Dennis Lane's Equine Profiling Card System for the Ridden Horse

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Here is a pictorial tutorial of how Dennis Lane's Equine Profiling Cards work. This system is designed to enable anyone to easily determine the shape of the card that fits correctly at four different places on a horse's back. The numbers can then be communicated to anyone else who has the card system – saddle makers, tree makers, etc. Dennis has used the system well in Australia with his trees, and has now made it available to us in North America. Here's how it works

1.) Become familiar with the cards. There are four different shapes (S4, S5, S6, S7) on the S cards and four (D4, D5, D6, D7) on the D cards for each of the A, B and C positions.

There is one extra card that has the A, B, and C position for shape D8, and a D9 shape for the C position.

There are three shapes to determine rock – R9 is the middle, R6 is flatter and R12 has the most curve.

There is a "ruler" on a rock card to help you measure more conveniently.

2.) Stand your horse as squarely as possible on flat ground. Find the lowest spot on your horse's back. This is the B position. Note: this spot corresponds to the 14th vertebrae and is situated above the horse's center of gravity when standing still. This is a consistent point on all horses from which all the other measurements are taken, making the system a consistent way to compare horses.

3.) Using a ruler, mark a spot 8" behind this spot. This is the C position.

4.) Feel for the back of the horse's shoulder blade (scapula). Mark this spot. This is the A position.

5.) Measure and record how far forward this spot is compared to the low point of the horse's back. (This horse measures 8".)

6.) Take one of the cards for the B position and place it on the horse's back at the B position you have marked. You are trying to find the shape that most closely matches the shape of your horse. Record this. This one obviously doesn't fit.

But this one does.

7.) Do the same for the C position. In all cases you are looking for fit all along the card, but especially where the bars fit on the horse's back. This one still has some clearance, and the ends stick in a bit.

This one fits.

8.) And the A position. This one seems to fit well down below, but the shape is wrong up top.

This one fits.

9.) Next, measure 3 ½" down from the centerline of the horse at position B.

10.) And C.

11.) Place the rock patterns perpendicular to the horse (not vertical compared to the ground) along this line 3 ½" off the centerline. Make sure the center mark on the pattern (marked 14 V) is at the B position. Keep the horse as square as possible with his head in its normal "working" position. You are trying to find the card that most closely matches the shape of your horse. Record this.

If the card has too much rock compared to the horse, it lifts off the back. Too little and the center doesn't meet, as in this case.

This one fits all along.

12.) Fill out the form sent to you, including the horse's name, age, sex (and number of foals if a mare), breed, what they are used for and any other comments about the horse, along with your results. This form can be sent to the saddle maker and then to the tree maker. Dennis also asks that you send him a copy, via e-mail or snail mail, so that he can continue to build his data base and improve his system to fit the North American horses as well.

Dennis Lane is a member of this board under his own name. If you want more information about receiving a set of cards, please PM him. A number of people on this forum are currently trying Dennis's system. He has worked with us on this post and would like feedback and free discussion on this forum about how his system is working for the rest of us.

[David Genadek]

I stand by what I said in the other post. He is choosing referance points that are variable which means the whole system will not allow for accurate comparison from back to back. It is a fine system for micro fitting an individual horse. Personally I don't want to chase that tail.

When I began to choose the crest of the wither, base of the wither and last rib it gave me the ability to make comparisons from back to back. In doing that I am defining the important zones those being the Whither area and the ribcage shape. I am capturing lengths and angles.

Whithers can be long or short and they can be set at many angles all of which can really effect your fitting zone.

David Genadek

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Anatomically, the thoracic vertebrae which make up the withers lean backwards. The lumbar vertebrae and the thoracic vertebrae just ahead of them lean forwards. At some point, there has to be one that goes straight up. This is called the anticlinal vertebrae, and in the horse is it the 14th vertebrae, plus or minus one because there is always some anatomical variation. This vertebra must be shorter than the ones on either side or else they would hit and cause pain. Thus, the anticlinal vertebra is the lowest point of the horse’s back. If a horse is built severely downhill, the anatomy doesn’t change but it is possible that the lowest point might appear to be a bit forward because the whole vertebral column is tilted forward, but this can be easily taken into account. This low point is also consistently above the horse’s center of gravity when it is standing still. It was also used by some old time saddle makers as a reference point when they were designing saddles.

Using this as a “datum measurement”, in Dennis’s terms, the other measurements are taken relative to it. This makes it very useful in comparing between horses. If you take a measurement 4”, 6”, 8”, and 10” behind that spot, the shapes will all be different. Horses’ backs are vary in length but the same bar length might be put on them all. By using a consistent point to measure, you are fitting the same point of the bar to the same place on the horse’s back relative to the 14th vertebra. The same idea goes for the other measurements.

David, you have a system that works well for how you design trees, and that is great. This system was designed to be as easy to use as possible and as consistent as possible in comparing different horses. Thus it can accurately convey information regarding the shape of the horse’s back from saddle maker to tree maker in a very simple format. Nothing is perfect, but out of all the “shape communicator” ideas, this one seems to be the easiest and the best, so we are trying it out.

[David Genadek]

Anatomically, the thoracic vertebrae which make up the withers lean backwards. The lumbar vertebrae and the thoracic vertebrae just ahead of them lean forwards. At some point, there has to be one that goes straight up. This is called the anticlinal vertebrae, and in the horse is it the 14th vertebrae, plus or minus one because there is always some anatomical variation. This vertebra must be shorter than the ones on either side or else they would hit and cause pain. Thus, the anticlinal vertebra is the lowest point of the horse's back. If a horse is built severely downhill, the anatomy doesn't change but it is possible that the lowest point might appear to be a bit forward because the whole vertebral column is tilted forward, but this can be easily taken into account. This low point is also consistently above the horse's center of gravity when it is standing still. It was also used by some old time saddle makers as a reference point when they were designing saddles.

Using this as a "datum measurement", in Dennis's terms, the other measurements are taken relative to it. This makes it very useful in comparing between horses. If you take a measurement 4", 6", 8", and 10" behind that spot, the shapes will all be different. Horses' backs are vary in length but the same bar length might be put on them all. By using a consistent point to measure, you are fitting the same point of the bar to the same place on the horse's back relative to the 14th vertebra. The same idea goes for the other measurements.

David, you have a system that works well for how you design trees, and that is great. This system was designed to be as easy to use as possible and as consistent as possible in comparing different horses. Thus it can accurately convey information regarding the shape of the horse's back from saddle maker to tree maker in a very simple format. Nothing is perfect, but out of all the "shape communicator" ideas, this one seems to be the easiest and the best, so we are trying it out.

Rod,

Ok I see the intent is good. But here is where I have the problem. " Find the lowest spot on your horse’s back"

If you call it base of whither or 14th vertibrea I can accept it and think it is great. If you say Lowest point of the back, I then have a problem because the issue becomes very confused.

I have attached pictures of two horse's and thier back tracings. In both I have marked the 14th vertibrae in red and the low point of the back in blue.

Clearly when you look at the horses they have not been ridden by a skilled rider. Their conformation has been altered. Do you fit that or what their body should look like? If these people used this system would they properly identify the indexing point. Maybe my reference is scewed because I don't do much local buisness and for me I need to get information from a thousands of miles away so for me I need a system that has checks and balances so I can make sure the client has done it properly. Your client is the saddle maker and they can probable make the correct judgement calls.

David Genadek

[daviD A Morris]

Whithers can be long or short and they can be set at many angles all of which can really effect your fitting zone.

David Genadek

Withers at different angles??? I thought that they were all prety much staight up and down, and run lengthwise along the horse !!! just joking

I assume that you mean the thoracic vertebrae that form the withers are at different angles on diferent horses.

Given that the vertebrae should be well cleared of any contact from the saddle I would not have thought that the angle of those vertebrae would not be significant. That the angle of the verterbra would only make the withers extend further (or lesser) rearward along the back. Which then becomes important to the saddle maker (rather than tree maker) to make sure that the front edge of the ground seat (back edge of hand hole ) clears the wither. I'm sure that we've all seen a saddle or two put on a horse with a long high wither and the gullet cleared the wither but the front edge of the ground seat pressed on the spine. Especially back in the days of the "buster welch" flat seat cutting board saddles.

David, I'm just trying to fully understand exactly what you mean, cause when I first read your post I was thinking that you were drawing a correlation between the shape of the horse's back where the bearing surface of the bars fit, and the angle of the withers .

Just wondering if you could clarify that for me

regads

dam

Edited February 7, 2008 by daviD A Morris

[daviD A Morris]

David

I like the little bucksin horse, he's my size. This raises another question:- Do find that as people get older and fatter they need a larger saddle seat, but are buying smaller horses so that they can mount with less strain? The result is you are trying to fit a longer seat length saddle onto smaller horses that have shorter backs? What do we do?

regards

dam

[daviD A Morris]

The 14th thoracic vertebrae is found further rearward that most people first think. Much closer to the blue dots in these back mappings than to the red dots.

To “palpate the spinous processes” – just big words for “feel the tops of the vertebra”

If some hay is placed on the ground for the horse to eat, then while his head is down it is possible to feel the tops of the vertebrae quite easily. With the horse’s head down the supraspinous ligament is pulled taut making finding the vertebrae easier.

Commencing at the front of the wither and working rearward. thoracic vertebrae number one, T1, is not able to be felt as it is too short. T2, through to about T8 or T9 can easily be determined, by feeling for the gaps between the tops of them. T3 is technically the highest point of the wither, but in practice that can vary from one horse to another.

At around T8 or T9 the vertebrae can’t be determined any more and one needs to then start back at the sacrum and work forward.

There is a very easily distinguished large gap between the last lumbar vertebra, L6, and the first sacral vertebra right on top of the rump, at the lumbosacral junction.

Working forward determine each vertebra in order. L6, L5, L4, L3, L2, & L1. Followed by T18, the last thoracic vertebra, then T17, T16, and you probably won’t be able to determine any more.

Put some chalk marks at the T16 and the T9 or whichever were the last that could be determined. Now estimate where the T14 is.

In this photo I have marked:-

- T3 at top of the wither,

- approximately around the edge of the cartilage elongation of the scapula,

- T16

- The gap between L6 and the sacrum. I think there is actually a name for the gap, someone help me out here.

- T9 is also indicated however it is actually slightly further forward than it appears in this photo. Angle of photo combined with angle of the line which I drew have distorted somehow.

The point is:- Between T9 and T16 there is T10, T11, T12, T13, T14, & T15, 6 vertebra and T14 is 2nd from the rear. Further rearward than what you first think.

Note that the horse in this photo is precisely 14.2 hands high and has quite a short back even for his height.

There are several other accepted methods of determining the position of the T14. Pete Gorrell explains them very eloquently in the classes that he gives and the other methods are actually less involved than the one explained here, however, “off-the-top-of-my-head” I would not want to explain them without my notes for fear of making a technical error and to keep this posting relatively brief. All the methods concur about the position of T14.

In my experience, for the purposes of using Dennis Lane’s cards, an inch either way doesn’t change a category into which a horse fits best. There is just not enough “twist” in the contour of the horses shape to jump it from one category to the next within a few inches movement from front to rear.

As and indication, here is a superimposition of the “S” cards for the profile at T14 (or cross-section B ) just to show the relative change in angle from one category to next.

Let me just emphasise:

DO NOT GO THROUGH ALL THIS PROCEDURE TO FIND T14 EVERY TIME YOU USE THE CARDS TO MEASURE A HORSE. Just use the lowest point of the back.

Happy to hear from any one on this topic, my mind is open.

dam

Edited February 11, 2008 by daviD A Morris

[David Genadek]

Withers at different angles??? I thought that they were all prety much staight up and down, and run lengthwise along the horse !!! just joking

I assume that you mean the thoracic vertebrae that form the withers are at different angles on diferent horses.

Given that the vertebrae should be well cleared of any contact from the saddle I would not have thought that the angle of those vertebrae would not be significant. That the angle of the verterbra would only make the withers extend further (or lesser) rearward along the back. Which then becomes important to the saddle maker (rather than tree maker) to make sure that the front edge of the ground seat (back edge of hand hole ) clears the wither. I'm sure that we've all seen a saddle or two put on a horse with a long high wither and the gullet cleared the wither but the front edge of the ground seat pressed on the spine. Especially back in the days of the "buster welch" flat seat cutting board saddles.

David, I'm just trying to fully understand exactly what you mean, cause when I first read your post I was thinking that you were drawing a correlation between the shape of the horse's back where the bearing surface of the bars fit, and the angle of the withers .

Just wondering if you could clarify that for me

regads

dam

For acuracy sakes I'm talking about the long spinous process's that are the whither which can be different leangths and angles. This creates the forward limit of the fit zone and in my paradigm is where the twist of the bar occurs.

For those interested in the whither and it's function Dr Bennett did a great article named The Wonder of Whithers that was published in Equus Magizine. While she was writting it we had a great discussion of how the whither related to saddle fit and some where around 2 am we filled a sink with water and started plunging glasses in the sink to get a handle how they might effect the tie in to the rib cage. A fun excercise that can help a saddle maker understand that relationship.

I stand corrected on the low point of the back issue but will keep my eyes open for exceptions. My concern with any system is that it will have people fitting poor horsemanship rather than the back as it should be.

My purpose here is to offer a contrast to stimulate thought and discussion. It was not a to long ago that it was a common belief that the whither holds the saddle on. It seems Orthoflex helped push that concept away now every one has decided to place the saddles further back . Here is a link to a film of

who is perhaps the last of the great masters of the high school. You can see that he has the saddle over the shoulder not on the shoulder and he is sitting at the base of the whither. In my mind a discussion of any fitting system has to begin with where you want the rider to end up sitting.

The gap between L6 and the sacrum I think there is actually a name for the gap, Lumbar span which is longer on gaited breeds It can often be broken down due to poor riding this is where I will be looking for the exception to the low point of the back. I hope I'm wrong.

David Genadek

[David Genadek]

I have given this concept of using T14 some more thought. I'm having a real hard time understanding why anyone could think that this makes any sense. I'm not an expert on anatomy or equine biomaechanics but I have worked with an internationally respected expert in this area for many years. I contacted her and asked her what I am not understanding here is her reply. (posted with her permission)

David, sometimes I do wonder when reading some of these things on the

>> Internet, not so much about peoples' level of knowledge or experience --

>> because it is in fact a fairly rare thing that any person would get an

>> opportunity to handle a real horse skeleton, let alone under the

>> guidance

>> of a teacher; so we can forgive them simply not knowing. But there still

>> remains the matter of being able to think logically.

>>

>> It is going too far, in the first place, for anybody to state that

>> horses

>> "always" are lowest in the back in any one spot. I have seen horses

>> whose

>> backs had dropped, or were formed low congenitally, right behind the

>> withers, more or less in the middle of the freespan, and back in the

>> lumbar area. Where the horse's back is low is, further, a unique

>> combination in each case, of factors including the horse's overall build

>> and body-balance, the strength or weakness of the ligamentous sheathing

>> that holds the spinal chain together, the style of training or riding

>> the

>> horse has previously experienced, his health status and his injury

>> history.

>>

>> As to body balance, this is something I have been pointing out the

>> importance of for years. It is the strongest single predictor of how

>> easy

>> it is going to be for a horse to collect and to carry himself and his

>> rider with ease and lightness. As you know, I measure "overall body

>> balance" by looking to see how much back-to-front drop there is in a

>> line

>> drawn from the core of the loins (the center of the lumbosacral joint)

>> to

>> the center of the C5-C6 neck joint.

>>

>> But you can also use this line as a predictor of how "jammed" a horse is

>> going to be through the shoulders and in the anterior part of the

>> freespan; this is only another way to state the "downward tilt" that you

>> have noticed to be most useful in saddle design and fitting. In simple

>> terms, the more that line slopes downward, the deeper and tighter the

>> curve from C5 to T18 is going to be. The bottom of this curve is at the

>> base of the neck, where it joins onto the thorax, but the important

>> place

>> for saddle fitting would be the area right behind the withers, which is

>> ahead of C14. This is where it seems to me that most horses are

>> "jammed",

>> and where correct saddle fit and good horsemanship are going to help

>> them

>> the most.

>>

>> Anyone who wants proof of this can take a look at my horses, or my

>> students' horses, or those, in a larger sense, that are in our "school",

>> because we so often teach the animals to stand up on the circus drum.

>> Standing on the drum pushes the whole block of their forequarter up, and

>> you can easily see (anyone can take photos and prove it to himself) that

>> if you take a real downhill horse, who has a sharp angle or dip at the

>> back of his withers and his butt higher than the center of his back, and

>> stand him up there on the drum, that the whole withers area, both in

>> front

>> of it and in back of it, opens out like a fan. The "jam" comes right out

>> of their back; they are basculed; they are rounded up -- thanks to the

>> effect of the drum.

>>

>> This sort of horse is hard to train and hard to ride beautifully,

>> because

>> unless you're riding uphill all the time -- which of course you can't be

>> -- then the animal is going to have more trouble lifting himself. A

>> skillful horseman can work on this by making sure the animal is

>> thoroughly

>> laterally suppled, because no horse, not even the most superbly built

>> for

>> riding, can lift himself and the rider unless he is first laterally

>> supple. So you do that for him, and you ask of him many times to

>> correctly

>> step backwards one step at a time, and you teach him to jump small bars

>> and go over cavalletti on the longe line, and you work on correct stops

>> where he has to engage his hind end, and all of these things will help

>> him

>> get strong enough and supple enough so that he lifts and "opens" his

>> back

>> better when being ridden. But it's still a tough row to hoe. The Germans

>> call this type of horse "uberbauen" -- "overbuilt behind" -- and they

>> reject them for topclass breeding.

>>

>> Now as to logic, there is just one more thing, and that is to remind

>> your

>> correspondents on the Internet saddlers' forum, that if you take a

>> tracing

>> of a low-backed horse and cut the tracing out of cardboard, you can

>> orient

>> the cardboard cutout any way you want to. And this is all they're doing.

>> You can take any horse at all and rotate him a little (or maybe tilt

>> your

>> head) and force it to come out that the low spot is "at C14". As an

>> anatomist, I say good luck to them also in actually locating C14. In all

>> honesty, the best that can be done as to finding EXACTLY which

>> intervertebral joint your hand may be on is: you can find C5-C6; you can

>> find T18-L1; and you can find L6-Sacrum. Otherwise -- unless they've got

>> an X-Ray of the living animal -- they do not know, and there is no way

>> to

>> know, exactly which joint they are on.

>>

>> Cheers, and hope this helps. -- Deb

David Genadek

[DennisLane]

Hi all.

It has appears that there is a need to explain in more detail about the cards. How they originated, where we are going & what we are trying to achieve. I will attempt do that by going back to the start.

Back in the late 1980s I was struggling with my saddles because I felt that the trees weren’t good enough. I couldn’t find a tree maker to produce the trees that I needed to make a better saddle so the hunt was on. I was very fortunate to have Ray Hunt in my shop one day. I was telling him my problems & he said that the man that I need to see was Dale Harwood. Ray also heard a whisper that Dale was coming to Australia to conduct a clinic on the very subject. He did & I was very fortunate to attend. That was in April 1992, the clinic went for 28 days.

The next piece of good fortune that came my way was meeting Hans Van Hees. Hans shared the method of measuring horses Backs that he uses. This is basically the same method that most people use to map a horses back using peace of wire or a flexible curve. This is the same method that the cards are based on. Now all I had to do was apply the skills that I had learnt making & fitting the Australian stock saddle with the skills that I learnt from Dale & the method that Hans shared with me on how to map a horses backs.

It took many years to develop & combine these skills. Over time I have became more & more convinced that it is extremely difficult or near impossible to fit a saddle because we can’t see how well the bars sit on the horse. So now I control the fit of the saddle by controlling the fit of the trees.

From the start I could see the potential for error was high simply because of the very nature of the material being used to take the measurements. It also relied very heavily on how particular the individual was in taking the measurement. At the time the best way I could combat this problem was to keep them & start comparing them with each other, hoping that the errors that I new were there would average out due to the numbers. It didn’t take long before I could see the categories start to form. It took many years of collecting & sorting to get what I thought were the average shapes in each of the various categories that were forming. At this stage I was still keeping track of these shapes by keeping the male side. To collect the information I was still advising my customers to use the flexible curve or soft wire, even with its inaccuracy’s. At the time I couldn’t think of any thing better. I had on many occasions kept the female side of the tracings to check the accuracy, but it didn’t click for many years. Eventually it did & the cards started to take shape. They have undergone many changes & I believe that they will keep evolving for many years to come. For what we know now is not what we will know in ten years time.

Originally when the method of measuring horses backs was explained the scapular was the datum & the other 2 measurements were taken at 8” increments. It was explained that you could take them at 2” or 4” increments if you like but Hans thought that 3 was enough. The top line of the spine was also taken. I have experimented with where to take these measurements for a while. One of the things that I noticed when riding a horse bare back was, no matter what horse we ride or what we do while riding the horse we always end up sitting in the same spot on the horses back. I use to call this the bare back position. While researching the anatomy of the horse I learnt that this is directly over the 14v & that this is the centre of the horse balance in the stationary position, so I changed my datum to the 14v. This according to my research is the most consistent anatomical point on the horses back.

I still used 8” as my distances between where I took the other 2 measurements. The back of the scapular was & is the point in front that I aim for, in those days the majority of horses that I saw the distance was 8”. I now know that this is not the case & this distance changes for two reasons that we know of at this point of time.

1- Proportionally, a 12 hand pony to a 17 hand horse.

2- Conformation, the slop of the shoulder.

The range seems to be between 6.5” to 8.5”. The measure behind is still set at the 8” mark. I tried to line it up with the last vertebrae but I came to the conclusion that this is not consistent.

Horses back don’t always have the same number of vertebrae & the length of the back changes due to the same reasons above. The length of the saddle is also a variable, so to me the obvious conclusion is by setting the distance at least we are measuring the horse back in the same place relative to the tree. The back of the tree seems to have more scope for variation than the front. I have come to this conclusion because we see more horses injured in the front of the saddle than we do behind. This doesn’t mean the back of the tree isn’t important it is. I also used the top line of the horse for many years to set the guilt hight for the fork as well as the cantle, but as time past I noticed that the settings for these were the same relevant to the category the horse fits into. At some stage in the development of the cards, (I don’t remember when), I have added the rock card & position it approximately where the centre of the bar would sit on my trees. This card keeps track of the amount of bow the horse has in his back from front to rear.

This pretty much explains the cards & how they got to where they were before I started to share them with fellow saddle & tree makers. I don’t think that I have invented anything new. This has & is still being done in some form by many sadder & tree makers. The only thing that I have done is to categorize the common shapes that I had access to.

The first person that I shared the cards with was David Morris. He informed me in fact what I had arrived at was a set of G O NO GO CARDS. A system that is commonly use in the manufacturing industry for quality control. When we look around the same method is used to control or grade the size & shape of many day to day items (sieve in grain harvesters, grading metal for our roads, fruit, eggs, vegetables, etc).

I have used this system for many years with both my saddle & tree customers with a very high level of success. In share this with others in the industry to see if it can be a useful tool to them in obtaining practically & more accurate information from their customers. This tool has allowed me to make a more informed decision on the size tree that will suit the range of horses that a particular customer has in their string.

Next posts I will try explain were I would like this to go.

[AZThunderPony]

Dennis, I heard trough the grape vine that you are coming to the US to give seminars or something to the affect. Will you be coming to Arizona? I would love to attend.

S

[DennisLane]

Hi Susan.

We will be there early May through to early June. Our schedule is extremely tight. We haven’t got any thing planed for Arizona. I am very interested in your problems & would like to see them first hand. If you P M me your address I will look at our schedule to see if we can squeeze it in if that is suitable.

Dennis

[AZThunderPony]

Hi Susan.

We will be there early May through to early June. Our schedule is extremely tight. We haven’t got any thing planed for Arizona. I am very interested in your problems & would like to see them first hand. If you P M me your address I will look at our schedule to see if we can squeeze it in if that is suitable.

Dennis

Will do! Thanks,

Susan

[daviD A Morris]

Hi Guys,

To anyone who may wish to contact us (us being Dave Morris, Dennis Lane & Hank Statham) between now and June 7th, we are in the USA & Cananda, and can be contacted at:

damorris@exemail.com.au

We are "on the road" so we will only be checking that email address every couple of days.

We are having one amazing trip, meeting lots of you guys, and looking forward to meeting more of you.

bye for now

dam

[Johanna]

new website for Dennis Lane and David Morris:

http://dennislane.com.au

Mail can also be sent to Dennis and David by the board via PM.

Johanna

[AZThunderPony]

Well Dennis, DaviD and Hank were here on Sunday last. We had about 3 hours of very enlightening discussions while we measured my three Spanish Mustangs. As was expected there weren't any new shapes among my horses, and the guys had the opportunity to measure two other SM's up in Wyoming as well with similar results. I did find Dennis's idea of where he would set the rigging to address the rigging issues I and others have experienced. All three men had some great input to give even with differing opinions. Bottom line the Equine Profiling Card System is very simple to use, and provides a wealth of information. There was a comment among themselves that I wasnt to certain I heard right. It was regarding a similarity of narrowness at some point along the back across the SM's they were able to measure. Guys when you get back could you share? I researched pedigrees and gait types of the horses logged so far and added this data to my own data log as if there is some similarity between shapes across a certain criteria it would be very interesting information to have. If not it certainly didnt hurt anything. The sad part as none of my horses were in proper shape or age, one was quite thin from being injured and raising a foal, another was 30 days away from foaling, and the other was an unbacked 3 years old very small stallion. The two that were measured up in Wyoming were saddle geldings from stouter built blooldines.

All in all the project of measuring SM's with Dennis' card system is taking off and I hope to have at least 100 horses measured. In a breed with a total registered number of 4000 (give or take a few) and a large number of them (approx 1000 give or take a 100) deceased foundation stock and another 500 or so under saddle age. Especially since our stock primarily trace to around 100-150 foundation horses. I still feel 100 measured SM's will give us a good baseline for our breed. There are a good many Colonial Spanish strains/bloodlines out there too that fall outside SMR stock who would add some interesting dimensions to the project. I have decided to run a parallel data log for those horses as well.

Right: Hank Statham holding The Spirit of Bear Paw (3 year old Spanish Mustang stallion)

Middle: DaviD Morris holding a profiling card

Left: Dennis Lane

Anyway, Thanks guys for a delightful visit and for sharing your knowledge and open minds. It was a monumental day for Spanish Mustangs. Hank, I cut down all the tumbleweed and sagebrush it being a fire hazard and all. lol

S

Celt's Baroque Spanish Mustangs

THE PONY EXPRESSION (see the Australian Saddle Makers on the blog)

Edited June 7, 2008 by AZThunderPony

[AZThunderPony]

Dennis or DaviD, are you guys working in Paypal for future sales of your card system?

;)S

[DennisLane]

We are in the process of adding an email address and Papal to the web site so people can order and pay for the cards straight from there. It may take another week or so to have it up and running. Until then those who require a set can contact David or myself and we will take care of it for you.

Dennis

[Margaux]

Okay.

Let's say that we have a perfect profile of the horse's back.

How is the tree constructed to take into account the fact that there is leather, fleece, and a blanket/pad in between the tree and the horse's back?

Obviously you can't just put 2" (or whatever your estimate is) straight down, it has to be normal (perpendicular) to the surface of the tree.

Who does that calculation?

How does is that taken into account?

Thanks in advance,

Margaux

[daviD A Morris]

Okay.

......Obviously you can't just put 2" (or whatever your estimate is) straight down, it has to be normal (perpendicular) to the surface of the tree.

......

Thanks in advance,

Margaux

Margaux,

You are absolutely right! It is not that simple, and then you have to make alowances for the horses movement and the back changes shape throughout the stride and diferent strides and activities etc. And that leads to such a wide variation in opinions on what, where and how those allowances for movement should be made. Ask 6 "saddle fitter's" for their opinions and you'll get 7 answers!

Even with a casting of the hors's back, you can not just make allowance for the padding (perpendicular to the surface) and then make a "negative" of it and use that as the bottom of the tree - it don't work! It is much like footwear for people. The last that shoes are made on is not the same shape as a casting of a person's foot.

OK what I've just said may sound very negative and you may now be thinking - "well, why bother with any of this". Well Dennis Lane and I (and many others) beleive that the first step toward reliably improving the comfort for the horse, is to be able to accurately describe the shape of the horse's back, and then communicate that shape to anyone else accross the world. The advantages of this particular system are that this communication can take place without having to send anything through the post. Another advantage is that the numbers designated to each of the shapes make for easy comparison of one horse to another, for example: anyone familar with the system (anyone who owns a set of the cards) imediately recognises that a horse who measures D8 or D9 is a very solid wide horse compared to say a D4, and an R12 has a lot of "front to rear" rock. A horse that measures R6 is very flat along the back. The Dennis Lane Cards are solely a method of measuring the horse's backs, recording those measurements and comunicating those measurements.

The ideal way for the treemakers to incorporate the Dennis Lane Cards into their communication system is to measure the horses that they have made those trees to idealy fit. Take for example Rod Nikkel would have access to a horse that his "full QH - 4-1/2 x 93" trees were designed to fit, and now he measures that horse with the DL cards and finds that that horse measures D7D8D8R9. Now Rod knows that that particular tree fits horses in that range. If he then recieves an order for a tree to fit a horse that is D9 with R12 rock, he knows that this horse is slightly wider/fatter and has more "front-to-rear" rock. Please do NOT quote these numbers/measurement I am just making them up as an example. Another treemaker's "full QH" fit may have been designed to fit a horses even wider. He may have had access to horses that measure D9. Both trees will still fit horses up in that D7 - D9 range, to varying degrees. While there are 9 different sizes in the cross-section measurements, we are definitely not advocating that there should be 9 different sizes of tree.

Hope the explanation helps

dam