Juki 1710 Post-Bed Worth It For Leather Handbags?

[flashfasbo]

Hey all,

Hopefully my post isn't overly long, general, and griping, but would welcome any comments or opinions from those experienced in these or similar machines, especially in the context of making leather handbags or other leather fashion accessories...

We have been making leather handbags for a couple of years now, and have come to the conclusion (as so many have before us) that it's just not worth wasting our efforts on an inconsistent machine. We have struggled with our current cylinder arm machine for about 18 months. On again, off again tangling, skipping -- all without much rhyme or reason, or so it would seem to us, anyway, but as it always goes with those new to industrial machines, were never sure if it was the machine, or us at fault. Being brand new to industrial machines, we're sure at least some of our troubles were self-inflicted, like not realizing how often we had to add oil to the beast! That aside, we also have been disappointed with how often we had to take it in for servicing, recalibrating/resynchronizing, or whatever had to be done. Usually we were very happy with the machine right after a servicing, but slowly over a period of a few weeks, things would usually deteriorate again into various tangling and inconsistency issues. At this point we're ready to chalk it up to a korean make not quite built to the high tolerances we were hoping for (but again, maybe it's just us).

But the reason I'm posting... is not so much to diagnose the above (although I'm sure we could have an interesting talk about that, even just to commiserate), but rather to discuss what we're now thinking of purchasing: A Juki PLC-1710 or PLC-1710-7 post-bed machine. Our previous cylinder machine (a Sunstar KM-390) cost us about CAD$3000 total, brand new with stand and servo, and the base Juki 1710 looks like it will run us about (gasp) CAD$6400 including a stand, and servo motor, before taxes and so forth. This is just for the base model. We are willing to go for it. However, we still have some remaining reservations if the post-bed configuration is worth the apparent premium over a cylinder.

For the Juki post-bed, we would also be quite happy to consider the 1710-7 variant of this machine, which adds various pneumatic features like auto thread trimming, a device to instantly adjust the vertical movement range of the presser foot (the "DL device"). Also a BT device and AK device (I forget what those do, exactly, and the brochure doesn't help much -- why are the documentation and marketing materials for industrial machines so abysmal!). Also, if we add Juki's high-torque servo motor/controller SC-510 we get even more cool things, like the ability to go at a crawl sewing speed, and track bobbin thread remaining, and other niceties, some of which I'd have to admit would be nice to have, and possibly useful, especially if they mean a higher quality, more consistent finished leather product. Yet still more, we could also add the top-mounted control panel shown in most of Juki's marketing photos for even more features.

HOWEVER, by the time this motor/controller is added to the 1710-7 package (apparently required for many of the features) we're now looking at over CAD$10,000, which..... is not cheap for one sewing machine, especially when we're thinking we'd also like 2 or 3 machines of different sorts around the shop for various tasks eventually (we also do some dressmaking, so far just on a domestic Bernina).

Now, as I say, we're *willing* to drop $6k on a good, reliable, surgically accurate and consistent machine that can be passed from generation to generation, but it's not clear to me that the benefit of some of these pneumatic features are worth the cost for a small, non-factory operation. Still, as a gadget freak, my thinking would have been that we can buy the base model 1710 and have the option to add features later, but apparently that may not be possible unless we commit to some features at the start, since not all features can be retro-fitted later, so we're told. So we're left with the dilemma whether it's worth paying an additional thousand or more on top of the already-steep $6400 price tag to have the option of adding features later. I'm quite ready to conclude none of these pneumatic features are worth it since so much high quality work is done with fully manual rigs.

Pricing and features aside, the other major thing we're wrangling with is whether a post-bed buys us valuable functionality in our application compared to a cylinder arm machine. From what I can tell, we could buy a Juki cylinder machine for a couple of thousand less than their single-needle post-bed 1710. (Hard to tell though since Canadian pricing information seems to be held as top secret information -- Feels like we're totally dependent on the local dealers to tell us the prices, and we have very little point of comparison). [Found some US street pricing for Juki's here, should serve as a reasonable price reference for us: http://www.american-...l-machines.html]. But if we did want to consider a Juki cylinder, it's hard to determine which one would be best, since according to the marketing materials, they're all amazing machines, each capable and EXCELLING at everything, and have NO WEAKNESSES!!!!! (See this Juki page, for example, and try to tell the benefits of one machine over another: http://www.juki.co.j...r_e/cylinder_e/).

Thinking about the actual physical sewing motions involved, there's no clear winner I can see between a post configuration, vs a cylinder configuration. It's like, One will excel at sewing the bottom of a bag, and the Other will excel at sewing the sides of a bag. But just re-orient the articles slightly, and either will work just fine for both applications, with minor differences in technique. (or maybe the differences aren't so minor?).

Cheers, and thanks for any comments in advance!

Edited June 22, 2011 by flashfasbo

[Art]

Hi Flash,

Before you spend 10K on a machine, you have to consider if it will make you at least 10X ROI in a lifetime.

Now, as far as the difference between post and cylinder, they can both do equal work, except for repairs, where the post will be able to do things without deconstructing the bag or garment, sometimes. Admittedly there is that one time in life when you are going to need a patcher.

Gizmos are neet, but quite often unnecessary and too often a PIA. Take the trimmers for instance; with 33 or more bonded nylon or poly thread (we use 46 and 69 a lot) the trimmers won't stay sharp for very long, and that is annoying as all get out. Needle positioning motors are a great thing to have and you start to depend on them a bit, but they are handy.

I have a needle feed machine from China, the spitting image of a Pfaff 491, and it performs just as well. It goes for $2300 or so and hasn't missed a stitch. There is another machine that is drop feed and has reverse that is around $1600. I have Cobra machines. The owner, Steve is an excellent technician AND customer service rep who has a great reputation for service. If Steve can't work you through even moderately serious troubles over the phone, then maybe you shouldn't have a sewing machine. Obviously, when major things break, the head needs to go back, and Steve is pretty accommodating about that too.

So, I would thing twice about dropping $6k much less $10k on a machine as low tech as a post machine. You can take what you save and buy a clicker and some dies.

Art

Hey all,

Hopefully my post isn't overly long, general, and griping, but would welcome any comments or opinions from those experienced in these or similar machines, especially in the context of making leather handbags or other leather fashion accessories...

We have been making leather handbags for a couple of years now, and have come to the conclusion (as so many have before us) that it's just not worth wasting our efforts on an inconsistent machine. We have struggled with our current cylinder arm machine for about 18 months. On again, off again tangling, skipping -- all without much rhyme or reason, or so it would seem to us, anyway, but as it always goes with those new to industrial machines, were never sure if it was the machine, or us at fault. Being brand new to industrial machines, we're sure at least some of our troubles were self-inflicted, like not realizing how often we had to add oil to the beast! That aside, we also have been disappointed with how often we had to take it in for servicing, recalibrating/resynchronizing, or whatever had to be done. Usually we were very happy with the machine right after a servicing, but slowly over a period of a few weeks, things would usually deteriorate again into various tangling and inconsistency issues. At this point we're ready to chalk it up to a korean make not quite built to the high tolerances we were hoping for (but again, maybe it's just us).

But the reason I'm posting... is not so much to diagnose the above (although I'm sure we could have an interesting talk about that, even just to commiserate), but rather to discuss what we're now thinking of purchasing: A Juki PLC-1710 or PLC-1710-7 post-bed machine. Our previous cylinder machine (a Sunstar KM-390) cost us about CAD$3000 total, brand new with stand and servo, and the base Juki 1710 looks like it will run us about (gasp) CAD$6400 including a stand, and servo motor, before taxes and so forth. This is just for the base model. We are willing to go for it. However, we still have some remaining reservations if the post-bed configuration is worth the apparent premium over a cylinder.

For the Juki post-bed, we would also be quite happy to consider the 1710-7 variant of this machine, which adds various pneumatic features like auto thread trimming, a device to instantly adjust the vertical movement range of the presser foot (the "DL device"). Also a BT device and AK device (I forget what those do, exactly, and the brochure doesn't help much -- why are the documentation and marketing materials for industrial machines so abysmal!). Also, if we add Juki's high-torque servo motor/controller SC-510 we get even more cool things, like the ability to go at a crawl sewing speed, and track bobbin thread remaining, and other niceties, some of which I'd have to admit would be nice to have, and possibly useful, especially if they mean a higher quality, more consistent finished leather product. Yet still more, we could also add the top-mounted control panel shown in most of Juki's marketing photos for even more features.

HOWEVER, by the time this motor/controller is added to the 1710-7 package (apparently required for many of the features) we're now looking at over CAD$10,000, which..... is not cheap for one sewing machine, especially when we're thinking we'd also like 2 or 3 machines of different sorts around the shop for various tasks eventually (we also do some dressmaking, so far just on a domestic Bernina).

Now, as I say, we're *willing* to drop $6k on a good, reliable, surgically accurate and consistent machine that can be passed from generation to generation, but it's not clear to me that the benefit of some of these pneumatic features are worth the cost for a small, non-factory operation. Still, as a gadget freak, my thinking would have been that we can buy the base model 1710 and have the option to add features later, but apparently that may not be possible unless we commit to some features at the start, since not all features can be retro-fitted later, so we're told. So we're left with the dilemma whether it's worth paying an additional thousand or more on top of the already-steep $6400 price tag to have the option of adding features later. I'm quite ready to conclude none of these pneumatic features are worth it since so much high quality work is done with fully manual rigs.

Pricing and features aside, the other major thing we're wrangling with is whether a post-bed buys us valuable functionality in our application compared to a cylinder arm machine. From what I can tell, we could buy a Juki cylinder machine for a couple of thousand less than their single-needle post-bed 1710. (Hard to tell though since Canadian pricing information seems to be held as top secret information -- Feels like we're totally dependent on the local dealers to tell us the prices, and we have very little point of comparison). [Found some US street pricing for Juki's here, should serve as a reasonable price reference for us: http://www.american-...l-machines.html]. But if we did want to consider a Juki cylinder, it's hard to determine which one would be best, since according to the marketing materials, they're all amazing machines, each capable and EXCELLING at everything, and have NO WEAKNESSES!!!!! (See this Juki page, for example, and try to tell the benefits of one machine over another: http://www.juki.co.j...r_e/cylinder_e/).

Thinking about the actual physical sewing motions involved, there's no clear winner I can see between a post configuration, vs a cylinder configuration. It's like, One will excel at sewing the bottom of a bag, and the Other will excel at sewing the sides of a bag. But just re-orient the articles slightly, and either will work just fine for both applications, with minor differences in technique. (or maybe the differences aren't so minor?).

Cheers, and thanks for any comments in advance!

[Anne Bonnys Locker]

I agree with Art. That is a lot of money to tie up in one machine and the more tech = the more problems.

I am also concerned that this machine has to regularly go to the shop for servicing. Many machines get hammered for years on end with nothing but regular cleaning and oiling (every 8 hours of use is a rough guide) so it suggests to me that there is something inherently wrong that your mechanic is not sorting out for you here. A good mechanic should be able to tell you why the machine is playing up and how to cure the fault properly.

[albane]

Flash,

The reality is that no one machine can do everything. Depending on the environment a cheep machine my outperform a high end piece of equipment.

When I buy equipment I conciser the day to day requirements and buy a task specific unit.

Your environment may be different but I would guess you are trying to do to many different things with one machine.

Today I am replacing zippers in some motorcycle jumpsuits I set up three machines for this project.

A flat bed for replacing the hook and loop fasteners that the manufacture installed through the shell and the lining.

Two post bed machines one with 69 nylon for basting the linings to the zippers.

The other for stitching the zippers through the shell with 138 nylon top and bottom.

Each machine is set up for the task at hand. I spend a few min. making sure the equipment is properly calibrated.

Proper needle selection, stitch length, stitch quality, thread and ergonomics. all factor in to setting up a good work environment.

I could get away with one machine but I would have to sew in batches that would create work flow inefficiency. ie. baste all the zippers to the linings then change thread and stitch the zippers to the shells.

The unfortunate reality is that smaller shops have a limited amount of resources and may have to settle with a less than optimal configuration.

I would recommend looking closely at your production needs and try to find trends in your workflow. This way you can identify tasks that my be best served with a task specific equipment choice.

Best of luck,

Al

PS.You can't lose with Cobra Steve and The leather Machine company.

Edited June 23, 2011 by albane

[flashfasbo]

Thanks for the viewpoints and advice so far. It is appreciated.

Yes, we felt as well the frequency of servicing we have needed on our SunStar was too high. Before buying, I kind of assumed that once an industrial was dialed-in, it should "just work". But we were always fiddling trying to figure out if we threaded it wrong, or had the bobbin spinning the wrong way, or a too small needle, or whatever. I don't really want to disparage SunStar since I agree it may be the mechanic(s) at our dealer aren't thorough enough, but it's hard to say.

As well as pondering what you've said above, we're expanding our search a bit to include some other brands -- the Pfaff and Duerkopp Adler post-bed machines. Looks like Pfaff at least, has a local dealer here in Vancouver. Not sure yet about DA (have sent an e-mail to their Canadian distributor, simards.com).

I have to admit, their new machines make me drool a little, but I fear the pricing will be similar to the Jukis for similar specs:

http://www.pfaff-ind...5%202596%20Plus

http://www.duerkopp-...868-190020.html

Edited June 23, 2011 by flashfasbo

[albane]

Flash,

Unfortunately the "just work" approach doesn't work.

An experienced opprator will be constantly monitoring the equipment making small adjustments to things like thread tension and uniform feeding of the textiles.

keeping the equipment in top working order becomes important because when the equipment stops so does the income.

Constant preventive maintenance should become an ongoing habit not a burden.

Respectfully,

Al