Dye, buff, finish... problem?

[EMGBass]

I am new to leather working (about 9 days so far), and am having good luck with both a sheath and pancake holster design. I have read a lot on here, but I'm still having issues. First my process, then my problem...

After wet molding the holster and letting it dry overnight, I do a light Deglazing of the surface. Then I dye using Fiebing's USMC Black applied with sheepwool. I do basically two thorough coats in one sitting and let it dry. Then I buff the heck out of it. I do a light application of a leather lotion that I like (it's not any kind of finishing product), let it dry, and buff the heck out of it again. At this point the holster is basically looking how I like it. But then I apply a thin coat of Leather Balm with Atom Wax for a finishing coat, let that dry, and buff the heck out of it. At this point I notice a few spots where the color seems to be coming out, fading. It's mostly on high surfaces, areas that were probably touched/handled. Now, I am almost positive that this fading was not present before the Atom Wax. It happened with the sheath first, so I was almost expecting it with the holster I did later. Any suggestions?

Both the holster and the sheath look 95% awesome, aside from the faded areas. Now, when I wet molded the holster, I used a drop or two of soap to clean the surfaces, then I also Deglazed before dyeing. I always wear gloves when handling the leather from that point forward. I really doubt this is an issue of my hand oils or something being on the leather that is preventing the dye from taking. Again, any information or ideas would be awesome.

If I can get this sorted out, I'll post pics of my two new creations!

[MADMAX22]

Could you post some pics by chance. It will help.

[TroyS]

Just for future reference, pictures are worth 1000 words. If you post some pictures, it really helps people understand your situation better.

First things first... What is this "Leather Lotion" you speak of and what is the significance of using it? Without know what it is, we can't help. It could contain additives or chemicals that are having an adverse effect on your leather.

Yes, the small traces of oils from your fingers can have an effect on your finish. If you rubbed that area a lot or while wet forming, you essentially burnished that area of the leather and will cause the leather not to take the dye as well.

About the soap. Typical dish soap has oils in it that are designed to replace the oils in your skin so you don't get dry hands after washing your dishes. This is BAD for leather. If you MUST use soap to clean the leather, ONLY use "WHITE Ivory Dish Soap" (It's the ONLY kind you should use). The dry leather acts like a sponge and absorbs the soap. It draws the soap into the center of the leather and will keep releasing itself every time the leather gets wet. Wet doesn't have to mean wet like soaking wet, but every time you sweat with your holster or sheath on, the soap will try to resurface. Even the humidity in the air will bring it out.

Hope this helps....

[EMGBass]

I appreciate the responses MM22 and TroyS. I'm sorry for the lack of pictures. I actually grabbed the camera last night, but it was dead.

Being new to all this, I'm bumbling my way through with trial and error. Thanks for the advice about the soap. I'll remove both that and the leather lotion from my process. Given the areas where the fading occurs, I think TroyS is 100% on with the burnishing idea. The only thing that gets me is that it didn't seem pronounced even after all that buffing. I only notice it after the application of Leather Balm finish.

I'm guessing there is no real way to avoid this, since it is the result of hand burnishing while wet-molding.

Is the answer another light Deglaze to remove the Leather Balm, then a second coat of dye, targeting the faded areas?

[TroyS]

I appreciate the responses MM22 and TroyS. I'm sorry for the lack of pictures. I actually grabbed the camera last night, but it was dead.

Being new to all this, I'm bumbling my way through with trial and error. Thanks for the advice about the soap. I'll remove both that and the leather lotion from my process. Given the areas where the fading occurs, I think TroyS is 100% on with the burnishing idea. The only thing that gets me is that it didn't seem pronounced even after all that buffing. I only notice it after the application of Leather Balm finish.

I'm guessing there is no real way to avoid this, since it is the result of hand burnishing while wet-molding.

Is the answer another light Deglaze to remove the Leather Balm, then a second coat of dye, targeting the faded areas?

It's really hard to give that sort advice without seeing the problem. You may find that another deglaze, then a couple of light coats of neatsfoot oil/compound helps. Neatsfoot oil replenishes the leather's natural oils lost in the wet-molding process. It also helps to draw the finish into the leather. Lots of blemishes can be overcome by a light coat or two of Neatsfoot oil.

[EMGBass]

I took a pic of specifically the effect/problem that I'm having. This fading happened after a light Deglazing, and a second coat of black. I let it dry, buffed it, and this is what's going on. The rest of the holster seems to have really good color, but these problem spots and issues with dyeing/finishing I've been having are making me pull my hair out!

Close up of the fading:

And here's a wide shot of the (nearly) completed holster:

At this point I'm REALLY feeling "so close, but so far." It's enough to drive me crazy.

[EMGBass]

For what it's worth, I did a fair amount of experimentation last night on scraps. After dyeing and drying, I buffed them up to a nice sheen. Then I applied the Leather Balm. THAT is what is causing the discoloration. I can't tell if it is removing surface dye, or just drying in a way that is causing the problem. I did my best to apply a light coat of the Leather Balm evenly with a soft cloth in small circular motions. The effect is very patchy and does not affect all the leather. I'm feeling more confused now than before. Why is this finish ruining the "finish?"

Edited October 8, 2009 by EMGBass

[UKRay]

This looks like some kind of 'resist' has been applied to the leather prior to the dye and finish process. This is possible if something has been spilled on the hide during storage or at the leather merchant's store.

Look closely at the failed section and you will see that the Leather balm and Atom Wax is simply lifting unabsorbed dye and leaving the surface blotchy. I have occasionally had bits of leather that won't take a dye particularly well do this kind of thing - I'm told the problem is due to poor tanning. The faulty leather has 'hard spots' that simply won't absorb the colour.

The reason I think this is happening to your holster is that the USMC Black dye simply isn't being absorbed into the leather. IMHO it is not because of the Leather Balm and Atom Wax. If you want to check this out just spill a shot of black dye onto some different leather and try to remove it with Leather Balm and Atom Wax - I'll bet you can't do it!

Good luck,

Ray

[EMGBass]

Well, I stopped by the local Tandy store, picked up a few things, and I'm going all out tonight.

I am going to do a 6-way swatch with the USMC Black on top, and the Black Professional Oil Dye on bottom and compare results of Leather Balm, Satin Sheen, and Tan Kote on both dyes. (They didn't have Bag Kote and said they didn't carry it??) This should give me some direction.

All I'm looking for is a low gloss finish that will help to seal and provide some weather and crocking resistance. I also picked up some Pure Neatsfoot Oil. Let the games begin...

[MADMAX22]

I use atom wax alot and it will pull up dye if not dried properly or if there is extra dye ontop that didnt get absorbed into the leather. That being said I have noticed the same thing with tan kote and resolene.

As Ray stated sometimes the leather wont absorb it in certain spots. That or there could be something from being out at the retail store on the leather. I noticed this alot more with tandy leather.

One thing you could try is some oxilic acid or whatever it is, lemon juice and water also or a good deglazer, variouse methods. I use alcohol on mine to clean it up. Still this wont help if its a tanning process that is the culprit.

When I do my atom wax I usually start with a thin layer quickly applied. Let that dry, buff it out, then come back with a thicker layer. I do about three coats and let it sit over night to dry up nice and good. Then buff it out.

[gringobill]

I am new to leather working (about 9 days so far), and am having good luck with both a sheath and pancake holster design. I have read a lot on here, but I'm still having issues. First my process, then my problem...

After wet molding the holster and letting it dry overnight, I do a light Deglazing of the surface. Then I dye using Fiebing's USMC Black applied with sheepwool. I do basically two thorough coats in one sitting and let it dry. Then I buff the heck out of it. I do a light application of a leather lotion that I like (it's not any kind of finishing product), let it dry, and buff the heck out of it again. At this point the holster is basically looking how I like it. But then I apply a thin coat of Leather Balm with Atom Wax for a finishing coat, let that dry, and buff the heck out of it. At this point I notice a few spots where the color seems to be coming out, fading. It's mostly on high surfaces, areas that were probably touched/handled. Now, I am almost positive that this fading was not present before the Atom Wax. It happened with the sheath first, so I was almost expecting it with the holster I did later. Any suggestions?

Both the holster and the sheath look 95% awesome, aside from the faded areas. Now, when I wet molded the holster, I used a drop or two of soap to clean the surfaces, then I also Deglazed before dyeing. I always wear gloves when handling the leather from that point forward. I really doubt this is an issue of my hand oils or something being on the leather that is preventing the dye from taking. Again, any information or ideas would be awesome.

If I can get this sorted out, I'll post pics of my two new creations!

Hey there, you may have your problem straightened out by now......?

Dyeing something solid black is a challenge to begin with, I have seen a lot of discussion about it. It seems like some people may put on a base coat of a different color first before applying the black. I believe I have read that some of the holster manufacturers like Bianchi and Galco my dip their holsters rather than applying the dye by hand. That's a big commitment and expense if you are not a manufacturere!

I think cleaning with oxalic acid first is a good idea, also using a little oil to replace the oils in the leather removed by all the handling, water, and the bleaching.

Good luck!

Bill

[EMGBass]

I do appreciate all the responses regarding my problem! It has been somewhat handled. After more experimentation it seems the problem revolves around the spirit-based USMC Black dye. I had the same issues with three different pieces of hide. (Granted, they were all from Tandy.) When I switched to the Black Pro Oil dye, it seemed to correct the problem, although it is a much more matte finish than the USMC Black.

The pieces that I had finished with USMC seemed to work with a finish of Tan Kote. Oddly enough, the Pro Oil Black looked best with the Leather Balm that was giving me problems with the USMC.

Again, I'm very new to this, so some experimentation was definitely in order. I'm working on my third piece currently. The 1st project was a sheath for a Ka-Bar, the 2nd was the pancake holster for a J-Frame that I posted pics of (above), and this new project is kicking my butt!

It's a field holster for a S&W Trail Boss (3" .44 mag). I'm having to work out the holster design, the welt, the belt tunnel, and the thumb break! Oh, and it's going to be a cross-draw. Certainly much more difficult than my first two projects. I think I've got the pattern phase wrapped up, and it's time to start cutting leather and turning these ideas into something tangible.

[UncleGeorge]

I do appreciate all the responses regarding my problem! It has been somewhat handled. After more experimentation it seems the problem revolves around the spirit-based USMC Black dye. I had the same issues with three different pieces of hide. (Granted, they were all from Tandy.) When I switched to the Black Pro Oil dye, it seemed to correct the problem, although it is a much more matte finish than the USMC Black.

The pieces that I had finished with USMC seemed to work with a finish of Tan Kote. Oddly enough, the Pro Oil Black looked best with the Leather Balm that was giving me problems with the USMC.

Again, I'm very new to this, so some experimentation was definitely in order. I'm working on my third piece currently. The 1st project was a sheath for a Ka-Bar, the 2nd was the pancake holster for a J-Frame that I posted pics of (above), and this new project is kicking my butt!

It's a field holster for a S&W Trail Boss (3" .44 mag). I'm having to work out the holster design, the welt, the belt tunnel, and the thumb break! Oh, and it's going to be a cross-draw. Certainly much more difficult than my first two projects. I think I've got the pattern phase wrapped up, and it's time to start cutting leather and turning these ideas into something tangible.

Sounds like you found the same solution I did. Had the exact little problem using USMC Black. The problem shows up wherever I push hard on the leather to wet mold. Closes up the grain and makes it hard for the dye to absorb. Changin' to Pro Oil Black did the trick as it absorbs much better and leaves less dried residue. I vat dye my holsters and that helps too. The wet molding dries out the leather and leaves it thirsty for oil and when the oil dye is applied it sucks it up...takin' a drank. My words describin' what Fiebing told me.

[Luke Hatley]

ONLY PRO DYE FOR ME..........BLACK AND THE BROWNS...........

[EMGBass]

Well, here are the projects thus far...

First was the KaBar sheath, then the J-frame pancake holster, then the .44 mag field holster.

Still learning a lot, but I'm loving it. I'm currently working on a 1911 belt-slide design. I'll post pics when it's done.

Thanks everyone, for all the help!