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Bronson

vinegaroon, what did I do wrong

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Hey all,

Firstly I'd like to thank everyone here for the great advice and tips. Using what I've learned here I've been able to fix the problems I was having. Of course now I've found other new and exciting problems :mad:

I put together another holster for my 1911 and used the vinegaroon on it. For the most part I'm very happy with the holster but I noticed that the first time I put the gun into the finished holster the black on the back side faded where the leather flexed.

Maybe I need to color the leather before forming it. I didn't want to do that this time as I was using a different pattern and didn't want to spend the time coloring it if I couldnt' get the gun into the holster :rolleyes2: It was pretty dang tight. Getting it in there was like wrestling a funnel cake from a fat kid at the fair :lol:

After coloring, rinsing, and air drying overnight I put a thin coat of neatsfoot on the outside rubbed it in and let it sit all day. Then it got two coats of brushed on Resolene. During all of this the color never faded. Well that's not exactly true. After it dried overnight the color had faded to more of a dark grey than black and I had to reapply the mix to get it black again ....has anybody else had that happen?

Anyway, here's a couple of links to pics. Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29310638@N07/3366103367/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29310638@N07/...in/photostream/

Thanks everyone.

Bronson

p.s. Here're some links to the front of the holster. Like I said overall I'm happy with it but I'd like to figure out how to keep the color consistent.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29310638@N07/...in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29310638@N07/...in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29310638@N07/...in/photostream/

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Hi Bronson,

With the two coats of resolene already applied I don't know if you can really do much about it. Whenever I use vinegaroon, I apply a generous amount of conditioner- about the same amount of conditioner as the fat kid at the fair has funnel cake icing on his face. Then, it has to be REALLY rubbed in well. The ferric acetate forces some of the tallows (waxes and fats) from the center of the leather. You may have noticed this as a water resistant dull to glossy "finish" on the leather immediately after the treatment. Usually, I hand rub in a couple of "glops" until the leather stops absorbing it. Yes, it can be overdone, but I've kinda learned how much to apply through experimentation. I'm using "Aussie" conditioner. Neatsfoot, being a liquid probably absorbs faster, so be carefull that you don't over do it. It's the reintroduction of the oils and tallows to the leather that deepens the black color. Also, when using Vin., I don't always apply a topcoat/sealer, relying on the conditioner instead.

Now, about the resolene....Resolene is an acrylic finish. That basically means you've put a plastic coat on the holster. If you didn't apply it to the interior, you might be able to condition that way. There's a couple of threads about resolene, and why folks do and don't like it. One of the saddle makers said he doesn't like it because it can't be removed to condition the leather underneath.[paraphrased] I like it on holster exteriors well enough, but I'm gonna be trying some leatherbalm as an alternative. I just don't like the plastic feel of the resolene finish. Others, like K-man, use it pretty extensively and he turns out some fantastic holsters. To each their own.

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I liek the Resolene when airbrushed. I did, however, over do it on a piece recently and was able to strip the resolene off with pure acetone.

My vinagaroon has been sitting for quite a whiel now, and it works really fast, but I've never achieved a shade of black that could pass as dye.

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I'm still experimenting with vinegaroon, however, I haven't had that problem.

I soak the holster in the vinegaroon for 2-3 hours then in the baking soda mix 2-3 hours then fresh water. Then I let it dry for 24 hours and wet mold it. Considering how much of a PITA it is to dye them black with regular dye, this way is allot faster and easier. I'm hoping once my vinegaroon mix gets stronger It won't take hours to do its thing.

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OK, I doubt this will be any help, but I think I've had similar experiences. . .

I'm not sure I can tell from the pictures what you're talking about. . . but I think I can tell from your description exactly what you're talking about.

I put together another holster for my 1911 and used the vinegaroon on it. For the most part I'm very happy with the holster but I noticed that the first time I put the gun into the finished holster the black on the back side faded where the leather flexed.

That is precisely what I've noticed happens a lot of times with my vinegaroon: the black fades to gray when the leather is flexed. It turns a nice dark black when a finish is applied, but quickly turns gray when the leather is bent. In an attempt to test the durability of the finish, I've scratched it when it's dry, and it turns gray then as well (unlike a dyed and finished piece). I would really like to know why my vinegarooned leather seems to accept finishes differently than my un-vinegarooned leather. . .

During all of this the color never faded. Well that's not exactly true. After it dried overnight the color had faded to more of a dark grey than black and I had to reapply the mix to get it black again ....has anybody else had that happen?

Yes, that sounds like what has happened to me. In fact, I seem to recall that a second coat of the vinegaroon does not even necessarily fix this (in my case); oiling should help here, but, as TwinOaks mentioned, be careful not to over-oil. Perhaps the vinegaroon is not strong enough -- though I doubt this -- or perhaps it simply does not work as nicely on some leathers as it does on others. Or perhaps it's something else. . .?

In the end, though, I would have to say I still like the vinegaroon better than dye. :thumbsup:

L'Bum

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I soak the holster in the vinegaroon for 2-3 hours then in the baking soda mix 2-3 hours then fresh water.

Maybe I need to dip it instead of putting it on with a dauber.

I learned my lesson on the overuse of neatsfoot the first time I used it. Now it goes on a little at a time :P

Thanks for the help.

Bronson

Edited by Bronson

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Vinegaroon turns leather black because the tannic acid in the leather acts as a mordant for ferric acetate in the vinegaroon. If your "brew" of vinegaroon doesn't have enough ferric acetate or if the leather doesn't have enough tannin or if there is not sufficient chemical reaction, the blackness won't be there especailly inside.

It isn't like paint or normal dye... it is a chemical reaction that is causing the change which is why it acts within the leather and not on top of the leather.

:red_bandana::red_bandana::red_bandana:

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I'm not a holster maker at all, I make motorcycle seats. I've done this vinegaroon several times with great success and never had the seat change color when the leather flexes.

When I vinegaroon a seat, it only takes about 10 minutes to apply the vinegaroon. I wipe my mixture on the leather with an old shop rag. It starts turning black instantly. I wait about 7 - 10 minutes for the vinegaroon to soak into the leather completely. Then I rinse the leather with clean water to wash away any residual vinegaroon. Once it has been rinsed, I soak the leather in a heavy mixture of baking soda and water to neutralize the vinegar. This is an important step because the vinegaroon will continue to wage war against the leather causing it to weaken, get brittle and eventually, fail if the vinegar isn't neutralized. Once I have soaked the leather in the Baking Soda solution for about an hour, I pull it out, blot it dry and set aside to dry overnight.

Overnight, the leather will dry to a blue-gray hazey color. It won't look very appealing yet, but you're almost there. I always take the leather and roll it around to examine the piece for missed areas or other things I may have overlooked. Once I'm satisfied with the outcome, I grab the Neatsfoot Oil and start applying in small Wax-on, Wax-off motions and really work the oil down into the leather. I apply a coat, then wait a bit for it to soak in, then apply another coat. I end up applying several light coats of Neatsfoot Oil to the leather and the Indigo Black color starts to appear. Once I'm happy with the color, I apply a coat or two of Satin Sheen to add a little luster and send it down the road.

Hope this helps....

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As the last two posters noted:

1. If it is going to work, it usually does it pretty quickly

2. If you aren't getting it dark enough then either

a. Your vinegaroon doesn't have enough iron in it-could be because it is too new (iron has not dissolved enough yet) or too old (iron has oxidized and dropped out of solution-lots of rust present). Usually there is not a problem with not putting enough iron in when making up the solution, a good sized chunk of steel wool in a quart or so of good strong vinegar (weak vinegar could potentially be a problem too I guess), let sit for a day or two will produce really strong black

b. not enough tannins in the leather. Some peices just don't seem to work well, this is possibly due to differences in the tanning procedure or just the characteristics of a particular peice of leather. Using a small scrap to test might not be a bad idea. Just dip it in and it should go black within a couple of minutes.

Achieving real consistancy with vinagaroon can be tricky, that's why they invented synthetic dyes.

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Another thing to remedy a lack of tannins in the leather- give it a wash with strong black tea (unsweatened!!! and no Lemons). Tea is very high in tannins and will help to add some to the leather.

Instead of a chunk of steel, I prefer to use steel wool- pick a guage, it doesn't matter. What does matter is burning it before use. The steel wool has a light oily coating mixed in with it to keep it from rusting in the bag. Burning it clears that problem. With my batch, after the vinegar had eaten all the steel wool, I added a short handful of old nails. Since then, the vinegar has been "used up", and there is no more reaction with the metal. Also, there is no visible reaction to baking soda, or a baking soda solution. I take this to mean that most of the acid has been reduced in it's reaction with the steel, and I typically just rinse with tap water. That's also the point that I wet mold it (for holsters) since it's already saturated. Once it's partially dried, I pop it in the oven to heat up, checking it frequently so I don't scorch the leather. NOTE: Don't place an unwrapped gun in the holster while it's hot. The hot leather is "breathing steam" and cold gun steel will cause instant condensation....on the gun.

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