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8 Plait Braid Over a Core


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#1 paris3200

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 10:06 AM

I braided for the first time over a core this morning. I did a 8 plait braid with 1/8 inch lace over a 8mm diameter rope. I tried to pay special attention to ensure the braid was tight enough. However I noticed that if you bent the finished braid you could see the core in a couple of places. Was my rope to large or do I simply need more practice?

Thanks,

Jason

Edited by paris32000, 17 January 2008 - 10:07 AM.


#2 The Major

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 02:50 PM

Two things.

1. Did you soap or dress your thongs before plaiting?

2. When you tightened your plaits as you were going along did you just pull one or two tight or did you pull all your thongs at once?
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#3 Alan Bell

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 04:31 PM

You have to braid kinda "over tight" when going over a core that will be bent or curved later on. Here's why; if you braid a length say 7 inches long and were to mark a line along the length on one side and then on the opposite side and place marks on it every inch. Then you come in to the 2 in and the 6 in mark so your dealing with an inch inside of each end or 5 inches point to point. Then you bend it say 30 deg. the inside length of 5 inches will in effect be shorter and the outside length of 5 inches will become longer to account for the curve point to point. This is also why we can bevel rawhide on the grain side because rawhide is inherently stronger than leather but the strength of both is in the grain side. Beveling reduces the amount of surface but with rawhide being a bit stronger this makes up for the reduced strength. You bevel leather on the flesh side. You are in effect stretching the outside of the curve and contracting the inside of the curve. On a bosal the inside contracting makes a flat spot that some (myself included) like to try and flatten a bit more. Reason being; it places more surface (of the bosal noseband) in contact with the bridge of the horses nose, thus making it a little more comfortable for the horse. While you want to braid everything you braid just about as evenly tight as you can get it on some items like a quirt braided over a core this is not a factor. Braiding tightly and evenly is however a sign of good work and also increases the life of the end product so it is a practical thing to do. Although I have never braided a whip in my mind the whip braiding will tighten itself with usage and braiding it super tight in the beginning may make it less flexible to begin with. Whip braiders, is this correct?
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Edited by Alan Bell, 17 January 2008 - 04:31 PM.


#4 paris3200

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:30 PM

1. Did you soap or dress your thongs before plaiting?


Yes, I used soap.

2. When you tightened your plaits as you were going along did you just pull one or two tight or did you pull all your thongs at once?

I tightened the thongs one at a time as I went along.


I understand the concept of the curve inside and outside being different lengths. So is the solution just to make the braid tighter?

Thanks for the replies,

Jason

#5 The Major

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:39 PM

Yes, I used soap.
I tightened the thongs one at a time as I went along.
I understand the concept of the curve inside and outside being different lengths. So is the solution just to make the braid tighter?

Thanks for the replies,

Jason


Ok, soap is good. But it seems to me your problem is with the tightening. When you tighten the thongs you need to pull them all together, otherwise the one you tighten will slip loose. This and properly soaped thongs are key to getting a nice tight plait. (Of course beveling helps a little too). Keep it tight
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#6 Opagon

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 05:42 PM

I have encountered this problem many a time, I would suggest using a smaller core. When I place my strings around my core I want them to overlap slightly. Sometimes for a small 8 plait braid I will use a very tiny string for a core to keep it from squaring on me while rolling.

Hope that helps,
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#7 rawhide1

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Posted 17 January 2008 - 11:51 PM

I would have to agree with all the advice given because it will all make a difference in the finished product. But I would put my money your core being to big for the size of strings your using. I just aint sure of the circumference of a core with 8mm dia. What is the circumference in inches. Mike

#8 Alan Bell

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 08:22 AM

Ahh haa. This is where you get into the mathematics of braiding and where all the different patterns possible start to shape in the mind. the circumference of an 8mm rope is c = pi X r or c = 3.14159 x 8mm or c = 25.13272mm. I don't understand all of it but the knots are algorithms and if someone so desired they could create a computer program that would "invent" different knots! Oh, I guess GOD already did that!

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#9 paris3200

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 09:44 AM

25.132772mm comes out to 0.989478 inches. Like I said earlier I used 8 plait, 1/8 thongs so 8*1/8 = 1 inch. I guess that .010522 inches of play wasn't enough. I'm going to try it again on a smaller core today. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Jason

#10 rawhide1

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 11:56 AM

Jason
Before the big crash there was a thread on here about covering a core. If I remember right they were saying you need to take your circumference and add half of the circumference to your final measurement. So if ya had a inch you would figure a inch and a half to cover. So instead of 8- 1/8" strings you would use 12 -1/8 inch strings. I think thats how it went but not for sure as I havent tried it myself. Maybe someone can repost that thread or give more insight. Mike

#11 paris3200

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 09:56 PM

Today I tried again doing two things differently. First off I got some Packer Leather kangaroo lace from David Morgan instead of the lace I got from Tandy. The difference is like night and day. The Packer kangaroo lace is much softer, stronger and looks better than the lace I was previously using.

I also changed from a 8mm core to a 4mm core. For those interested in the math c = 3.14 * 4mm. C = 12.56 mm or .4944 inches. The results improved greatly. No longer could the core be seen no matter which way I bent the end product. I guess I'll stick with the 4mm core for now.

I've always enjoyed math so I'm intrigued as to why mathematically you have to use a much smaller core than the sum of the lace width in order to get good results.

Jason

#12 Alan Bell

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Posted 18 January 2008 - 10:03 PM

I think this is where things get a little interesting. The Dorrances did all their measurements in 32'nds. In an earlier post someone mentioned how when you lace is running at 45 deg. angles it actually takes a little more than 8 x 1/8" strings to cover 1" in circumference. So the Dorrances would make their 1/8" strings actually be 5 or 6/32". The other thing is to adjust for stretch during the braiding. When you braid tight you can actually stretch a 6/32" strand so much that it becomes a 1/8' strand! Sharon Paulin has a string maker set up with a micrometer type dial to set the width for strings and for beveling edges. Once you bevel one edge and try to reverse the lace and bevel the other edge it is hard to keep the rawhide in the right spot to take off an equal amount beause the prior beveled edge is now the brace that sets the width but it has been weakened a little so she can dial it in a 32 of an inch to compensate. However you do it you will have to find a way to keep your strings consistent, your knots consistent and tight and to over compensate. Also try and find a way to make each strand slightly wider than the "standard" or use more strings or a smaller core!

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#13 bernie

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 08:44 AM

The easiest way to figure out how wide your strands should be to cover a core is to multiply the diameter of the core by 4.5 and divide that by the number of strands to get your strand width. You will find that your strands will have to cover approximately 1&1/2 times the circumferance of your core to get a good cover.
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#14 rawhide1

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 09:38 AM

Bernie

#15 rawhide1

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 09:47 AM

Bernie
I'll try this agian!! Welcome to the site it's nice to have ya!!
I want to thank thank ya for the formula. I was just wondering why do ya use the dia. opposed to the circumferance and what does the 4.5 repersent. I'm sure these are silly questions but my math skills are behind my computer skills! I visted your web site and those are dang nice looking whips.
Thanks Mike





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