Thread problem, any thoughts helpful

[srtolly]

I do a fair bit of repair work on vintage holsters, mostly for German Luger pistols. They used a linen thread in the construction which will often break due to use, and dirt abrading the thread in the seams. I have a 1934 holster on my bench now that is a puzzler. The thread on the outside is gone, the places where it remains is in varies from in tact to thin and black. On the inside the thread looks as if nothing has happened to it. Originally the holster would have been brown, then dyed black later, not sure why they did that. I had thought that someone may have tried to remove the black dye since the top of the holster looks like that could have been the case, but most likely from a waist coat rubbing on it. 

I guess what I'm looking for are possibilities as to how this could happen so I can do my best to preserve this piece of history, any help is appreciated. Pictures show the same stitch line.

[Constabulary]

Not sure what your question is? How to remove the black paint or what kind of thread they have used?

I do now much about German Luger holsters but maybe at one time there was an order to stain old stock brown leather goods in to black. Like they did in 1956 with the US M-1916 Colt 1911 holsters and other military leather goods (Military Police Equipment f.i.). No matter what I would leave it as is meaning I would not try to remove the black stain.

Regarding thread. Common linen thread back then was made by GRUSCHWITZ, HIRSCHFELDER, HOOGEN or ACKERMANN.  You sometimes find the shoe and saddlery thread named SEIDENERSATZ (don´t ask me why) but that AFAIK is a cotton thread.

 

[srtolly]

49 minutes ago, Constabulary said:

Not sure what your question is? How to remove the black paint or what kind of thread they have used?

I do now much about German Luger holsters but maybe at one time there was an order to stain old stock brown leather goods in to black. Like they did in 1956 with the US M-1916 Colt 1911 holsters and other military leather goods (Military Police Equipment f.i.). No matter what I would leave it as is meaning I would not try to remove the black stain.

Regarding thread. Common linen thread back then was made by GRUSCHWITZ, HIRSCHFELDER, HOOGEN or ACKERMANN.  You sometimes find the shoe and saddlery thread named SEIDENERSATZ (don´t ask me why) but that AFAIK is a cotton thread.

 

I appreciate the information, that's exactly what they did, re-dyed old stock holsters before they were dated and otherwise marked. To try to clarify, my question is: what happened to the thread to disintegrate the top of the thread? I've worked on quite a few of these old holsters, as far back as 1916, and never seen anything like this. The thread between the layers is black. I want to make sure the leather will be ok, it's in pretty good shape overall considering it's nearly 80 years old.

[chuck123wapati]

1 hour ago, srtolly said:

I appreciate the information, that's exactly what they did, re-dyed old stock holsters before they were dated and otherwise marked. To try to clarify, my question is: what happened to the thread to disintegrate the top of the thread? I've worked on quite a few of these old holsters, as far back as 1916, and never seen anything like this. The thread between the layers is black. I want to make sure the leather will be ok, it's in pretty good shape overall considering it's nearly 80 years old.

the thread could have been either worn off or my guess is some type of chemical they used on the outside of the holster ate it up. I know from working the oil field that some lubricants will eat up the stitching in leather boots rather quickly too, guys used to try and waterproof their boots with the crap and in a few months were buying a new pair of redwings lol.

[srtolly]

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

the thread could have been either worn off or my guess is some type of chemical they used on the outside of the holster ate it up. I know from working the oil field that some lubricants will eat up the stitching in leather boots rather quickly too, guys used to try and waterproof their boots with the crap and in a few months were buying a new pair of redwings lol.

I just came in from the shop, and after three hours of picking out the old thread, I pretty much came to the same conclusion. Someone, in this holsters lifetime, used something to care for it that they shouldn't have. As I was working on it, my mind drifted into the way back files of my days on the farm with my grandpa. We went to an auction once and saw a set of reigns for a horse drawn plow. Grandpa told all about how the leather hadn't been cared for well, and how it should have been done. I love memories like that, even if it was 50 years ago. Could have been veggie oil, motor oil or some other such thing, but those same signs are there. 

I'll give it a good cleaning, and see what comes of it. I had to completely disassemble it to get everything clean.

[Burkhardt]

4 hours ago, srtolly said:

Could have been veggie oil, motor oil or some other such thing, but those same signs are there.

And why is it you think veggie oil would eat the thread?

[srtolly]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:59 PM, Burkhardt said:

And why is it you think veggie oil would eat the thread?

Just kind of thinking out loud really, I did see some spots that looked like it could be some rancid vegetable type oil. At this point about all I can do is give it a good cleaning and re-assemble it.

[chuck123wapati]

found this info, I'm assuming it was a cotton blend at least.

https://leathermilk.com/leather-conditioner-rot-stitching

 

 

Cotton Threads

Cotton is an organic thread. The thread's quality is actually quite good on its own - cotton is fairly durable, and is very cheap. Next to nylon, it's among the most common materials used for threads. Unfortunately, cotton has some weaknesses. Cotton absorbs water and conditioner, takes longer to dry, has food value for bacteria, and can degrade outdoors. This fosters an ideal environment for rot potential, especially when the cotton stitching. This problem can be mitigated, somewhat, when the stitching is made from waxed cotton. This type of thread has natural resistance against water and oils, and will repel fluids well. Although this thread will likely last much longer than other cotton threads, it can still degrade under weather and sunlight. Cotton is particularly vulnerable outdoors, and as such, it is scarcely used to make leather products.

[TomE]

I’ve seen this wear pattern on stirrup leathers with rotted linen thread. The thread on the surface is lost but the holes contain plugs of thread. Haven’t seen it turn black but I haven’t worked on pieces that were recolored. 

[mooreleatherworking]

The thread is not the problem

Just clean it with saddle soap, add new thread that is larger diameter (make sure to wax it), and add a water barrier. 

[mooreleatherworking]

When the leather is not protected, water gets in there and increases the size of the hole. The thread could not be waxed enough. Dirt and junk gets in there and rots. The dye is probably oil based so the wear would be from abrasion.

[srtolly]

3 hours ago, chuck123wapati said:

found this info, I'm assuming it was a cotton blend at least.

https://leathermilk.com/leather-conditioner-rot-stitching

 

 

Cotton Threads

Cotton is an organic thread. The thread's quality is actually quite good on its own - cotton is fairly durable, and is very cheap. Next to nylon, it's among the most common materials used for threads. Unfortunately, cotton has some weaknesses. Cotton absorbs water and conditioner, takes longer to dry, has food value for bacteria, and can degrade outdoors. This fosters an ideal environment for rot potential, especially when the cotton stitching. This problem can be mitigated, somewhat, when the stitching is made from waxed cotton. This type of thread has natural resistance against water and oils, and will repel fluids well. Although this thread will likely last much longer than other cotton threads, it can still degrade under weather and sunlight. Cotton is particularly vulnerable outdoors, and as such, it is scarcely used to make leather products.

There's some pretty good information there. I like when companies actually put useful info out while promoting their products, I'll have to give them a try (maybe not on one of these vintage rigs yet). When I re-stitch these holsters I try to keep everything period correct as not to affect the value any more than necessary, but I do wax the cotton thread it replace it with.

[srtolly]

1 hour ago, TomE said:

I’ve seen this wear pattern on stirrup leathers with rotted linen thread. The thread on the surface is lost but the holes contain plugs of thread. Haven’t seen it turn black but I haven’t worked on pieces that were recolored. 

I'm sure the black is from the dye. Some of the spots the thread is gone from are wear areas while some are not, just an odd situation I haven't come across in dozens of these holsters I've worked on.

[srtolly]

1 hour ago, mooreleatherworking said:

The thread is not the problem

Just clean it with saddle soap, add new thread that is larger diameter (make sure to wax it), and add a water barrier. 

This is an 88 year old WW2 German holster that belongs to a collector, I need to keep my repairs as authentic as possible. I will be cleaning it with a saddle soap, while it's wet I can massage the leather a bit to decrease the size of the holes where needed. There are two different size threads on these holsters but I do wax them before stitching. No water barrier to speak of, I finish with Connolly's Hide Care which has Lanolin and Bees Wax in it, then it goes in a linen bag before being shipped back to my customer.

[srtolly]

1 hour ago, mooreleatherworking said:

When the leather is not protected, water gets in there and increases the size of the hole. The thread could not be waxed enough. Dirt and junk gets in there and rots. The dye is probably oil based so the wear would be from abrasion.

With many of the holsters I work on you can see and feel the dirt between the layers of leather that abraded the thread causing it to break.

[mooreleatherworking]

On 11/10/2022 at 9:51 AM, srtolly said:

With many of the holsters I work on you can see and feel the dirt between the layers of leather that abraded the thread causing it to break.

The abrasion I'm referring is to about this "I had thought that someone may have tried to remove the black dye since the top of the holster looks like that could have been the case, but most likely from a waist coat rubbing on it.". We are both thinking the same thing.

When I say "water barrier" I am referring to any finishing oil or wax that acts as a protective shield or barrier between the leather and water or moisture.