Singer 29 k large vs small bobbin capacities?

[Bj Dixon]

I own neither of these machines, but i am in the market as it were.

Is it worth shopping for a large bobbin machine over a small bobbin?

If you could give me a frame of reference that would be great. For example: a small bobbin will hold 10 feet of 138 and a large bobbin will hold 15 feet.

Or maybe compare it to a more common bobbin size like a 20U bobbin.

I also see the large and small bobbin arms are slightly different sizes. Is there any significant disadvantage to the slightly wider/deeper arm end?

 

Thanks for any replies.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Bj Dixon
spelling

[Wizcrafts]

If we accept that a Singer G bobbin is the standard for 1x, the small patcher bobbin would be about 1/4 x and the large bobbin would be about 1/2x. With #138 thread, the small bobbin might hold 4.25 yards and the large, twice that much (maybe 9 yds). This is based on my box of prewound T70 bobbins for my small bobbin patcher. They are 9.5 yards each of v69/T70. #138 is twice as thick.

[Bj Dixon]

20 minutes ago, Wizcrafts said:

If we accept that a Singer G bobbin is the standard for 1x, the small patcher bobbin would be about 1/4 x and the large bobbin would be about 1/2x. With #138 thread, the small bobbin might hold 4.25 yards and the large, twice that much (maybe 9 yds). This is based on my box of prewound T70 bobbins for my small bobbin patcher. They are 9.5 yards each of v69/T70. #138 is twice as thick.

Check. So the large bobbin is roughly twice the capacity of the small bobbin.

 

Do you find the wider/deeper arm on the large bobbin machine limiting or are there any real functional difference between the two?

[Quade]

I dread running out of bobbin thread. It always happens 1/2 way through a seam. if I had a choice, I'd get the large bobbin. Still that just puts off the problem. 

[Bj Dixon]

34 minutes ago, Quade said:

I dread running out of bobbin thread. It always happens 1/2 way through a seam. if I had a choice, I'd get the large bobbin. Still that just puts off the problem. 

For me it's more about not running out before I'm finished something like a large holster, belt, gloves, etc. If I can double the bobbin size by choosing a different model at time of purchase, that at least gives me a better chance of finishing before the bobbin runs out.....

Edited January 15, 2023 by Bj Dixon

[Wizcrafts]

51 minutes ago, Bj Dixon said:

For me it's more about not running out before I'm finished something like a large holster, belt, gloves, etc. If I can double the bobbin size by choosing a different model at time of purchase, that at least gives me a better chance of finishing before the bobbin runs out.....

I think you are overestimating the capability of a patcher when you mention sewing holsters. I have owned 6 patchers and currently have two. One is a small bobbin short arm Singer 29k71. The other is a long arm large bobbin Adler 30-7. All patchers are top feed machines. They have teeth of the foot to claw the leather to form stitch length. The absolute maximum length of a pristine Singer patcher is 5 to the inch at about 5 to 6 ounces thickness. The thicker the leather, the shorter the stitches become. That assumes that the teeth are aggressive. Some feet have finer teeth that won't pull thick leather as well as the course tooth feet. You will have a trail of very visible tooth marks to rub out after you're done sewing!

Next is the maximum thickness a 29k patcher can actually sew. A well adjusted patcher lifts 5/16 inch above the throat plate. If we allow about 1/16 inch minimum clearance for the foot to move forward for the next stitch, that only leaves a maximum of 1/4 inch (16 ounces) sewable thickness. 

The next concern is thread size. Let's assume you get a large bobbin patcher, not small. You want to use #138 thread, top and bottom. You should be able to wind about 8.5 yards onto a bobbin if you keep good tension on the thread and allow it to wind evenly across the inner face. I looked at my box of prewound large patcher bobbins and they hold 17 yards of #69 bonded nylon thread. That would only be about 8.5 yards of #138.

The next matter has to do with the fact that there is no edge guide for a patch machine. You will have to fabricate one, or use your fingers and eyes to guide the sewing to keep a straight line. And forget about using a magnetic edge guide on the throat plate! It pulls up the shuttle and bobbin and interferes with the stitches. Sewing along the edge of a belt, or any long strap will be a challenge to stay straight and not wander out of line.

Assuming you are okay with all of the above limitations, #138 thread has 22 pounds breaking strength. I would not trust a holster that was sewn with that size thread. In my shop we use #277 thread, top and bottom, for holsters. A Singer patcher cannot properly handle that size thread. The bobbin would only hold 4 yards at best.

I recommend that you get a proper holster stitcher for thick work, using big needles and thick thread. Then add a long arm large bobbin patcher for fixing boot and shoe uppers, or sewing patches onto vests and jacket sleeves. Limit that machine to #92 bonded thread.

FYI: I only use #69 thread in my small bobbin Singer patcher. I mostly use #69 thread in the large bobbin Adler, but sometimes #92, and once in a great while, #138. I always use the same size thread in the bobbin. If there are two sizes of thread in a lockstitch machine, the thinner thread sets the strength of the stitches. In that case, a large top stitch is only for appearance, not strength.

I hope this helps.

[Bj Dixon]

17 hours ago, Wizcrafts said:

I think you are overestimating the capability of a patcher when you mention sewing holsters. I have owned 6 patchers and currently have two. One is a small bobbin short arm Singer 29k71. The other is a long arm large bobbin Adler 30-7. All patchers are top feed machines. They have teeth of the foot to claw the leather to form stitch length. The absolute maximum length of a pristine Singer patcher is 5 to the inch at about 5 to 6 ounces thickness. The thicker the leather, the shorter the stitches become. That assumes that the teeth are aggressive. Some feet have finer teeth that won't pull thick leather as well as the course tooth feet. You will have a trail of very visible tooth marks to rub out after you're done sewing!

Next is the maximum thickness a 29k patcher can actually sew. A well adjusted patcher lifts 5/16 inch above the throat plate. If we allow about 1/16 inch minimum clearance for the foot to move forward for the next stitch, that only leaves a maximum of 1/4 inch (16 ounces) sewable thickness. 

The next concern is thread size. Let's assume you get a large bobbin patcher, not small. You want to use #138 thread, top and bottom. You should be able to wind about 8.5 yards onto a bobbin if you keep good tension on the thread and allow it to wind evenly across the inner face. I looked at my box of prewound large patcher bobbins and they hold 17 yards of #69 bonded nylon thread. That would only be about 8.5 yards of #138.

The next matter has to do with the fact that there is no edge guide for a patch machine. You will have to fabricate one, or use your fingers and eyes to guide the sewing to keep a straight line. And forget about using a magnetic edge guide on the throat plate! It pulls up the shuttle and bobbin and interferes with the stitches. Sewing along the edge of a belt, or any long strap will be a challenge to stay straight and not wander out of line.

Assuming you are okay with all of the above limitations, #138 thread has 22 pounds breaking strength. I would not trust a holster that was sewn with that size thread. In my shop we use #277 thread, top and bottom, for holsters. A Singer patcher cannot properly handle that size thread. The bobbin would only hold 4 yards at best.

I recommend that you get a proper holster stitcher for thick work, using big needles and thick thread. Then add a long arm large bobbin patcher for fixing boot and shoe uppers, or sewing patches onto vests and jacket sleeves. Limit that machine to #92 bonded thread.

FYI: I only use #69 thread in my small bobbin Singer patcher. I mostly use #69 thread in the large bobbin Adler, but sometimes #92, and once in a great while, #138. I always use the same size thread in the bobbin. If there are two sizes of thread in a lockstitch machine, the thinner thread sets the strength of the stitches. In that case, a large top stitch is only for appearance, not strength.

I hope this helps.

8.5 yds is plenty for what type of work I plan to do (personal stuff, not for pay). At least it's better than 4.25 yds in a small bobbin....

Edited January 16, 2023 by Bj Dixon

[Burkhardt]

12 hours ago, Bj Dixon said:

8.5 yds is plenty for what type of work I plan to do (personal stuff, not for pay). At least it's better than 4.25 yds in a small bobbin....

I think you missed the whole point of @Wizcrafts post, neither machine you're referring about will/can sew any type of holsters. A 1/4 of an inch for a holster would be a real flimsy holster. You got the best explanation and knowledge from someone as you're going to get from @Wizcrafts.

[Goatmother]

On 1/15/2023 at 4:50 PM, Wizcrafts said:

I think you are overestimating the capability of a patcher when you mention sewing holsters. I have owned 6 patchers and currently have two. One is a small bobbin short arm Singer 29k71. The other is a long arm large bobbin Adler 30-7. All patchers are top feed machines. They have teeth of the foot to claw the leather to form stitch length. The absolute maximum length of a pristine Singer patcher is 5 to the inch at about 5 to 6 ounces thickness. The thicker the leather, the shorter the stitches become. That assumes that the teeth are aggressive. Some feet have finer teeth that won't pull thick leather as well as the course tooth feet. You will have a trail of very visible tooth marks to rub out after you're done sewing!

Next is the maximum thickness a 29k patcher can actually sew. A well adjusted patcher lifts 5/16 inch above the throat plate. If we allow about 1/16 inch minimum clearance for the foot to move forward for the next stitch, that only leaves a maximum of 1/4 inch (16 ounces) sewable thickness. 

The next concern is thread size. Let's assume you get a large bobbin patcher, not small. You want to use #138 thread, top and bottom. You should be able to wind about 8.5 yards onto a bobbin if you keep good tension on the thread and allow it to wind evenly across the inner face. I looked at my box of prewound large patcher bobbins and they hold 17 yards of #69 bonded nylon thread. That would only be about 8.5 yards of #138.

The next matter has to do with the fact that there is no edge guide for a patch machine. You will have to fabricate one, or use your fingers and eyes to guide the sewing to keep a straight line. And forget about using a magnetic edge guide on the throat plate! It pulls up the shuttle and bobbin and interferes with the stitches. Sewing along the edge of a belt, or any long strap will be a challenge to stay straight and not wander out of line.

Assuming you are okay with all of the above limitations, #138 thread has 22 pounds breaking strength. I would not trust a holster that was sewn with that size thread. In my shop we use #277 thread, top and bottom, for holsters. A Singer patcher cannot properly handle that size thread. The bobbin would only hold 4 yards at best.

I recommend that you get a proper holster stitcher for thick work, using big needles and thick thread. Then add a long arm large bobbin patcher for fixing boot and shoe uppers, or sewing patches onto vests and jacket sleeves. Limit that machine to #92 bonded thread.

FYI: I only use #69 thread in my small bobbin Singer patcher. I mostly use #69 thread in the large bobbin Adler, but sometimes #92, and once in a great while, #138. I always use the same size thread in the bobbin. If there are two sizes of thread in a lockstitch machine, the thinner thread sets the strength of the stitches. In that case, a large top stitch is only for appearance, not strength.

I hope this helps.

I saw this thread and your detailed answer searching for information on the Singer 29K71 . I wish I had researched here before purchasing the machine some years ago but it's what I have now and I'm not in a position to buy another.  I have always done my leather sewing by hand but now with arthritis I needed to move to a machine and I wanted a treadle. 

So I have a further questions on threads and needles.  So far I have used what the seller gave me with the machine.  One spool of nylon twist, on a wooden spool with a partly unreadable label, labeled D/E., which I wound numerous times on the two bobbins I have. He demo'ed the machine on vegetan leather and it sewed beautifully with the regular (not leather) needle.  Thus far I have only used it on a vinylized upholstery fabric with many folds, over 100 yds of binding and, except for the annoyance of winding so many bobbins, I am happy with it's performance. It also came with packs of Groz-Beckert needles in sizes from 130/21 to160/23and a drawer-full of bobbins that are made of just thread. Now I know why he used them! 

I have the manual in photocopy. It states needle ranges and specifies leather needle as 29 x 4 in sizes 9, 11, 14. 16, and 18 - 23.  The  Pilgrim shoe company catalog which he recommended for parts and supplies closed in 2019. 

So here are my questions:

1. Where can I find the proper, and heavier, leather needles for the patcher?

2. What thread do you recommend for sewing various types of leather?  I use everything from thin buckskin to full thickness cowhide. I have always preferred natural fiber for what I make, waxed cotton, linen, etc., but realize that this machine is very touchy about tension and feed.  Will I be forced to compromise  and use synthetics like nylon?  And is there some kind of chart available to match threads to needles?

3. These bobbins appear to be a heavier thread and maybe natural fiber as well.  How can I tell what weight they are so I can perhaps find spooled machine thread to match them?

and finally, 4. Where can I find the small bobbins that I can be sure I'm getting good quality? (meaning, not made in China).

If there are sources or articles on some of the technical questions, please point me to them. 

With great appreciation,

Goatmother

[e1duende]

I have a Singer 29U173A with the smaller bobbin. Was not aware of all these specifics but makes since.  Thanks.  

[shoepatcher]

Contact Bob Kovar at Toledo Sewing for needles.  Best thread to use on it is #69 and #92.  i have bobbin and genuine Simanco hooks and generic for sale.  I also have the books on the 29U171A for the machine.  I charge for them just so you know.

glenn

Edited December 15, 2023 by shoepatcher