Lets talk about sales (or lack thereof)

[Spyros]

I think being unable to sell can be the most disappointing thing and can easily put someone off leatherworking for good.   Most of us start as a hobby (and many stay hobbyists forever), but even as a hobby it can get expensive very quickly.  Most of us try to at least recover our costs by making a few sales here and there, and maybe eventually explore the possibility of turning it into a main gig.  But being unable to make those sales can get very disappointing and even prohibitive.

It would be great to hear from the more experienced of you what strategies and decisions helped you overcome this hurdle, especially at the start.  How did you make your first sales and how did it progress from there, what platforms or markets you joined, how did you structure a successful pricing, and anything else you want to share.

For me it's still very early stages and it's been mainly word of mouth so far.  I started by simply giving away stuff for free to good friends and family as gifts, other people in their circles saw that stuff, and they found me and enquired.  And to be honest I mostly say no because I want to make what I want to make, not necessarily what they want, because at the end of the day I am still very much a hobbyist.  I want to enjoy what I do, which means if I see something interesting on the internet I want to make THAT thing, not the thing that sells best.  And if nobody wants it, I just put it on my wife's facebook (because I don't have one) and eventually it sells, although it might take months sometimes.  But I still have my morning job so I can afford to go without sales for however long it takes without having to give heavy discounts.

But that's just me.  What about you?  

Edited April 2, 2022 by Spyros

[Handstitched]

@Spyros

I feel your pain & disappointment . It has taken some years, but I have made myself known  through ' word of mouth' and attending regular markets( and in the same location at the venue), flyers , cards, and making something fancy  to display on my tables, that does get a lot of attention, because thats what they see when they first enter my stall. I get a lot of " oo's & a'hs " and a lot of praise, and further interest that potentially turn into orders.    I have tried newspaper advertising , local advertising   etc. without much luck,  but word of mouth  & markets works best, for me  at least. However, this f*&^%ing COVID really messed things up for all of us.  Thank God for COVID relief for small businesses, otherwise, I'd be out of business. 

In one way, the lockdowns we had, helped to concentrate the mind , creatively  . 

The other thing I'm glad I did,  was to diversify, I  repair horse rugs, and do some canvas repairs. So if the leather side of things were slow, or markets are canned ,  the rugs etc.  do help, not entirely, but enough to pay a few bills.  But even the rugs have slowed quite a bit lately . So  I find myself taking on whatever my hands...and my machines can do these days. 

And, once upon a time , I had a paper round ( a cashie) that helped too for a time. 

2 hours ago, Spyros said:

How did you make your first sales

My first sales....well, my very first market?  , I made just under $12.00 All I had was a few key rings, a few book marks, and one or two belts on a small table . I knew nothing about what I was doing. That  was 17 years ago . I have learnt so much in that time. 

As making for making  good $$$ , stick with your morning job. It does help to do more than just leather.   For those doing leather as a hobby, keep it up for the pure joy of creating something beautiful with their own hands, but don't expect  to make a fortune .  

For me , there were good sales, making good money, it got to a peak, and now its dropped off .  I can't  blame all of it on COVID . 

Would be nice to hear from some saddle makers for their point of view ?? 

Hope this sorta helps,

HS

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Handstitched

[chrisash]

In Europe at least we live in a throw away society where things are valued in days rather than years (not everything but many items)

Leatherworker tend to slag off the far east items as crap, but in fact they never look at how well they are made, (mass production and good quality control in general) but designed for they throw away society

Hobby people feel that because they spend time making one offs they should sell at a better price, but does the main buyers know the difference and unfortunately many examples shown on forums are quite low quality. 

Those who are successful end to be the ones who spend money on marketing their goods, which is not the same a page on Etsy or Facebook

Many skilled workers can make items as good as Hermes or LV or any big brand, but the potential customers are sold on the brand which costs a lot of time and effort yet alone money to build

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by chrisash

[Klara]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:23 AM, Spyros said:

but even as a hobby it can get expensive very quickly.  Most of us try to at least recover our costs by making a few sales...

... I want to make what I want to make, not necessarily what they want,  ...

But I still have my morning job so I can afford to go without sales for however long it takes without having to give heavy discounts.

...

Firstly, a great many hobbies can get very expensive without any hope of recovering your money. Model vehicles, anybody? Or horse or dog sports?

Secondly, making what the customer wants to buy vs. what one wants to make is one of the defining differences between pro and hobbyist, in my opinion. Actually, I have often thought, standing in my market stall, that maybe I should work to order, make bespoke items. Because when you make each item individually (handknitting there is no other way), you can just as well make exactly what the customer wants. On the other hand, on the few occasions where I did work to orders, I was rather stressed. Because sizing needs to be exact and the item overall perfect... So that's not really what I want to do either.

Thirdly, I dare say that another source of money is essential for sleeping soundly.

Btw., I've decided to mostly stop working for others in wool, and to not even start in leather. I'm still waiting for people to even notice my dog's fabulous collars. Or my belt buckles with borzoi (yep, a year ago I did hope for people wanting to buy some. Not going to happen.)

 

 

 

[Spyros]

35 minutes ago, Klara said:

Firstly, a great many hobbies can get very expensive without any hope of recovering your money. Model vehicles, anybody? Or horse or dog sports?

I guess your point is that hobbies come with a cost and I should just accept it?  No, I don't have to. 

It's nothing for me to make something that people would pay money for.  I'm just looking for the easiest way to align what I want to make with what people want to buy, without them annoying me too much.

When people ask me "You know what I'd really like you to make for me?" the first response that usually comes to my mind is "I don't actually give a **** what you want me to make"  

I usually manage to keep it inside though.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Spyros

[Frodo]

I have a booth most most  Saturday at different Festivals/flea markets etc.  I have noticed  recently that because the price of everything has skyrocketed , The people are not buying. They are looking  I refer to the lookers as ''Tire kickers"   

[Handstitched]

2 hours ago, Spyros said:

"I don't actually give a **** what you want me to make" 

I have the exact same feeling when these arm chair experts come into my stall and say, 

"Aaaw maaaate, ....you should make this this and this....you'll make a fortune !!!!! " 

Me thinking: Yeh.. ..whatever.....nod & smile......now f***k off !!!! . I'll make what I want to make  not what you tell me to make " . 

One of these days my "filter" may well  be turned off . 

Hang in there Spyros   

HS 

[Handstitched]

15 minutes ago, Frodo said:

''Tire kickers"   

I have ' those' that  I call the ' 3 P Brigade' , 'Pick it up, Put it down and P *ss off .

And then theres the ' TFB's'  the  ' Touchy Feely Brigade . They like to touch &  open everything, and say..."O'h I love the smell of leather"  and not closing and putting it back where they found it . I'm sure they're the same people that dip bits of bread in olive oil and tapenades  at markets .

And the ' Be Backs' .  " O'h that looks nice...."   Until they see the price,... they then say " I'll be back" 

So yeh , we can tell who will buy and who won't.

HS 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Handstitched

[fredk]

You have to balance what you want to make with what customers' want.  I make what I want but I'm also open to making something  a customer wants, as long as its in my experience to do it. [One item which comes to mind was a car owner asked for covers for part of his car front seats. An area of the car seats were badly worn. I made the covers and he just glued them in place.] I'm also building up a stock of small items that I hope will make sales

I once knew a prominent Ulster artist. She painted 'pet portraits' and the occasional human portrait. She once told me that she really hated doing these paintings. So why do you do them? I asked  Her reply, 'because they pay the bills and allow me to paint what I really want to do'

If you can, try going on journeys to nowhere on buses and trains and observe people. Go to a town centre and sit with a sandwich and coffee and observe people passing by.  I've been using buses and trains, going to town cafes.  I have a small sketch book full of ideas of things I've seen, designs of bags, purses and even wallets and so much more that other passengers or people walking by have.  Go into fashion stores and look at the 'leather' items~* on sale. These are the things that some people will buy

* on this, No.3 son drew my attention to a certain style of back-pack bag in a top fashion store. The bag was available in many colours and there was a sales offer on them. £125 instead of £160. The bag was an exact copy of the school bag we in Ulster used to use 50 years ago. I managed to find a price for those bags, about £2.50 in 1971-ish, or about £80 today, so not terribly expensive in comparrison;   https://www.scaramangashop.co.uk/Fashion-and-Furniture-Blog/wp-content/uploads/bag4.jpg

When I was involved in historical presentation groups a lot of my sales were to the group members and some to the public, about 70 / 30 %   Since I left that and the groups have died away I'm doing mostly things just for family, and giving the odd item to friends. But I'm also building up a small stock of a range of items for when we are allowed to go out and do outside markets et cetera again. I have two 'sales agents' in two countries who both want stock, but at the moment and since March 2020 they can't get to the places they wanted to take my items

A few years ago I thought I had nice earner all lined up. A certain shop keeper wanted me to make a range of certain things. He wanted quality as his only other source was from overseas and the quality was abysmal. During negotiations the shop keep disappeared and the shop locked up. It took almost 18 months till I found out where he was - in prison for fraud! His brother took over the shop and doesn't want my items, he's happy selling tat

[chuck123wapati]

for me it was just part of the knife sale, you buy my knife you get my sheath too. Now i make more leather goods than knives, quicker and faster and much easier. most of my sales are for what the customer wants 

 i've found not all people like what i like or will buy what i think they should like but they always buy what they like whether i like it or not. LOL now say that real fast

[kgg]

1 hour ago, fredk said:

The bag was an exact copy of the school bag we in Ulster used to use 50 years ago.

That bag but in brown was the same one the mother would buy every September from the local cobber for me to carry my books to grade school. I would get one year of enjoyment out of them as I used it as a sled for sliding down the snow hill behind the school during recess and lunch, books were optional.

kgg

[chrisash]

How many of the population would go to work each and every day if they just did what they wanted to do

I only make what I want to make appears to be a luxury most cannot afford

If you want to sell something , then make what the customer wants at the price they want to pay, or talk them into a reason to buy

[Klara]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

the mother would buy every September from the local cobber for me to carry my books

Seriously?  Your cobbler would make bags that would only last one year? That's no advertising for leather craftsmen. My shop-bought school bag lasted all 13 years of school and then I mounted brackets on it to hang it on the bicycle's luggage rack. 4 more years of language college. Then I was really sick and tired of it and threw it away before moving.

[chuck123wapati]

18 minutes ago, Klara said:

Seriously?  Your cobbler would make bags that would only last one year? That's no advertising for leather craftsmen. My shop-bought school bag lasted all 13 years of school and then I mounted brackets on it to hang it on the bicycle's luggage rack. 4 more years of language college. Then I was really sick and tired of it and threw it away before moving.

did you use it as a sled every winter as he did? lol

[fredk]

28 minutes ago, Klara said:

Seriously?  Your cobbler would make bags that would only last one year? 

No, its because we abused the bags. Every year my mother used to buy me a new satchel and new shoes for the new school year, even if I didn't need the new satchel. If the old school satchel was still good it went back to the shop [a main shoe shop] and it was sold on to people who could not afford a new one

[Charley1]

IIn order to sell, you have to look at your potential market. What it wants, what it needs, and so on. Price is always a factor as well. Basic and less expensive usually., in my experience, sells better than artsy and more expensive. Remember, Sam Walton became a multimillionaire (big money back then!) by selling stuff for 5 cents cheaper than the competition down the street.

My sales are basically simple holsters, cartridge belt slides, and similar items. I net about $1200-$1500 per month. Not great, but decent for an old retired guy.  

[kgg]

6 hours ago, Klara said:

Seriously?  Your cobbler would make bags that would only last one year?

Yes, snow sliding is terrible on leather. It had nothing to do with the cobbler's ability or the quality of leather but the abuse of daily sliding for months on end. Where I grew up (Newfoundland) you got snow in October and it lasted usually til April or May with the occasional snow storm mid June. Yes, June.

kgg

[Spyros]

50 minutes ago, kgg said:

Yes, snow sliding is terrible on leather. It had nothing to do with the cobbler's ability or the quality of leather but the abuse of daily sliding for months on end. Where I grew up (Newfoundland) you got snow in October and it lasted usually til April or May with the occasional snow storm mid June. Yes, June.

kgg

My previous boss was from Northern Sweden.  At some point he announced he was going back home to visit his family for the summer holidays, and when  he came back and we all asked him how was his summer.  He said: "Not great". 

"Why?  What happened?"

"It fell on a Monday"  

[DJole]

1 hour ago, kgg said:

Yes, snow sliding is terrible on leather. It had nothing to do with the cobbler's ability or the quality of leather but the abuse of daily sliding for months on end. Where I grew up (Newfoundland) you got snow in October and it lasted usually til April or May with the occasional snow storm mid June. Yes, June.

kgg

You're a Newfoundlander? I spent 3 fun-filled years in St. John's going to Memorial. Are you a townie or from out 'round da bay?

[Hags]

I like making holsters, knife sheaths, and axe covers. But, mainly, I like holsters.  That's my thing. I run an add on Craigslist,  locally, with pics of my work. I get many calls, and a lot of I'll call you when I'm ready. I dont put them on my list. This a busy hobby for me. I'm retired, and just love leatherworking. I do not try to compete with master carvers or big time, big box holster makers. But, H.O. leather is not cheap. If people want a garage sale deal, go to a garage sale and find a brand new custom holster. It doesn't take a lot of sales to cover my costs, but this ain't cheap! I'm doing a show locally this summer. I'll probably pass out a lot of business cards. We'll see.

[kgg]

2 hours ago, DJole said:

You're a Newfoundlander? I spent 3 fun-filled years in St. John's going to Memorial. Are you a townie or from out 'round da bay?

Yes, I'm a pure breed townie. I do like your polite reference "round da bay".

kgg

[Spyros]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:04 PM, chrisash said:

In Europe at least we live in a throw away society where things are valued in days rather than years (not everything but many items)

Leatherworker tend to slag off the far east items as crap, but in fact they never look at how well they are made, (mass production and good quality control in general) but designed for they throw away society

Hobby people feel that because they spend time making one offs they should sell at a better price, but does the main buyers know the difference and unfortunately many examples shown on forums are quite low quality. 

Those who are successful end to be the ones who spend money on marketing their goods, which is not the same a page on Etsy or Facebook

Many skilled workers can make items as good as Hermes or LV or any big brand, but the potential customers are sold on the brand which costs a lot of time and effort yet alone money to build

 

In other words, leather goods is a niche market these days.  And it is a broadly misunderstood market with a bit of ignorance on the consumer's part (and somethimes our part as well).  And that's ok, every market has its hurdles. 

In fact if you think about it, and despite everything you mentioned, the leather goods market has less hurdles than others and it's almost a friendly market by comparison.  For example try to break into the car or phone market as a new manufacturer, it's practically impossible unless you're already some manufacturing giant.  Try to make and sell your own cigarettes, or medicinal drugs, or white goods.  Impossible.   And so on and so forth, in fact if you look at commonly used items in a household there's actually very few that you can still make and sell with reasonable investment and without feeling that you have to fight the whole universe.  Leather goods is one of them, so take the good with the bad and work with the advantages you do have, because there are a few: there's still a significant number of people out there who value quality over quantity, longevity over convenience, craft over mass production, and within reason they are willing to pay accordingly.   They are not everywhere, but they exist, even if some of them don't know it and you have to explain it to them.

[Handstitched]

23 hours ago, fredk said:

If you can, try going on journeys to nowhere on buses and trains and observe people.

I did that very thing at one of my (former) regular markets . I just sat and observed  what people were doing, what they were saying,  wearing , their behavior and son on.  You can learn a lot from just observing .   I could easily  get myself a degree in sociology .  

One of the 'highlights' from my observations, was an Asian looking woman pushing a shiny  vintage  looking  pram with big wheels,  while pressing buttons on her device and without even  looking at the screen and without looking  where she was going. I thought it was a baby in the pram...it was a fat furry Pekingese dog , dressed up in a  frilly  dress.  

Nuff said.

Meanwhile, back to selling leather goods..........

HS

 

[Samalan]

On 4/2/2022 at 2:23 AM, Spyros said:

I think being unable to sell can be the most disappointing thing and can easily put someone off leatherworking for good.   Most of us start as a hobby (and many stay hobbyists forever), but even as a hobby it can get expensive very quickly.  Most of us try to at least recover our costs by making a few sales here and there, and maybe eventually explore the possibility of turning it into a main gig.  But being unable to make those sales can get very disappointing and even prohibitive.

It would be great to hear from the more experienced of you what strategies and decisions helped you overcome this hurdle, especially at the start.  How did you make your first sales and how did it progress from there, what platforms or markets you joined, how did you structure a successful pricing, and anything else you want to share.

For me it's still very early stages and it's been mainly word of mouth so far.  I started by simply giving away stuff for free to good friends and family as gifts, other people in their circles saw that stuff, and they found me and enquired.  And to be honest I mostly say no because I want to make what I want to make, not necessarily what they want, because at the end of the day I am still very much a hobbyist.  I want to enjoy what I do, which means if I see something interesting on the internet I want to make THAT thing, not the thing that sells best.  And if nobody wants it, I just put it on my wife's facebook (because I don't have one) and eventually it sells, although it might take months sometimes.  But I still have my morning job so I can afford to go without sales for however long it takes without having to give heavy discounts.

But that's just me.  What about you?  

Business is a money eating monster that can bankrupt you, and eat you alive if you don't treat it right!

[Spyros]

15 hours ago, Samalan said:

Business is a money eating monster that can bankrupt you, and eat you alive if you don't treat it right!

That's why I get a little angry with all those motivational speakers and successful businessmen blindly advising everyone to quit their jobs and "follow their dreams / do what they love". 

Just because starting a business worked out for them, they don't realise what a meatgrinder it really is and how many people and families get destroyed every day in the process.

I know they probably mean well and just want to get people motivated but more often than not it's the wrong advice to give.  Irresponsible.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Spyros