Adler 167-gk373 problems...

[Wyowally]

Trying to help out a friend. Machine acquired from original (now deceased owner) and appears in great shape, very clean. New owners not trained well, mostly homeowner experience but pretty handy. It came with the original clutch motor and they did a perfect job installing a servo. Couldn't handle the clutch speed, although they did get it to sew a few practice seams, then jammed it up and couldn't get it to work again. They called me.

• The safety clutch was engaged, but the shaft going from clutch to hook is chewed up like someone struggled with getting it re-engaged and used a pipe wrench on it.  First clue.
• Timing check - when the needle rise was 1.75mm the hook point was an inch past the needle. Something moved it way off. Not sure my friends wanted to tell me what all they had done.
• Timed by opening the gear box and following timing directions, making sure gears meshed properly. The grease in the box was hardly used. Thought I tightened all the screws adequately.
• Had to move the needle bar to line up the scarf and eye with the hook point, again after 1.75 mm rise.
• Needle to hook distance was good. It wanted to stitch, but constant looping on the back. The case opener was not set properly and the upper thread didn't have smooth flow coming around the hook, thus putting a couple extra tugs on the needle thread - adjusted that.
• Tensions adjusted well, stitches looked good. Feeling triumphant, went to backstitch using the reverse lever and under power. Bang!!!   Immediately broke a needle on first motion. The safety clutch kicked out, needle bar moved, reset the clutch and found the timing way off, as bad as before.

All this work was in the friends' shop.  We agreed to take it to my shop where I can work and focus. I love visiting with them and we BS too much, and I try too hard to educate them while I'm working! Have not and will not work on it until I have it at my place.

A few thoughts:

• I've watched all the Uwe Grosse videos and have read most of the threads on here I can chase down, but still feel like I need A to Z timing advice in sequence.
• The needle breaking when trying to reverse, when all seemed well really bothers me. This was just on two layers of denim. My upholstery friend with a nearly identical Chandler hits reverse for backstitching while in motion all the time.
• Just don't know what happened, I did not check the needle guard yet or earlier in the process. Could the needle have hit that - like when going forward it is too snug to the needle, so when reversing it the needle strikes? Maybe. We are using new 134 needles.
• I wish I knew the story on the pipe wrench marks on the main shaft, but won't ever know.  Previous owner was making horse blankets and pads. The needle bar seems to get out of adjustment too easily, even with the screws pretty tight. Thinking about roughening up the tips of those screws for a little better grip.
• Really wondering what is loose and allowing timing to change - is the safety clutch supposed to do it's job before anything else gets damaged? Is it adjustable? There are a number of large allen-headed screws on the clutch pieces left and right - but this is where the manuals I have and web videos fall short.
• I'm certain that I got the gearbox set screws tightened properly when I did adjust the timing before. Even so, when the timing changed is that what slipped. Right now, if I go to correct the timing that is where I would do it again.
• I got the clutch re-engaged  with hand power only. Are there alignment marks and can it be engaged 180 degrees out of whack?  Is there a wrong way to re-engage?
• What have I left out or not paid attention to?

Thanks everyone. I'm a little desperate here. Friends think I'm an expert, but that may be changing........

 

 

 

[Wyowally]

Starting to think the safety clutch is too tight and not turning loose when it should. If that's the case, I wonder what slips or moves, like needlebar settings, hook drive gears, etc. ?

 

[shoepatcher]

Safety clutch adjusted with Allen wrench as to when it disengages.   check that it is not to  tight so it disengages to quickly.

[Wyowally]

11 hours ago, shoepatcher said:

Safety clutch adjusted with Allen wrench as to when it disengages.   check that it is not to  tight so it disengages to quickly.

I have not seen the adjustment in illustrations on this one.   It consists of two mated pieces  held onto each shaft by two large allen head setscrews each. There are two spring loaded balls engaged when running. Uwe Grosse' video "Adler 67 Safety Clutch and Hook Timing" shows one at 37 seconds in just like this one. His has 4 slotted head screws, mine are allen.  No obvious adjustment possibilities.

[Quade]

I haven't read the manual on this one.  When you re-engage the safety clutch have you verified the timing marks (if any)?  I'm wondering if it's re-engaging on a different spot on the gear. 

The shaft that drives both the feed dogs and the needle bar rocker is driven by an eccentric on the upper shaft.  The eccentric seems to rock back and forth driving the stitch length and reverse mechanism which then moves the feed dog and needle rocker shaft.  So hook timing isn't connected directly to feed dog timing like it is in a SInger 211.  Meaning hook timing can go off from the clutch mechanism and not impact the feed dog or needle rocking position timing. 

Considering the condition of the lower shaft, I might make sure the clutch set screws are actually set inside any shaft cutouts.   You just can't tell if someone tried adjusting hook timing by loosening the clutch set screws and turning the shaft.  If it's not in the cutout, any jarring might make the shaft slip inside the clutch.  Maybe the same check for the gear that drives the hook.   I just don't believe you can assume anything when it comes to a machine that looks kinda boogered up.  Might be worth painting some timing marks on the shaft/clutch and shaft/hook gear then if it breaks and goes off again, see if the shaft slipped. 

 

[Wyowally]

Quade and Glenn, thanks for your input.  I have it working very well right now - but still puzzled. Quade, I think your suspicions about the clutch components slipping on the shafts and cutouts may be correct and I'll check that today. Not sure about flats or cutouts and want to know.  I think in order for things to get out of time and needlebar height change there had to be some force involved that setscrews couldn't hold back.  

I started at the belt pulley and made sure screws and setscrews were tight. Before, I had re-engaged the clutch, but it had taken more force than I thought it should. I loosened but didn't back off all four setscrews in the two clutch components and oiled the balls and mating surfaces thoroughly.  Then just snugged the screws and forced disengaging and engaging and spun the two around a number of times. Tightened the screws and did the same. It works much better . Don't know if there is a torque spec, but it seems reasonable now.

Went on towards the hook, making sure screws were tight and lateral movement was proper.  Popped the gearbox cover knowing timing was way off. Discovered too much backlash movement in the hook gear. Timed it for hook needle alignment with needlebar 1.75mm rise, then made sure shaft to hook gear backlash was minimized without binding. Re-set the needlebar height to specs. I wonder if the tips of those screws don't get smoothed and hardened after several cycles of jamming, needle breakage, etc. I'll check that.

Made sure the case opener had proper clearance when moved to the right. It was a little too fine, not quite the gap it should show for heavier thread. Sewed perfectly after all this. I still want to know more about what can happen if the clutch doesn't turn loose when it should - but I'm pretty sure I may not ever. For now the previous owners, Bubba and his pipe wrench, thread jams and broken needles are all likely suspects in causing the timing changes I discovered. If I make any discoveries after checking the shafts for cutouts I will let you know!

 

[shoepatcher]

ok  I had worked with 267 machines.  Sorry

glenn

[Uwe]

The safety clutch on the Adler 67  engages in only one position during the 360˚ rotation, so it’s not possible to engage the cluitch at the wrong 180˚ position. 

My Adler 67 hook timing video show the operation of the clutch starting at the 1:50 mark. 

 

At the 2:02 mark you can see the hole opposite the ball appearing in the outer hole of shell of the clutch. In this position, you can adjust the set screw inside the clutch to adjust spring pressure on the ball. This will adjust the force necessary to pop, or dis-engage, the clutch.

[Quade]

Quote

The safety clutch on the Adler 67  engages in only one position during the 360˚ rotation, so it’s not possible to engage the cluitch at the wrong 180˚ position.

I was wondering about that. 

Quote

 Not sure about flats or cutouts and want to know.  I think in order for things to get out of time and needlebar height change there had to be some force involved that setscrews couldn't hold back.  

On the machines I've taken apart, the manufacturers machined the shafts to have flats and somethings recesses that the set screws are supposed to ride in.  If you follow their guidance, it's nearly impossible to install say a clutch or the hook gear in the wrong orientation.  For example on my 211, the lower gear has a groove in the shaft that one of the clutch set screws sits in.   There's two set screws so you need to note which one goes in the groove before you take it apart.  With the set screw in the groove, even if it came a little loose, the clutch would still be held in the correct position.  The hook gear side of the shaft has a recess that one of the set screws, the longer one goes down into.    It's like a keyway on a crankshaft that keeps the crank pulley in the correct position on your car. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Quade

[Wyowally]

I studied this clutch in depth today. 

What I found:

• Both shafts have a flat that one of the pair of set screws is designed to engage. I found no marks or information that told me which screw of the pair to engage the flat with. The four screws are identical. Looking at the clutch and rotating, I put the screw in the upper hole when the other one is exposed below it, on both sides. What I found for adjustment is a screw visible through one of the holes in the outer collar when it is disengaged!! I was able to adjust. Although there is huge potential for changing the timing by selecting the wrong screw to engage the flat, either side, I got lucky and my installation didn't change timing. The timing must be checked for sure though, because it will change if the screws that engage the flats are changed around.

    It is working well, and I am pleased with the disengagement torque. The picture shows the adjustment screw visible through the outer collar - the hole is normally filled by the engagement ball, so if you start looking for any adjustment location while the clutch is engaged (like I did) you wont find anything. I never found a book or manual reference showing exactly this.

[DonInReno]

You’re getting a lot of practice with these things!

I thought those socket headed cap screws looked out of place - I wonder if the  original screws were buggered up and someone retapped the holes?   Normal bolts, even high strength bolts, aren’t nearly as hard on the tips as set screws, especially sewing machine set screws.

Maybe you said this already and I’m missing it, but have you checked the set screw that holds the hook on its shaft to make sure it’s in its groove?

Often, the various set screws all set in grooves or flats except in one spot that’s for the designated hook adjustment.  I haven’t looked at a manual for this machine, but it is good to know that you aren’t trying to set hook timing in the wrong set of screws.   It’s odd if there is a flat on the hook adjustment screws - defeats the purpose of adjustability.

I only linked this video because it shows the lower guts.

 

[Wyowally]

Don, thanks!  I also thought the socket head screws seemed out of place. I might pull one and check the thread pitch and type just for curiosity. I try to get all the original adjustment info I can, but still rely heavily on you, Uwe, Constabulary and others. I had my upholstery buddy come over and test run this one with various materials, speeds, forward/reverse shifts and all. He gave it his seal of approval. It is fun to watch a pro!

[DonInReno]

That awesome news - should be a solid machine!