Buying my first cylinder arm machine (clones of juki 341/1341/441)

[bozhevillya]

Hello fellow forum dwellers!

I know asking what machine to choose is the ultimate golden question here, but I’ve tried my best to do my homework regarding industrial sewing machines, figure out what I need, and narrow down the list to just a few models available to me.

To give you some background, I am a relative newbie to leather craft. I've been boxing for years and collect good boxing gloves (currently my collection is around 10 different premium pairs). Now I want to learn a new craft: how to create different types of boxing gloves from scratch.

Currently, for my projects, I use an old post-war Finnish Tikkakoski (a very good Singer 15 clone) which I restored and modified for leather sewing all by myself. It can sew through a few layers of 1.2–1.6mm soft leather, and sandwiches like velcro + leather + elastic bands. It does it very stably with zero missed stitches. The only downsides are that it is a flatbed, and the stitch length gets very short when the leather gets thick.

I’ve contacted a few leather glove manufacturers (single artisans like Richard from Barric Boxing), and they told me my best bet would be a cylinder arm machine, like a Juki 341 or its clones (he has Cobra class 26 exactly), with a flatbed attachment.

The catch is that the industrial machine market here in Ukraine is pretty rough right now. Almost no 341 or 441 machines are available, sellers just say that current demand for such kind of machines is nearly 1-2 per year. And what's worse, the top Chinese manufacturers like Typical, Highlead, or Zoje are mostly only present here as Pfaff 335 copies, or small cylinder arms like the Typical GC2603 (which I guess is an Adler 269 copy, right?).

I want to buy just one cylinder arm machine for all of my purposes -- starting from sewing 2-4 layers of soft 1-1.5mm leather together, up to sandwiches of 2mm leather with different glove paddings (EVA, foam, latex, horsehair) and doing it hassle-free. I want a "one-and-done" type of purchase. I am not scared of tinkering with a machine, but I want it to work most of the time as intended without constant headaches. I want something high quality that will genuinely outlast me.

My hard budget limit is $3,000.

From all the sellers I could find and contact locally, these are my only real options:

Viana VN-9341 (Juki 341 clone) https://angeli.net.ua/uk/viana-vn-9341-rukavna-shveina-mashina-z-potriinim-prosuvannyam The seller says this is made by the same manufacturer that builds Cowboy, AFG, and HighTex, but I have my doubts and can't verify it. The package contains the machine, table, and a Worlden WD-990JM 750W under-table servo motor, which they say can start as low as 100 RPM. There are also motor options like a Jack JK-563A 750W (min. 200 RPM), a Worlden 1000W (min. 100), or a Worlden 1500W (min. 100).
All together: ~$1,260

AFG 3200-420 (Juki 441 clone) https://angeli.net.ua/hightex-cowboy-viana-afg-3200-420-rukavnaya-shveinaya-mashina-s-troinym-prodvizheniem-dlya-sverhtyazhyolyh-materialov Yet again, the seller says this is just a rebranded Cowboy/Viana/HighTex machine. It is a massive 441-class machine, which I believe might be total overkill for boxing gloves, and I would likely need to tinker with it to "dumb it down" for lighter threads and materials. I do like tinkering with sewing machines though, they are fascinating to me. So.. doable.
Price: ~$2,230

Spartak ST-341D (Juki 341 clone) https://angeli.net.ua/uk/spartak-341-rukavnaya-shveinaya-mashina This is one of the cheapest 341 clones on our market. I don't know anything about the original manufacturer, though Gemini says it is manufactured by Zhejiang Xiangke Sewing Machine Co., Ltd. It comes with an integrated direct-drive 750W motor on the head, but it can only run as low as 200 RPM, which feels too fast for me. I also can't install a mechanical speed reducer due to the integrated motor design. It does come with a 3-year warranty, and the seller says he has sold them for 7 years without any problems, but who knows.
Price: ~$1,000

LONGSEW GA-441 (Juki 441 clone) https://amtex.com.ua/promyslova-shvejna-mashyna-dlya-nadvazhkyh-materialiv-longsew-ga-441/ Another 441 clone, way cheaper than the AFG one. It comes with the same full package (machine, table, servo), but I can't find any real independent information on the manufacturer or their build quality.
Price: $1,680

Highlead GC2698-2BZ (Pfaff 335 clone) https://sm-ua.com/ru/mashiny-s-rukavnoj-platformoj/highlead-gc2698-2bz-odnoigolnaya-mashina-s-rukavnoj-platformoj-trojnym-prodvizheniem-i-vstroennym-servomotorom This is the only variant of this machine here that does NOT come pre-setup as a binding machine; it has a standard 4-tact (ellipsoid) movement. Highlead is known here as one of the better Chinese manufacturers quality-wise, but I don't know if a Pfaff 335 clone has the capacity or foot lift to handle all the leather, padding, and liner sandwiches I am going to throw at it. It has an integrated 750W servo, so probably a 200 RPM minimum speed limit.
Price: $1,193

Typical GC2603 https://amtex.com.ua/ru/shvejnie_mashina_typical_gc2603/ Another great Chinese manufacturer, good package and a good price, but I'm not quite sure if this style of cylinder arm will get the job done for thick, bulky glove padding transitions.
Price: $930

Zoje 3410 (Juki 341 clone) The last, and probably the best clone option out of all of them, but.. it's completely unavailable anywhere. Just one seller said they could PROBABLY (not 100%) special order it for me with a 3-4 month wait time. If this was in stock right now, it would be an absolute no-brainer for me and I would buy it instantly.
Price: $1,340

Apart of your opinions on those options, I would also love to get your thoughts on a few things:

1. For highly dimensional \work like a boxing glove, does the Pfaff 335/Adler clones handle that kind of loft? And is a 441 just the completely wrong tool for this style of leatherwork?

2. If I go with an under-table servo like on the Viana to maintain stitch-by-stitch control on tight corners, what wattage handles low speeds best without stalling or cogging at 100 RPM? Should I stick to a standard 750W or step up to a 1000-1500W? As an option, I can also add an external needle positioner to it, but I`ve seen quite a few mixed opinions on it.

3. Has anyone ever actually encountered Viana or AFG badges? Is there any truth to them coming out of the same factories as Cowboy/HighTex, or is this just standard dealer talk?

Thanks in advance for any insights!

[friquant]

Interesting prospects!

You want to buy local, or are you willing to order abroad?

What is the maximum thickness you want to be able to sew, and what is its composition? (How many layers of leather vs how much thickness of padding). 

Do you need a small cylinder arm, or does the size of the cylinder not matter?

Do you need the needle to always be vertical, or is it okay if it changes angle through the sewing cycle? (Seems like there's a 1341 or something where the needle maintains its angle and therefore it stitches the same stitch lengths regardless of material thickness...rumor I heard)

32 minutes ago, bozhevillya said:

I’ve contacted a few leather glove manufacturers (single artisans like Richard from Barric Boxing), and they told me my best bet would be a cylinder arm machine, like a Juki 341 or its clones (he has Cobra class 26 exactly), with a flatbed attachment.

Isn't the cobra class 26 a Juki 246 clone? Are there things a Juki 246 clone will not do for you?

[bozhevillya]

24 minutes ago, friquant said:

Interesting prospects!

You want to buy local, or are you willing to order abroad?

What is the maximum thickness you want to be able to sew, and what is its composition? (How many layers of leather vs how much thickness of padding). 

Do you need a small cylinder arm, or does the size of the cylinder not matter?

Do you need the needle to always be vertical, or is it okay if it changes angle through the sewing cycle? (Seems like there's a 1341 or something where the needle maintains its angle and therefore it stitches the same stitch lengths regardless of material thickness...rumor I heard)

Isn't the cobra class 26 a Juki 246 clone? Are there things a Juki 246 clone will not do for you?

>You want to buy local, or are you willing to order abroad?
More likely -- only local. Because of state taxes and.. I`ve recently got burned badly by our post services and currently preparing to go court with them 😄

>What is the maximum thickness you want to be able to sew, and what is its composition? (How many layers of leather vs how much thickness of padding). 
Depends on the part of the glove. There definitely would be more thick parts with sandwiches like: side parts with exterior leather (2mm) -lining-welted seam (1-2mm) - lining- exterior leather (2mm), padding (https://www.instagram.com/p/DZVR_yHDXYi/), or places like cuffs where, ideally, I would need to sew right through padding to form things like a triple cuff:
https://barricboxing.com/cdn/shop/files/IMG_0286_ef36fcf6-1db0-41a6-aa74-1e312d20356c.jpg

>Do you need a small cylinder arm, or does the size of the cylinder not matter?
The ability to sew through thick materials and paddings, and be durable enough to withstand it for years of use -- this is what matters for me the most. I have doubts about Pfaff 335/Adler 69 clones regarding it. And I know for sure, that 341 machines are able to do that.

>Do you need the needle to always be vertical, or is it okay if it changes angle through the sewing cycle? (Seems like there's a 1341 or something where the needle maintains its angle and therefore it stitches the same stitch lengths regardless of material thickness...rumor I heard)
Never heard about things like this, but I need triple feed machine for sure.

>Isn't the cobra class 26 a Juki 246 clone? Are there things a Juki 246 clone will not do for you?
No, it is definitely a one of Juki 341 clones

Edited June 30 by bozhevillya

[friquant]

The materials in your photos are on the softer side, so your needs on the penetration front (and the thread tension front) are only moderate. But you need a lot of total thickness capability. There are two parts to total thickness capability: 1. The amount of presser foot lift, 2. The height of the needle point above the needle plate at top dead center. 

 

It sounds like you are wanting a 341. 

I made a review of a 341 clone here: https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/131750-review-of-jianglong-341-after-4-months/

I would avoid 441 clones for your use case because they are too big/heavy and needles are too long and flexible at the needle sizes you will be targeting.

[friquant]

1 hour ago, bozhevillya said:

If I go with an under-table servo like on the Viana to maintain stitch-by-stitch control on tight corners, what wattage handles low speeds best without stalling or cogging at 100 RPM? Should I stick to a standard 750W or step up to a 1000-1500W? As an option, I can also add an external needle positioner to it, but I`ve seen quite a few mixed opinions on it.

You will want to gear it down to get the appropriate speed. Once geared down, any of these motors will have plenty of torque for your needs. 

You can gear it down by pairing a 45mm motor pulley with an off-the-shelf 3:1 pulley reducer and the stock handwhee.

Alternatively, you can pair a 45mm motor pulley with an oversize pulley for the handwheel (240mm or 300mm).

[bozhevillya]

29 minutes ago, friquant said:

The materials in your photos are on the softer side, so your needs on the penetration front (and the thread tension front) are only moderate. But you need a lot of total thickness capability. There are two parts to total thickness capability: 1. The amount of presser foot lift, 2. The height of the needle point above the needle plate at top dead center. 

 

It sounds like you are wanting a 341. 

I made a review of a 341 clone here: https://leatherworker.net/forum/topic/131750-review-of-jianglong-341-after-4-months/

I would avoid 441 clones for your use case because they are too big/heavy and needles are too long and flexible at the needle sizes you will be targeting.

>The materials in your photos are on the softer side, so your needs on the penetration front (and the thread tension front) are only moderate.
Yes, but who knows, maybe I would also try to do some other leather stuff in the future, it is better to have some additional capacity.

> But you need a lot of total thickness capability. There are two parts to total thickness capability: 1. The amount of presser foot lift, 2. The height of the needle point above the needle plate at top dead center. 
Yes.

>I would avoid 441 clones for your use case because they are too big/heavy and needles are too long and flexible at the needle sizes you will be targeting.
Indeed, my main target are the 341 clones, but I currently keep up those 441 as options, because I don`t know, maybe those machines are made with higher QC, then presented 341 clones.

>I would avoid 441 clones for your use case because they are too big/heavy and needles are too long and flexible at the needle sizes you will be targeting.
Yes, it might be a problem, I`ve read about it before. But, I guess, people already worked around that, so.. it is possible?
 

27 minutes ago, friquant said:

You will want to gear it down to get the appropriate speed. Once geared down, any of these motors will have plenty of torque for your needs. 

You can gear it down by pairing a 45mm motor pulley with an off-the-shelf 3:1 pulley reducer and the stock handwhee.

Alternatively, you can pair a 45mm motor pulley with an oversize pulley for the handwheel (240mm or 300mm).

>You will want to gear it down to get the appropriate speed. Once geared down, any of these motors will have plenty of torque for your needs. 
So, it doesn`t matter which one to pick? Because I`ve seen a youtube video from a guy who have used exactly a WD-990JM 750W model (rebranded by Britex) and he had a problem with it on his flatbed machine using the lowest, 100 RPM, setting. He said that it was due to lesser torque at lower RPM, and that his machine probably needs more powerful motor to start and work smooth. Then he demonstrates that at 200 RPM it is indeed looks good and smooth, but works too fast for him.

>You can gear it down by pairing a 45mm motor pulley with an off-the-shelf 3:1 pulley reducer and the stock handwhee.
>Alternatively, you can pair a 45mm motor pulley with an oversize pulley for the handwheel (240mm or 300mm).
Where can I get such parts? And should I also get another drive belt for the different size of wheel/pulley?

[friquant]

20 minutes ago, bozhevillya said:

Yes, it might be a problem, I`ve read about it before. But, I guess, people already worked around that, so.. it is possible?

For $3000 total you can buy both a 341 clone and a 441 clone 😉

Yes a 441 will sew through anything, but hole size matters, and needle availability (especially leather point needles for thin sizes) gives much less selection. For beautiful stitches in thin leather I expect you will want lots of choices regarding needle size and needle point style. These are readily available in the needle system 135x16 that the 341 machines, but NOT readily available in needle system 7x4 that the 441 machines use. 

 

23 minutes ago, bozhevillya said:

>You will want to gear it down to get the appropriate speed. Once geared down, any of these motors will have plenty of torque for your needs. 
So, it doesn`t matter which one to pick? Because I`ve seen a youtube video from a guy who have used exactly a WD-990JM 750W model (rebranded by Britex) and he had a problem with it on his flatbed machine using the lowest, 100 RPM, setting. He said that it was due to lesser torque at lower RPM, and that his machine probably needs more powerful motor to start and work smooth. Then he demonstrates that at 200 RPM it is indeed looks good and smooth, but works too fast for him.

A true servo motor is expected to have its peak torque extend all the way down to zero speed. Watch out for inexpensive servo motors that advertise a 100rpm minimum speed. (or at least buy it with a return policy.) The one I had like that had considerable jitter at its lowest speed, but seemed more or less fine at 200rpm and above. It still use that motor, but the jitter is odd so I recommend it with hesitation. 

 

29 minutes ago, bozhevillya said:

>You can gear it down by pairing a 45mm motor pulley with an off-the-shelf 3:1 pulley reducer and the stock handwhee.
>Alternatively, you can pair a 45mm motor pulley with an oversize pulley for the handwheel (240mm or 300mm).
Where can I get such parts? And should I also get another drive belt for the different size of wheel/pulley?

Here are some of the ones I have used:

This 45mm pulley is a style available from multiple online retailers. You can get it a little cheaper if you buy multiples

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ42TGY?th=1

 

 

 

 

 

This large (240mm) pulley works well, though I wish it had smoother edges for my hands.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GASCQ8

 

You might also try a triac motor (aka "brushed servo") with speed reduction. See https://leatherworker.net/forum/blogs/entry/514-choosing-a-motor-for-your-industrial-sewing-machine/

 

[bozhevillya]

7 minutes ago, friquant said:

For $3000 total you can buy both a 341 clone and a 441 clone 😉

Yes a 441 will sew through anything, but hole size matters, and needle availability (especially leather point needles for thin sizes) gives much less selection. For beautiful stitches in thin leather I expect you will want lots of choices regarding needle size and needle point style. These are readily available in the needle system 135x16 that the 341 machines, but NOT readily available in needle system 7x4 that the 441 machines use. 

 

A true servo motor is expected to have its peak torque extend all the way down to zero speed. Watch out for inexpensive servo motors that advertise a 100rpm minimum speed. (or at least buy it with a return policy.) The one I had like that had considerable jitter at its lowest speed, but seemed more or less fine at 200rpm and above. It still use that motor, but the jitter is odd so I recommend it with hesitation. 

 

Here are some of the ones I have used:

This 45mm pulley is a style available from multiple online retailers. You can get it a little cheaper if you buy multiples

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ42TGY?th=1

 

 

 

 

 

This large (240mm) pulley works well, though I wish it had smoother edges for my hands.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GASCQ8

 

You might also try a triac motor (aka "brushed servo") with speed reduction. See https://leatherworker.net/forum/blogs/entry/514-choosing-a-motor-for-your-industrial-sewing-machine/

 

> For $3000 total you can buy both a 341 clone and a 441 clone
Yes, but I definitely don`t have enough space for two machines right now

>Yes a 441 will sew through anything, but hole size matters, and needle availability (especially leather point needles for thin sizes) gives much less selection. For beautiful stitches in thin leather I expect you will want lots of choices regarding needle size and needle point style. These are readily available in the needle system 135x16 that the 341 machines, but NOT readily available in needle system 7x4 that the 441 machines use. 
Actually, a very good point.

>A true servo motor is expected to have its peak torque extend all the way down to zero speed. Watch out for inexpensive servo motors that advertise a 100rpm minimum speed. (or at least buy it with a return policy.) The one I had like that had considerable jitter at its lowest speed, but seemed more or less fine at 200rpm and above. It still use that motor, but the jitter is odd so I recommend it with hesitation. 
Eh.. yeah, I would love to get something better, but all other options stated as starting point = 200rpm. And the best one I could PROBABLY get (availability on website =/= availability in real life, already learned that while lurking for the machines :D) are some Jack and Zoje models. Gemini rates Worlden WD-990JM 750W as budget-to-middle option. But since the 750w servomotor is a part of the deal, I can get a replacement for it later. For now, the main question is getting a good quality clone, and I`m heavily hesitating between aforementioned options..

>Here are some of the ones I have used:
Sadly, but Amazon doesn`t ship down here.. But I would try my best to find something similar through the local sellers and Aliexpress.
Regarding my question about changing the drive belt -- am I getting it right?

[friquant]

15 minutes ago, bozhevillya said:

Regarding my question about changing the drive belt -- am I getting it right?

Yes you will need a different circumference drive belt to match the different diameter pulleys.

[friquant]

21 minutes ago, bozhevillya said:

For now, the main question is getting a good quality clone, and I`m heavily hesitating between aforementioned options..

I think you could restate your question to "What's the best 341 clone that I can get in Europe"