Michael Sheldon Report post Posted January 9, 2023 I've been starting to look at a machine to replace my Cowboy Model 5. The model 5 works fine, but it really was the wrong machine for me due to its feed system. It scores up the back side, and leaves an impression on the front side due to the heavy pressure on the foot (Even with the pressure adjusted all the way out). So I hardly ever use it. What I Need: Must have needle or compound feed that does not mar either side of the leather. Must handle up to #277 thread. Must handle from 6oz total thickness, up to 1/2" material. Thinner would be great, thicker is not needed. Cylinder bed preferred, especially if a table attachment is available. I use #277 quite a bit for belts, leashes and such, but I never use anything heavier. Would be nice, but not required if it could also handle down to #69 thread and thin leather, then I could also ditch my Thompson PW-400. The biggest issue I'm seeing is that there are machines that go up to #207 (135x16 needle) that can handle very light stuff up to low-medium. Then there are the machines that go up to #415 (794 needle) that are designed for mid to heavy. There's nothing I've found that sits between them. A couple of the 135x16 machines claim to go up to #277, but they have to be talking about non-leather material using 315x17 needles, given that the largest 315x16 needles I've found only go to size 23, which is not at all ideal for #277. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted January 9, 2023 49 minutes ago, Michael Sheldon said: A couple of the 135x16 machines claim to go up to #277, The V277 seems to be the cross over thread size for most machines from the system 135 needles to the system 7 / 794 needles. I have seen the same claims of machines being able to handle V277 thread but with a system 135 #24 needle being the max size of needle their machines can handle. Maybe you can stuff V277 thread through the eye of the needle but I question whether it would sew in 3/8" thick tough leather with V277 in the bobbin. Hopefully someone can clarify that point. A couple of options that maybe worth considering would be one of the one armed bandits (Cowboy Outlaw, Tippmann Boss or Weaver Cub) or something similar to the Cowboy 3500/4500/5500 with the new plate and feed dog setup like RockyAussie came up with. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sheldon Report post Posted January 9, 2023 I've looked at the manuals, and they're definitely an option. My biggest downside to them is that it makes one hand unavailable for holding the material. If I could put a treadle on the Cub... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted January 9, 2023 53 minutes ago, Michael Sheldon said: I've looked at the manuals, and they're definitely an option. My biggest downside to them is that it makes one hand unavailable for holding the material. If I could put a treadle on the Cub... I did forgot to mention the Cowboy 2500, it maybe be another option as it can handle the middle ground of thread sizing, V138 to V346, but it is a bottom feed machine. Just another thought. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sheldon Report post Posted January 11, 2023 Yeah, definitely no bottom-feed machines. Feed dogs leaving marks is the #1 reason I'm looking for a new machine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlZilla Report post Posted January 11, 2023 8 hours ago, Michael Sheldon said: Yeah, definitely no bottom-feed machines. Feed dogs leaving marks is the #1 reason I'm looking for a new machine. Would smooth feed dogs solve your problem? I've bee drooling over the cb3500/cb4500 and I know a smooth feed dog is available. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sheldon Report post Posted January 11, 2023 Yes, smooth feed dogs solve the problem, but that's not possible on bottom-feed only machines like the CB2500. The CB3500/CB4500 are compound feed, and on my list of possibilities, as is the CB3200. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DonInReno Report post Posted January 13, 2023 On 1/11/2023 at 12:43 PM, Michael Sheldon said: The CB3500/CB4500 are compound feed, and on my list of possibilities, as is the CB3200. I predict you’ll end up with one of these. They sew quite well with 277, but once you have one of the big machines you’ll find a number of projects that benefit from thicker thread that haven’t been on your radar. Same for thickness - 1/2” seems like your maximum now, but once you have the ability for thicker leather (and synthetics) you’ll find a number of projects that benefit from the extra presser foot lift. Personally, I don’t use my big machine with thread below 138. For 90 or 69 size thread it’s just more enjoyable to sew on a smaller machine, and it avoids having to change a lot of settings. Having said that, there are a number of guys in here who have sewn 69 on the Cowboy 4500 and it shouldn’t be hard to find those threads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sheldon Report post Posted January 13, 2023 I currently have a machine rated for very heavy thread (Cowboy Model 5). I've never used, or had any desire to use, anything heavier than 277. It is definitely looking like I will end up with a CB3500 or similar, and I will keep my Thompson PW400 for lightweight work. The CB4500 is out, I don't have space for a machine with a 16" arm. I may look at the Artisan Toro-3200 though. It appears to be identical to the CB4500, but with a 10.5" arm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted January 13, 2023 6 hours ago, Michael Sheldon said: I currently have a machine rated for very heavy thread (Cowboy Model 5). I am not familiar with and couldn't find a photo / spec of the Cowboy Model 5. Do you have a photo? kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick1 Report post Posted January 13, 2023 You can buy the CB3500 and outfit it with smaller feed dog and plate. Left to right #1. Feed dog that comes with the machine. #2. Cowboy narrow feed dog. #3. Xtreme #25 feed dog. #4. Xtreme #23 feed dog. #5. Xtreme #20 feed dog. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sheldon Report post Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) Ah, not Cowboy technically. Neel's Saddlery Model 5. According to the manual, it will do anything from #69 to #554. Reality is that anything under #138 is a no-go, can't get the lower tension high enough. Even #138 is a bit dodgy. It was inexpensive, and I didn't understand enough at the time how big a deal it was that it was bottom-feed only. It sews #207 and #277 very nicely, but the feed dogs mar the bottom, and the high foot pressure can leave marks from compression and burnishing on some leather as well. It's great for utility work, probably excellent for nylon strapping, etc., but not good for leather if appearance matters. Edited January 13, 2023 by Michael Sheldon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kgg Report post Posted January 13, 2023 15 minutes ago, Michael Sheldon said: Neel's Saddlery Model 5. Thanks, today the replacement model is a Cowboy CB2500. kgg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
