oz, $5.00 bottle of the goop. Ma Kat had been cleaning up the joint and had used 'Mop and Glow' on the kitchen floor. While squirting the stuff out of the bottle, I noticed that it looked a lot like the Neat Sheen. Reading the contents and doing a bit of research, I found that Neat Sheen and Mop and Glow are (were) almost identical. I experimented and found that a 50/50 mix of M&G and water produced the same finish as the Neat Sheen. I swiped her jug of Mop and Glow and have used the stuff as a finish on my holsters ever since. Over the years I have read the data sheet on Fiebing's 'sheen' stuff, Resolene, and any other 'sheen' type product I ran across --- all are basically the same --- an acrylic finish product.

[mlapaglia]

Cool. Lots of good info.

What is the reason for the mop and glo being 50/50 water? Do you think that it would change any of the results?

Thanks again for all of the responses.

Brent

It dilutes it to the correct strength to use on leather. If you don't cut it 50/50 it goes on too thick and cracks.

[katsass]

OK -- From the grump: First,I think there has been a bit of misunderstanding re: my use of Mop & Glow. I mix it 50/50 with water, apply with a an airbrush (but an old Windex pump also works well). I apply to warm leather and allow to dry for a couple of minutes, then follow with a second shot. I MIST the stuff on - lightly, this allows it to penetrate the top layer of leather.I follow the last application with a hand rubbed (no applicator - fingers only) thin coat of Kiwi 'Neutral' shoe wax, buffed out by hand with a soft cloth.

Secondly, as to drilling: I use this method to teach (those that will put up with me) initial stitching. A drill press will NOT work for my method. A high speed rotary (Dremel type) tool is necessary. A drill press simply will not turn up fast enough to work with a small bit, as the bit will bend and/or wander all over hell I use nothing larger than a 3/64" bit - a 1/16" is too damned large. I have the person drill a few (10 -12) holes in a marked, gouge channel - place the piece in a pony or horse, and have them open the holes with an awl - properly. The drilled holes are nothing more than 'pilot' holes, to give the person starting out, a way to feel where and how the awl works. They drill a few, stitch a few - and pretty soon they just start poking with the awl. It's a learning tool which seems to remove the 'deflated, and demoralizing effect' of my comments on p#%%-poor initial awl work, and gives them something to look at with a little pride - when starting out. A little moistening of the leather, a run with the overstitch, and VOILA - the holes more or less disappear and a (sort-of) decent piece of stitching is the result. I feel that it is better to boost the ego of a person new to stitching, rather than continually bite them - (verbally, that is)

Now, I'm not saying that what I do is correct or the best way - it's just how I do things, but it has (in the case of M&G) done well for me over the past 40 or more years - without cracking or spider-webbing, and teaching stitching my way seems to produce decent stitching a bit quicker than other methods. Mike

P.S. Here is a holster that my (16 year old) grandson made - the very first thing he ever did with leather. It's stitched as I mention - done COMPLETELY by him with just a growl from me now and then. He's the one that started calling me a "grumpy old man".

Edited September 12, 2012 by katsass

[Colt Hammerless]

Dickf, that's a really interesting demo of the the two finishes. About 10 days ago I made a couple of samples to try Mop-n-Glo compared to Angelus 600. I took two chunks of Craftsman grade Hermann Oak (both pieces from the same hide) and dyed them with Fiebing's Pro Oil Black. After letting them dry for 24 hours, I gave each a good coat of neatsfoot oil. Several days later, I finished both pieces, one with Angelus 600 and the other Mop-n-Glo. I applied them both the same way, cut 50/50 with water, and sprayed on with an airbrush. I did the same number of coats per piece (four if memory serves.) I was going to keep them cinched down against my workout shorts with a belt while I worked out in order to do an accelerated test on them to see how they help up. But, I forgot about them for a while, until I saw your pics and video yesterday. So, I went out and started pouring water on them. With both pieces the water just beaded on the surface. I left several drops of water on them for over an hour. Both pieces still had the water beading on the surface, with very very minor "staining". I put that in quotes because it seemed more like a residue of the water that was still on the surface, not really sure if it was actually penetrating the finish. I did notice that the Angelus 600 coated piece had less water beading on the surface and more "staining" than the Mop-n-Glo coated piece. I also don't have any cracking with the Mop-n-Glo either, even when bending the piece. I'm not sure why you and I are having such vastly different results. Could it be because my pieces had cured longer? Maybe it's because I treated the pieces with neatsfoot oil, and that helped with water resistence. I'm not ready to use Mop-n-Glo as a finish yet, but I'm definitely going to test it further.

Paul

[cleanview]

It is amazing how far a thred can wander.

In one way, so many points of view makes me ralize how little I know.

I needed a hobby a few years ago and got into guns and acton shooting. I had played with leather years ago and decided to extend my hobby into holdters as well. This sight is a wealth of information and i appreciat ethe time and effort ot takes form knowledgeable to people to share and teach others that want to learn.

I have the day off tomorrow so I will get to make some headway ont he holster. will post a pic when finished.

Brent

[mlapaglia]

Dickf, that's a really interesting demo of the the two finishes. About 10 days ago I made a couple of samples to try Mop-n-Glo compared to Angelus 600. I took two chunks of Craftsman grade Hermann Oak (both pieces from the same hide) and dyed them with Fiebing's Pro Oil Black. After letting them dry for 24 hours, I gave each a good coat of neatsfoot oil. Several days later, I finished both pieces, one with Angelus 600 and the other Mop-n-Glo. I applied them both the same way, cut 50/50 with water, and sprayed on with an airbrush. I did the same number of coats per piece (four if memory serves.) I was going to keep them cinched down against my workout shorts with a belt while I worked out in order to do an accelerated test on them to see how they help up. But, I forgot about them for a while, until I saw your pics and video yesterday. So, I went out and started pouring water on them. With both pieces the water just beaded on the surface. I left several drops of water on them for over an hour. Both pieces still had the water beading on the surface, with very very minor "staining". I put that in quotes because it seemed more like a residue of the water that was still on the surface, not really sure if it was actually penetrating the finish. I did notice that the Angelus 600 coated piece had less water beading on the surface and more "staining" than the Mop-n-Glo coated piece. I also don't have any cracking with the Mop-n-Glo either, even when bending the piece. I'm not sure why you and I are having such vastly different results. Could it be because my pieces had cured longer? Maybe it's because I treated the pieces with neatsfoot oil, and that helped with water resistence. I'm not ready to use Mop-n-Glo as a finish yet, but I'm definitely going to test it further.

Paul

Biggest reason is one used Mop&Glow full strength and the other cut it 50% with water. I would imangine the full strenght application of Mop&Glow was thick enough to crack when bent. I would bet that full strentgh of the 600 and 50/50 of Mop&Glow would be about the same finish in the end.

[mlapaglia]

It is amazing how far a thred can wander.

In one way, so many points of view makes me ralize how little I know.

I needed a hobby a few years ago and got into guns and acton shooting. I had played with leather years ago and decided to extend my hobby into holdters as well. This sight is a wealth of information and i appreciat ethe time and effort ot takes form knowledgeable to people to share and teach others that want to learn.

I have the day off tomorrow so I will get to make some headway ont he holster. will post a pic when finished.

Brent

Sorry we stole your thread. Good luck on the bench tomorrow and yell if you need help.

Michael