Jump to content
MtlBiker

Sinabroks Chisels?

Recommended Posts

I'm about to order some Sinabroks European style chisels from Korea and would love to hear the opinion of the members here about my choices.  I have Ritza Tiger thread in .6, .8 and 1.0mm sizes but I generally prefer the look of the thicker thread.  I'm hoping that the chisels I buy could be used with all those sizes.

I'm thinking of the 4mm chisels, in 1-, 2-, 4- and 8-prong.  Is that overkill?  Do you think I could manage without one of those?  But Sinabroks has a 10% sale on until tomorrow, and even with the discount, this order would still come to $315 US, qualifying for free shipping to Canada (orders over $300 get free shipping).  So if I drop one of those chisels from the order I would have to pay shipping, which sort of balances it out, especially with the sale.  It's only money, I guess.  SIGH

I'm hoping that such high quality stitching chisels will elevate my hand-stitching.  And I think these would be easier to punch through thicker assemblies and also easier to pull out of the leather than my Craftools chisels which make a pretty darn big hole if I punch through many layers.

Thanks for any help.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A sharp awl gets my vote.  Sewing with an awl is faster than pre-punching, and its more flexible wrt a wide range of thicknesses, odd shapes, and making adjustments on the fly.  For fine stitching (~9 spi) I use the Rocky Mountain European style pricking irons to mark the holes instead of an overstitch wheel.  I rarely use a 2-prong iron and instead tilt an 8-prong iron, tapping lightly to mark curved sections. I guess this wouldn't work well for driving a chisel home to punch holes. 

IMG_5967.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow you went with pretty nice stuff. 

On 5/5/2022 at 10:33 AM, MtlBiker said:

I'm about to order some Sinabroks European style chisels from Korea and would love to hear the opinion of the members here about my choices.  I have Ritza Tiger thread in .6, .8 and 1.0mm sizes but I generally prefer the look of the thicker thread.  I'm hoping that the chisels I buy could be used with all those sizes.

I'm thinking of the 4mm chisels, in 1-, 2-, 4- and 8-prong.  Is that overkill?  Do you think I could manage without one of those?  But Sinabroks has a 10% sale on until tomorrow, and even with the discount, this order would still come to $315 US, qualifying for free shipping to Canada (orders over $300 get free shipping).  So if I drop one of those chisels from the order I would have to pay shipping, which sort of balances it out, especially with the sale.  It's only money, I guess.  SIGH

I'm hoping that such high quality stitching chisels will elevate my hand-stitching.  And I think these would be easier to punch through thicker assemblies and also easier to pull out of the leather than my Craftools chisels which make a pretty darn big hole if I punch through many layers.

Thanks for any help.

 

 Wow! those are nice irons. From what I read the 1-prong iron is not as useful as the rest. 2-prong is useful in curves.  I would go for a 10-prong instead of 8-prong to help in long stitch line. Have you look at Kevin Lee irons. I heard it is very good also and not too expensive. Lonsdale leather in Vancouver used to carry Sinabroks they have free shipping.  The diameter of the tooth is 2.2 mm vs KS Blade at 1.8 mm. Rocky Mountain has their own brand at 2 and 9 tooth combination for 99$ US dollar which I think is a great deal. They don't make 4.0mm,  3.85 is their lowest SPI. I have them and I am pretty happy with them. Their listed diameter is 1.7mm. There are so many out there now. Sinabroks, KS Blade, Doldokki,  Crimson Hides, Junlin, Kevin Lee, Beagle, Wuta. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have Sinabroks--  they're nice, but too expensive for my budget. 
I began with the Craftool chisels, like most of us -- what else was there, or what else did we know about? :-) Big holes, big spacing-- not much use for the majority of what I make.
I wonder what  you mean when you say you are punching through a "lot of layers"? The more layers you have, the more difficult it is to keep the lines on the back side of the piece from wandering if you try to do them all at once, no matter what irons you are using. It would be nice to get through 4-6 mm of leather with one whack of the tool, in a straight line on both sides of the leather, but there's a BIG learning curve to get there, and I don't think the irons are meant to do that.  

I have a set of 3 mm diamond irons from Japan Goods; the original set had 1, 2, 3 4 and 6 prongs. I later added a 10 prong.  I find that I use the 2 prong a lot for curved lines. The 10 is nice for making long straight lines, better than the 6. 
I hardly ever use the 1 (why use it? Just use an awl!) or the 4.
Like NDphung above, I have found the 2 prong and the 10 to be the go-to irons I use the most.
I also have a set of Kevin Lee diamond reverse irons in 3mm. They are excellent quality for the price-- well polished and finished, but they are SMALL and LIGHT. That could be a deal breaker, since they are so light and small, you have to place them carefully and strike them carefully. Like Kevin Lee states, these basic irons are helpful to get a feel for using irons without spending a lot of money.
I have a set of 4mm pricking irons, of Chinese manufacture. I bought them knowing I'd have to spend the time polishing the teeth, which is a pain, and I haven't got them as smooth as my other irons. But 15 prongs makes a nice line!


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the Sinabroks and they are every bit as good as you think they are going to be. The brass handles will make your hands stink of brass though. That is the only down side IMO. I want 5 mm irons and Sinabroks doesn't make those so I'm going to grab the KS Blade punch set of 5 mm irons. IIRC, Sinabroks is a guy that either used to work at or co-created KS Blade punch. In any case, they are great irons IMO. I haven't used any of the other high end irons to compare but since I got them, I never felt the need.

I have the 5 tooth and a 2 tooth and it has been sufficient for everything from key fobs to bags to sheaths. The higher tooth count irons I consider a luxury. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2022 at 3:33 PM, MtlBiker said:

I'm about to order some Sinabroks European style chisels from Korea and would love to hear the opinion of the members here about my choices.  I have Ritza Tiger thread in .6, .8 and 1.0mm sizes but I generally prefer the look of the thicker thread.  I'm hoping that the chisels I buy could be used with all those sizes.

I'm thinking of the 4mm chisels, in 1-, 2-, 4- and 8-prong.  Is that overkill?  Do you think I could manage without one of those?  But Sinabroks has a 10% sale on until tomorrow, and even with the discount, this order would still come to $315 US, qualifying for free shipping to Canada (orders over $300 get free shipping).  So if I drop one of those chisels from the order I would have to pay shipping, which sort of balances it out, especially with the sale.  It's only money, I guess.  SIGH

I'm hoping that such high quality stitching chisels will elevate my hand-stitching.  And I think these would be easier to punch through thicker assemblies and also easier to pull out of the leather than my Craftools chisels which make a pretty darn big hole if I punch through many layers.

Thanks for any help.

 

When you say European style, are you talking hole punches or slit chisels?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, toxo said:

When you say European style, are you talking hole punches or slit chisels?

I saw them called European style on one of the sites, but Sinabrooks themselves call them "Pricking Irons (French Style)".

I have to admit to quite a bit of confusion about these... and especially about the difference between what some people call "irons" and others call "chisels".  My understanding is that these particular ones are not just for marking where you will stitch, but also for punching through the leather and that they could easily punch through 2-3 layers of 6oz veg tan.

In any case, these are not hole punches but rather are slit chisels.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, NDphung said:

Wow you went with pretty nice stuff. 

 Wow! those are nice irons. From what I read the 1-prong iron is not as useful as the rest. 2-prong is useful in curves.  I would go for a 10-prong instead of 8-prong to help in long stitch line. Have you look at Kevin Lee irons. I heard it is very good also and not too expensive. Lonsdale leather in Vancouver used to carry Sinabroks they have free shipping.  The diameter of the tooth is 2.2 mm vs KS Blade at 1.8 mm. Rocky Mountain has their own brand at 2 and 9 tooth combination for 99$ US dollar which I think is a great deal. They don't make 4.0mm,  3.85 is their lowest SPI. I have them and I am pretty happy with them. Their listed diameter is 1.7mm. There are so many out there now. Sinabroks, KS Blade, Doldokki,  Crimson Hides, Junlin, Kevin Lee, Beagle, Wuta. 

Replies came in here too late... I already ordered so as not to miss out the 10% sale that finished Friday.  And I probably did order too much with 1, 2, 4, and 8 prong chisels.  But that also got me free shipping (from Japan to Canada) which if I had to pay for it would have been almost half the cost of a chisel.

Obviously I lack the experience of some of you guys but I would have thought the 1-prong would be useful in curves and unlike an awl (which is diamond shaped) this 1-prong would make an identical stitching hole to the others.

Lonsdale still carries Sinabroks but they are out of stock of the ones I wanted, and they don't offer free shipping either.  I haven't looked at Kevin Lee or KS Blade or the others you mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

I saw them called European style on one of the sites, but Sinabrooks themselves call them "Pricking Irons (French Style)".

I have to admit to quite a bit of confusion about these... and especially about the difference between what some people call "irons" and others call "chisels".  My understanding is that these particular ones are not just for marking where you will stitch, but also for punching through the leather and that they could easily punch through 2-3 layers of 6oz veg tan.

In any case, these are not hole punches but rather are slit chisels.

 

Yea, manufacturers and retailers have made a real mess by using an inconsistent naming convention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, DJole said:

I don't have Sinabroks--  they're nice, but too expensive for my budget. 
I began with the Craftool chisels, like most of us -- what else was there, or what else did we know about? :-) Big holes, big spacing-- not much use for the majority of what I make.
I wonder what  you mean when you say you are punching through a "lot of layers"? The more layers you have, the more difficult it is to keep the lines on the back side of the piece from wandering if you try to do them all at once, no matter what irons you are using. It would be nice to get through 4-6 mm of leather with one whack of the tool, in a straight line on both sides of the leather, but there's a BIG learning curve to get there, and I don't think the irons are meant to do that.  

I have a set of 3 mm diamond irons from Japan Goods; the original set had 1, 2, 3 4 and 6 prongs. I later added a 10 prong.  I find that I use the 2 prong a lot for curved lines. The 10 is nice for making long straight lines, better than the 6. 
I hardly ever use the 1 (why use it? Just use an awl!) or the 4.
Like NDphung above, I have found the 2 prong and the 10 to be the go-to irons I use the most.
I also have a set of Kevin Lee diamond reverse irons in 3mm. They are excellent quality for the price-- well polished and finished, but they are SMALL and LIGHT. That could be a deal breaker, since they are so light and small, you have to place them carefully and strike them carefully. Like Kevin Lee states, these basic irons are helpful to get a feel for using irons without spending a lot of money.
I have a set of 4mm pricking irons, of Chinese manufacture. I bought them knowing I'd have to spend the time polishing the teeth, which is a pain, and I haven't got them as smooth as my other irons. But 15 prongs makes a nice line!


 

Most often I guess I'd be using two layers of 6oz veg tan, but I made an axe sheath with 3 layers of 8oz (because of the gusset to protect the stitching from the axe blade).  And even with only 2 layers of 6oz the Craftool chisels have a hard time and they make too big a hole.  What I've been trying to do is to use my current chisels only to mark the holes on one side and then using my awl to push through all the way.  That takes time and I'm not as consistent as I'd like to be.  So I'm hoping that the new Sinabroks will help me improve overall.

With the Craftools chisels, I have a 2-prong and 8-prong.  With those I do use a chisel if I just need one hole, but I thought (maybe wrongly) that with the shape of the slit of the Sinabroks, my awl would make a diamond shaped hole instead of a slit.  So I also ordered the 1-prong.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MtlBiker said:

Replies came in here too late... I already ordered so as not to miss out the 10% sale that finished Friday.  And I probably did order too much with 1, 2, 4, and 8 prong chisels.  But that also got me free shipping (from Japan to Canada) which if I had to pay for it would have been almost half the cost of a chisel.

Obviously I lack the experience of some of you guys but I would have thought the 1-prong would be useful in curves and unlike an awl (which is diamond shaped) this 1-prong would make an identical stitching hole to the others.

Lonsdale still carries Sinabroks but they are out of stock of the ones I wanted, and they don't offer free shipping either.  I haven't looked at Kevin Lee or KS Blade or the others you mentioned.

I am not sure but I thought Sinabroks was South Korean (they may have move to Japan?).  I don't have that much experience but I am cheap so did a few research before buying my Irons/Chisels. Lonsdale used to have free shipping within Canada for 150$CAN and above they may have changed with the inflation. They seem to have the cheapest price on Tokonole 120ml.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have chisels from KS Blade, the company the Sinabroks guy used to work at before starting his own (and copying the design, basically). They're excellent. Pricey, yes; but worth every nickel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Hardrada said:

I have chisels from KS Blade, the company the Sinabroks guy used to work at before starting his own (and copying the design, basically). They're excellent. Pricey, yes; but worth every nickel.

I just checked the KS Blade website... I guess I didn't do enough research before ordering the Sinabroks, but I didn't know about them.  And while there is a dealer in Canada for Sinabroks (out of stock though on what I wanted) there doesn't seem to be a source for KS Blade other than through the US or direct.  But anyway, I saw only one review on the KS Blade site, and it said the the product comes unsharpened and that unless you sharpen and polish the blades, the chisel will have a hard time going through leather and be hard to pull out.  Was that your experience?  For the price, I would expect these to be ready to go out of the box.  I sure hope the Sinabroks come ready to use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MtlBiker said:

I saw only one review on the KS Blade site, and it said the the product comes unsharpened and that unless you sharpen and polish the blades, the chisel will have a hard time going through leather and be hard to pull out.  Was that your experience?  For the price, I would expect these to be ready to go out of the box.  I sure hope the Sinabroks come ready to use.

That's either a fluke or total merde de cheval. Mine came sharpened and fully ready to use. They're still sharp.

They have to come sharpened because the thing with the KS Blade chisels is that the user can't fix them if there's issue with them: one has to send them back to them in order to get them serviced. This is a hassle that the founder of Sinabroks perceived and ergo he designed his chisels to have removable teeth, because most of the issues you're likely to have with a chisel is a broken tooth, and it's indeed a pain not to be able to change them yourself.

Don't feel bad about your purchase. I wasn't trying to knock Sinabroks off. From what I've seen they're also top quality items, and made to last if not abused.

I do strongly recommend to protect the tips as much as possible, because they're finer than your run of the mill diamond chisel, and even though they're good quality, they can dull and they can break.

Edited by Hardrada

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm late to the party but I'll try to fill in the blanks.

I bought a pair of Sinabroks but I sold them.  I own five sets of KS irons.  I prefer them over the Sinabroks but both brands have their pros and cons.  Like the guy said above, they make your hands smell like brass.  KS have a flat shaft that tapers down to a round which makes them easier and more comfortable to grip when punching.  Sinabroks are round and want to twirl in my hands.  KS tips are slightly round allowing them to pierce the leather easier and to line them up on a stitch line.  The Sina's are square across making it more difficult to center on a line.  Some people scribe a line and then place the irons on one edge to punch.  The Sina's I had were blunt and needed sharpening.  The KS are sharper but they could still use some touching up.  The Sinas are highly polished, like a mirror.  They pull out of leather much easier than the KS irons.  The KS irons need some work to make smooth.  This is my experience.  They're both great brands, I'm sure you'll be happy with them. 

Sinas teeth are replaceable but you need to buy the teeth and a jig to install them.  KS need to be sent to South Korea for repair.

Japanese style diamond chisels (irons) are called stitching chisels.  Vergez Blanchard, Amy Roke and the like are traditional "pricking irons" (French style), meant to prick the leather followed up by an awl.  Sinabroks and the like are hybrid pricking irons usually referred to as stitching irons that work like "chisels" punching through the leather.  French and European style refer to non Japanese style.

Irons are measured from center to center of the teeth.  Chisels are measured by the space between the teeth.  Therefore, a 4mm diamond chisel is wider than a 4mm iron.  So I've heard.

A one tooth iron is just an expensive awl.  Two tooth is for curves.  Your 4 tooth will be easier to punch through thicker leather than your 8 tooth.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dont get the sinabrocks.   I mean sure if you got the money, go ahead.  I found on etsy a company called P-mak

https://etsy.me/3xXyskC

They did make a 5mm but it looks like they only make a 6mm now. I bought the 8 and 2.   Im by no means a professional but I have found a few tips when working with bigger spaced irons. 

I usually pre line up 2-3 holes with the 8 to continue my spacing, then punch. The problem is there is a hole bigger then the tips. So its not exact spacing and you can see it on your stitching.  

   Try lightly pressing the tips of the iron to make a impression in the leather first. do it all the way around. then you dont have to worry about lining up the first couple of prongs and miss out on punching more holes.  
   Second is sometimes I do 2  10oz peices together, and driving the irons through all the way,  and up the iron makes a huge hole because they are wider on the back then the little tip. So make sure you punch all the same sides together and not to flip over.

 

 

Edited by AtomicLeathers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just received the Sinabroks chisels I ordered 3 weeks ago...  4mm, 1-, 2-, 4- and 8-prong.  They're certainly beautiful to look at and came in nice padded boxes.  I don't have anything here at my work to try them on so will have to wait until I get home to some leather and a poundo pad.  But my first impression (other than the great looks) is that they're really not very sharp.  I'll have to see how they work when I hit them on leather using a mallet but they're certainly not as sharp as my Craftools Pro chisels.  Maybe they're going to work just fine but I really expected them to be a lot sharper.

IMG_0374.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mine work fine and I never touched them up even. Please let us know your thoughts after you use them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, battlemunky said:

Mine work fine and I never touched them up even. Please let us know your thoughts after you use them.

I tried the Sinobloks tonight and I found that they need a surprisingly harder hit with my mallet (than the Craftools Pro) to go through the leather.  That could be because they're really not sharp or maybe that's just the way it is supposed to be.  I was using two layers of 6oz veg tan that I'd dyed (which seems to make it harder).  And then with 0.8 Tiger thread and a 001 John James harness needle, I found I really had to wiggle the first needle in the hole in order to slightly open it up so the other needle could get through.  And then I also had to use a pair of pliers to pull the needle through on many/most of the holes.  Probably just going to take more practice on my part but I really do like the resulting stitch line.  The hole these irons make is certainly smaller and neater than the one made by the Craftools.

(When I say I wiggled the first needle, I mean that I first take a needle from the right and put it in the hole, wiggle it a bit along the same axis as the hole, and remove the needle.  This is done just to locate the hole and make it easier for the needle from the left to pass through.  Then in the same hole, I take my first right needle and pull it through.  I'm a beginner and I'm not sure that I'm doing it right or even that I'm explaining it correctly.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, MtlBiker said:

And then with 0.8 Tiger thread and a 001 John James harness needle, I found I really had to wiggle the first needle in the hole in order to slightly open it up so the other needle could get through.  And then I also had to use a pair of pliers to pull the needle through on many/most of the holes. 

Your using a larger needle than you need to, and that's making your life a little harder than it needs to be. 0.8mm will work fine with a #3 needle, and with a little finagling you can even get it to work with a #4.

with regards to the Sinabroks, they are wider at the tip than other french style irons if memory serves. French irons should by nature require a little more force as they are flat at the tip while diamonds form a point. 
  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, dans79 said:

Your using a larger needle than you need to, and that's making your life a little harder than it needs to be. 0.8mm will work fine with a #3 needle, and with a little finagling you can even get it to work with a #4.

with regards to the Sinabroks, they are wider at the tip than other french style irons if memory serves. French irons should by nature require a little more force as they are flat at the tip while diamonds form a point. 
  

Thanks very much!  I don't remember where I found the info but it did recommend a 001 needle for 0.8 Tiger thread.  I will give it a try with a smaller needle.  And thanks for letting me know that it's expected to need a little more force with these irons.  The hole is certainly smaller and neater than what the Craftools Pro chisels produce.  And less distortion of the leather.

Interesting though about the needle sizes... you suggest using a #3 needle but according to the John James size guide, the 003 is exactly the same as the 001...  Only the 004 is smaller.  Doesn't make a lot of sense to me (that 1-3 needles are identical).

image.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The eyelet  inner and outer sizes are different. That effects how easy it is to get the needle and the thread immediate next to the needle through the leather.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing to keep in mind is the idea behind the making of the holes.  It is commonly misunderstood.  The tines only need to be somewhat sharp at the tip.  The sides don't need to be sharp, just smooth.  The concept is that the iron pierces the leather and then opens up a hole, not cuts a hole.  If the tine cuts the leather then you end up with a slit and that slit won't want to close up.  What you really want is for the tool to pierce the leather, stretch it in order to make a hole and then after the thread goes into the hole it can close around it.  This happens by itself, but can be helped along by tapping the stitch line with a smooth-faced hammer.

I see projects all the time where the thread is on the small side and the holes are on the large side and they stick out like a sore thumb.  That's not the look you want to achieve.  

The same applies to awls, they should be sharp at the tip but polished on the edges.  if they are razor sharp all along the edge, you will be cutting a hole that same size.  Not what you want in most cases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Tugadude said:

One thing to keep in mind is the idea behind the making of the holes.  It is commonly misunderstood.  The tines only need to be somewhat sharp at the tip.  The sides don't need to be sharp, just smooth.  The concept is that the iron pierces the leather and then opens up a hole, not cuts a hole.  If the tine cuts the leather then you end up with a slit and that slit won't want to close up.  What you really want is for the tool to pierce the leather, stretch it in order to make a hole and then after the thread goes into the hole it can close around it.  This happens by itself, but can be helped along by tapping the stitch line with a smooth-faced hammer.

I see projects all the time where the thread is on the small side and the holes are on the large side and they stick out like a sore thumb.  That's not the look you want to achieve.  

The same applies to awls, they should be sharp at the tip but polished on the edges.  if they are razor sharp all along the edge, you will be cutting a hole that same size.  Not what you want in most cases.

Thank you.  I guess the tine tips are "somewhat" sharp.  Certainly not sharp enough to cut your finger, even if you press quite hard.  With enough mallet pressure they do make a very neat hole/slit though.  And I'm sure that my stitching quality is going to improve with more practice.  This is a test piece I stitched last night after using the new irons.

 

IMG_0379.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, dans79 said:

The eyelet  inner and outer sizes are different. That effects how easy it is to get the needle and the thread immediate next to the needle through the leather.

Gee, you'd think that they (JJ) would say that.  I will give the 003 needles a try though.  I just remembered that back in February as I placed my order for each of the sizes, I asked them this question:

Quote
Another question... am I mistaken or are your harness needles in sizes 1, 2 and 3 identical?  If so, why the different number?

I got an answer back from Ben at John James:

Quote
In terms of the same sizes but different numbers, i think it's always been like that but i'm unsure why

I guess the bottom line is that... Confusion reins supreme!  :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...