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landis #3? or singer 7-34


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#1 broncobuster

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 01:08 PM

anyone have comments, likes, dislikes of these machines and estimated value. and the work they can do. thanks Bronc/Bonnie

#2 Art

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 09:44 PM

Hi Bonnie,

The Landis No.3, not quite a Campbell, actually it is a copy (developed after the original Campbell patent had run) of the Campbell and a quite good needle and awl machine, has about an 11" throat. Like I said not quite a Campbell but very good indeed. They go in the $2000 range depending on condition. Like the Campbell, they are not for the novice sewing machine owner. Campbell is still with us and parts and advice are available.

The 7 Class Singer was the staple of canvas tent and parachute manufacturers during WWII. A great threaded needle machine of the old school, probably the strongest sewing machine ever built. I have seen them sell recently for around $1800.

Art

anyone have comments, likes, dislikes of these machines and estimated value. and the work they can do. thanks Bronc/Bonnie


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#3 broncobuster

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 04:35 PM

thanks Art. someone just stopped in my shop and offered both machines to me. at a reasonable price. havent seen those machines in operation so just wanted to get an idea on how they were. I need another machine like i need a hole in my head but love old sewing machines. looks like a sweat shop now in my shop. but hhmm I could use them lol. thanks again Bonnie

#4 kseidel

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 07:53 AM

Hi Bonnie,

The Landis No.3, not quite a Campbell, actually it is a copy (developed after the original Campbell patent had run) of the Campbell and a quite good needle and awl machine, has about an 11" throat. Like I said not quite a Campbell but very good indeed. They go in the $2000 range depending on condition. Like the Campbell, they are not for the novice sewing machine owner. Campbell is still with us and parts and advice are available.

The 7 Class Singer was the staple of canvas tent and parachute manufacturers during WWII. A great threaded needle machine of the old school, probably the strongest sewing machine ever built. I have seen them sell recently for around $1800.

Art


Art, I'm not sure where you got your info regarding the landis being a campbell copy. Actually, the Landis was being mfg long before the Campbell. The Campbell is a clone of the Randall and they are almost identical machines and most parts are interchangeable. The landis #1 was the earliest of the line and was a treadle powered machine introduced in the early 1800's. There were four machines in the landis line up. The Landis #4 was introduced to stitch beads on car and truck tires for the model A;s and T's with spoked wheels. I have only seen one #4 still in operating condition, most being run to death in the early automobile rush. The #3 is the most popular of the Landis saddle stitchers. Many are in use today and they run from $2000 -$3500 depending on condition. Parts are scarce; a few of the most common to wear out are now being mfg. There were some nice Landis #3's at Kings in Sheridan for sale last week.

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#5 Art

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 09:53 AM

Hi Keith,

The Campbell was in use in the late 1800s, whereas the Landis #3 was brought out around 1911. The #3 was different than the Campbell in that it had a 11-11 1/2 inch throat to the Campbell's 9, also Landis made some modifications of the Campbell jump foot system which were a definite plus. I also believe the Randall is a clone of the Campbell (datewise anyway). Most of this history I gleaned from an article by Harry Shonteff who is kind of an authority on these things. I have also done some inadvertent research (in other words I got sidetracked while researching something else) into production numbers and have found the Campbell was in production quite early, the others showing-up only after the 16 year patent hiatus. I have had a #3 for a while and didn't have any problems understanding it as I had a Campbell already. Like I said, I liked their jump foot system better.

To date, I don't think there is a definitive book or work on these machines. I can't imagine there ever will be as at best it would probably sell about 1000 copies, probably far less; this is unfortunate as these old needle and awl machines were the finest leather sewing machines ever produced and there should be something out there chronicling them.

Art

P.S. There is a difference between clone and copy (in my mind of course). The Randall is a clone of the Campbell, it is for the most part identical. A copy has technology copied or incorporated prior technology in a newer product, even though upgrades and improvements (even new patents) may be made also. If we were not allowed to copy patents that have run, technology would not advance at the rate it has.


Art, I'm not sure where you got your info regarding the landis being a campbell copy. Actually, the Landis was being mfg long before the Campbell. The Campbell is a clone of the Randall and they are almost identical machines and most parts are interchangeable. The landis #1 was the earliest of the line and was a treadle powered machine introduced in the early 1800's. There were four machines in the landis line up. The Landis #4 was introduced to stitch beads on car and truck tires for the model A;s and T's with spoked wheels. I have only seen one #4 still in operating condition, most being run to death in the early automobile rush. The #3 is the most popular of the Landis saddle stitchers. Many are in use today and they run from $2000 -$3500 depending on condition. Parts are scarce; a few of the most common to wear out are now being mfg. There were some nice Landis #3's at Kings in Sheridan for sale last week.

Keith


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#6 greg gomersall

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 01:52 PM

My understanding of the Campbell?Randall story is that when they deveolped the machine in a partnership scenario the person or people of Randall snuk out and patented it in his name instead of in the partnership trying to screw the Campbell partner. The Campbell partner not to be outdone went ahesd with production anyhow but did not sell the machines. They were lease only thereby getting around patent infringements. This is why you could only lease a Campbell, you could never own one until recently. The 3 was introduced later by Landis to compete with the Randall and Campbell, 1911 sounds about right. The serial #'s on the 3 start at 10,000. Connie Nagel could probably shed more light on this issue. Greg

#7 Art

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 03:01 PM

Hi Greg,

I know the Campbell was available (lease) around 1884. I have not been able to find Randall mentioned 'till after that date. You could at that time make quite a bit more money leasing/renting equipment in the shoe/leather trade as was proven by USMC who was the 'king' of that business model, they made the real money bundling the lease/maintenance and you also had to buy all your supplies (thread needles etc) from them. This was the dominant business model for the majority of the late 19th and early/mid 20th centuries. They were just using the successful model that other biggies like IBM and NCR made a fortune with. When the courts rejected this in the 1970s, it all stopped, but it was a helluva ride while it lasted, way past 8 seconds I'd say.

Art

My understanding of the Campbell?Randall story is that when they deveolped the machine in a partnership scenario the person or people of Randall snuk out and patented it in his name instead of in the partnership trying to screw the Campbell partner. The Campbell partner not to be outdone went ahesd with production anyhow but did not sell the machines. They were lease only thereby getting around patent infringements. This is why you could only lease a Campbell, you could never own one until recently. The 3 was introduced later by Landis to compete with the Randall and Campbell, 1911 sounds about right. The serial #'s on the 3 start at 10,000. Connie Nagel could probably shed more light on this issue. Greg


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#8 CampbellRandall

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 10:13 AM

My understanding of the Campbell?Randall story is that when they deveolped the machine in a partnership scenario the person or people of Randall snuk out and patented it in his name instead of in the partnership trying to screw the Campbell partner. The Campbell partner not to be outdone went ahesd with production anyhow but did not sell the machines. They were lease only thereby getting around patent infringements. This is why you could only lease a Campbell, you could never own one until recently. The 3 was introduced later by Landis to compete with the Randall and Campbell, 1911 sounds about right. The serial #'s on the 3 start at 10,000. Connie Nagel could probably shed more light on this issue. Greg



We'll I'm not old enough to remember when they started making these machines, but the patent dates indicate who came first. I have researched the US patents on these boys and have found the following...
  • The Campbell Lockstitch
    • First patent = Sept 7, 1880 #231954, by Duncan H. Campbell
    • Improved design first seen around 1882
    • Pattens for diffrent mechanisms continued through the 1910's
    • This machine was leased rather than sold, until recent decades
  • The Randall Lockstitch
    • I have only found one related patent for Sept 3, 1901 #681956 by Henry A. Dodge
    • I believe the Randall type came out between 1900 and 1910. They slightly changed the mechanisms that were patented by Campbell. Patents apply to designs, concepts, etc - not the whole machine. They took the design and changed it enough to get passed the patent laws. Today we can exchange those mechanisms for current model Campbell parts, so a Randall can be converted to be 99% Campbell.
    • The Randall advertised their machine with "No Royalities", so you could buy rather than lease. Campbell maintained the lions share of the market for decades.
  • Landis 3
    • The first patent found Nov. 23 1910 #976,746 by Christian Pedersen
    • They machine was described as a "Campbell Type". They changed most of the design but the way the machine operates is the same. A few parts are directly interchangeable but most are not - unlike the Randall which is almost a direct copy.
The Campbell was the first successful needle and awl design, and ironically its one of only two (the Unionlock being the other) which are still being made today.

Here's an article for those intrested in a little history...
http://www.campbell-...Point-Part2.pdf

Regards - Dan

#9 kseidel

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Posted 30 May 2008 - 01:05 PM

Hello Dan, and welcome aboard! Thanks for the history lesson. As they say, the history is written by the victor, and you are the current victor in the machine industry! Keith Seidel
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