Hot Foil VS Hydraulic Press for volume stamping

[Workinman]

I've been stamping key fobs using an 11 ton hydraulic press.  With (tedious) alignment time spent on each piece, plus making sure the image is even, I can spend hours stamping 100 pieces.  I hear a lot about hot stamping machines, especially relative to higher output.  So, my question is, would I be better off paying for a good pneumatic hot foil stamping machine, or a good pneumatic hydraulic press ?  Sorry if this is a dumb question.  I'm relatively new to all this

Thank you !!

[Burkhardt]

It's a matter of do you want the foil debossed or are you OK with just the stamping foil. You can get a hot stamping machine for under 500 or up to 5000 with automatic foil advance and you can make the the holder so you can repeat every time. Check in the marketplace on here or Tandy or Springfield Leather.

[nstarleather]

If it’s just speeding up getting placement right there are all sorts of jigs you can employ.  Even with a heat press, we have a few different ways we make things to get placement right.  
 

Let me see your stamping setup and I’ll give you the idea.

[Workinman]

Thanks Burkhardt and Mike Batson !!

I probably overcomplicated this.  I don't have any (current) plans for stamping with foil, so, the only point in mentioning a hot foil stamping machine was a result of a conversation I had with a friend who also dabbles in leather.

My only "need" right now is to speed up the stamping process.  I currently use a 12 ton Harbor Freight hydraulic press (see photo).  My stamps are brass (see photo) and are made by LeatherStampMaker here in SoCal.  Everything works fine, except the alignment (very tedious) and pressure (sometimes the image is too light, sometimes too deep, sometimes deeper on one side than the other, ......).  If I stamp 100 pieces, I will get 8-10 that are unsaleable (not horribe).  BUT, it might take me 3+ hours to stamp those 100 pieces.

BTW- The magnitude of the problem is much greater than described because I have two different product lines with 8 different designs for each.  So, in a typical month I might need to stamp several hundred pieces.

 

Appreciate your suggestions !!

 

[nstarleather]

Ok I’m going to assume you don’t have a way to attach the die to the press?  If you do then I have two really easy ways to create a setup…because that’s what you do with a heat press.

But if both your item and your die are mobile from the pressure you can do what I do when I use the clicker to emboss. I’ll give you an example using circles for simplicity:

Lets say you have 4” round circle and you have to stamp a 2.5” circle in the center.

First take some heavy card stock or even leather and cut the 4” circle.  Then set a perfectly stamped coaster (a poster child)in the hole you just cut out.  Next, cut into another piece of poster board a hole the length and width of the design you’re stamping…in our example a 2.50” circle.   Slide the top piece with the smaller hole over the other piece where you’ve set the poster child piece until you see the design perfectly framed by the top piece.  Hold the placement tight and tape or glue the two pieces together.

Now you have a jig that will hold the leather in the bottom and allow you to perfectly seat the die on top.  
Put your item in the bottom die on top, press, rinse and repeat.

[RockyAussie]

Just to add a little to Mike's advice above. A good embossing machine will allow you to adjust up and down for the various thicknesses to get just the depth of impression you want. Some of the manual clicker presses will also do this as well as come in handy if you want to do some clicking or wet moulding as well. This picture below shows one of my embossing machines which has the advantage of a sliding table and with this I am able to position many different cardboard cut out shapes to simply screw down and position between different jobs. It generally takes about 1 minute to change the cardboard to a different shape piece and the stamping takes just a few seconds for each piece.

This is another one I use that has a guide that can be adjusted to act as a stopper and that is able to be set back or forward on the table. With it I often just use a square shaped magnet on one side of the guide to set the stamp position left +right.

Edited August 30, 2022 by RockyAussie

[Buckles]

Take this from the "hack that I am" because I might not have your problem clear in my mind... But, I would try reverse engineering your process, whereby I'd do the stamping, then (assuming you use a clicker die), align the clicker die to the stamping and cut the key fob afterward. Another trick that I have employed on situations like this is, "if I can't get it straight with a reasonable effort, I intentionally make it crooked by design..."  Before you respond, remember; "the hack that I am"... ha ha!

[nstarleather]

14 hours ago, RockyAussie said:

Just to add a little to Mike's advice above. A good embossing machine will allow you to adjust up and down for the various thicknesses to get just the depth of impression you want. Some of the manual clicker presses will also do this as well as come in handy if you want to do some clicking or wet moulding as well. This picture below shows one of my embossing machines which has the advantage of a sliding table and with this I am able to position many different cardboard cut out shapes to simply screw down and position between different jobs. It generally takes about 1 minute to change the cardboard to a different shape piece and the stamping takes just a few seconds for each piece.

This is another one I use that has a guide that can be adjusted to act as a stopper and that is able to be set back or forward on the table. With it I often just use a square shaped magnet on one side of the guide to set the stamp position left +right.

Yes this is exactly how my machines work and it's great.  I was assuming that OP doesn't have the ability to attach the die to the press...if he does, that totally changes the game.  Another "quick and dirty" way to do it if you don't need super-precise stamping is just to "nest" the die into one that you've already stamped with the machine, tape the item down and then just put the next ones right on top aligned with the edges...it's less accurate but still close...works great with items like pouches that are going to be turned and the exact placement won't mater if it's off by 1mm or less. 

[Buckles]

"My only "need" right now is to speed up the stamping process.  I currently use a 12 ton Harbor Freight hydraulic press (see photo).  My stamps are brass (see photo) and are made by LeatherStampMaker here in SoCal.  Everything works fine, except the alignment (very tedious) and pressure (sometimes the image is too light, sometimes too deep, sometimes deeper on one side than the other, ......).  If I stamp 100 pieces, I will get 8-10 that are unsaleable (not horribe).  BUT, it might take me 3+ hours to stamp those 100 pieces."

 

Now that I paid more attention to what Workinman said, I do have a few thoughts. "IF", unlikely, but if you had access to a milling machine cross slide that has x, y, and z axis that would help with alignment. And if you fitted your press with a electric power pack (hydraulics) (Google "Enerpac") and (push) cylinder (fitted with a gauge) that would get the speed up and you "might" be able to have a more consistent press pressure. BUT you would still have to deal with the uneven stamping which makes me think that putting stops at the outside of the press bed to limit the downward movement would cause the press to have to be consistent from side to side, but not front to back. (then use the z axis on the cross slide to regulate the press's (downward) limits. I wonder if you put a heavy chunk of steel at the outside edges of the press bed would regulate the "front to back pressure" as well as the side to side pressure?

Personally, I would still try getting the stamping right first, then align the clicker die to the lettering for the final stamp... but that's just me.

However, all that said, this is likely a problem that can only be fixed by throwing cash at it and I don't think it would be cheap... if there was ever a chance that you might want to employ the foil, I'd have to assume the machine made for this task would be the way to go.

I apologize if this reply shows up as a double post... I may have messed that up...

[Workinman]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to offer such detailed suggestions !!!  I really appreciate it !

Since the die and leather piece are mobile (not fixed to the press), I think the suggestion Mike Batson offered re creating a jig.  The way Mike described creating the jig will work for me because each of dies are square and can be set up using a "poster child" of each image as Mike described.

As for the pressure issue, since my press is hydraulic (not pneumatic), I will look in to adding a pressure gage.  If that isn't possible, I will upgrade my press to a pneumatic press- which does come with a pressure gage.

A guy at the local Tandy store also suggested that I look at the dies to see if they are warped, since I am using a 12 ton press.  He thought my dies might need to be a little thicker to press more evenly (just throwing this out there if case any of you encounter another another newbie like me

Thanks again everyone !!!!

[Buckles]

One last thing that you might consider... can you adapt a laser or lasers (light-s) for positioning your workpiece OR the jig, since it sounds as though you might have to change from one product line to another on a regular basis? They are often times "standard equipment" on the cheap wood working machinery (chop saws etc.) so they can't be expensive.

BTW, I have been using a 2 ton press for clicker dies (but they aren't large) and it cuts the leather without a problem... 12 tons could certainly be over-kill.

[nstarleather]

16 hours ago, Workinman said:

Thank you all so much for taking the time to offer such detailed suggestions !!!  I really appreciate it !

Since the die and leather piece are mobile (not fixed to the press), I think the suggestion Mike Batson offered re creating a jig.  The way Mike described creating the jig will work for me because each of dies are square and can be set up using a "poster child" of each image as Mike described.

As for the pressure issue, since my press is hydraulic (not pneumatic), I will look in to adding a pressure gage.  If that isn't possible, I will upgrade my press to a pneumatic press- which does come with a pressure gage.

A guy at the local Tandy store also suggested that I look at the dies to see if they are warped, since I am using a 12 ton press.  He thought my dies might need to be a little thicker to press more evenly (just throwing this out there if case any of you encounter another another newbie like me

Thanks again everyone !!!!

I can't think of a perfect way to be consistent with pressure but you could always come up with a "ideal" pressure and make a mark on the handle and on one the press that you line up so you know how far to pull down, then you're getting some consistency.  

[Workinman]

Thank you, Mike.  I agree.  I do case my leather as it seems to leave sharper impressions that I think are visually appealing.  However, that introduces another variable- moisture content ?!?!?!  Frankly, if I can solve the other issues, the pressure is something I can deal with, like you said.  Get an approximate pressure for each image, note it and start there when stamping that particular image.  Should be close enough to not slow me down too much.

To all- I do appreciate the effort and trouble you went to in giving me your advice !!!

 

Mike

[Wizcrafts]

On 8/31/2022 at 3:06 PM, Buckles said:

BTW, I have been using a 2 ton press for clicker dies (but they aren't large) and it cuts the leather without a problem... 12 tons could certainly be over-kill.

I also used to have a two ton arbor press. I used it as a clicker press by placing a steel plate over the dies and moving them around under the ram. The ram was modified to hold a 3 inch diameter x 1/2 inch thick round steel plate that had a 1/2 inch rod welded in the center to fit onto the hole in the ram. The die maker also made me a 3 foot long handle. I had to bolt the press down hard!

[Workinman]

Thanks for your comment !

Before I bought the 12 ton press I looked into buying an Arbor press.  Since my images are approx. 3.5" in diameter, I felt the arbor press would be iffy.  I like the mod you made to the ram on your press.  You wouldn't happen to have a photo you could post ?  Also, what kind of company made that mod for you (welder, fabricator, etc) ??

Thanks again !