tree fitting... I know, I know

[jdalberta1]

OK from the start I like to thank everyone on this forum who has constructively shared their experience concerning leatherworking and specifically saddlemaking. As a newbie to the intracacies of saddle design and repair the information I`ve gleaned from this site is invaluable.

The horse I was riding last summer and am hoping to buy soon is a 16h quarter horse gelding on the wide side. The saddle that his owner and I use is 7 1/2" wide at the gullet, 93 degree, 22 1/2" bar moderate production quality, ralide tree...say no more. It seems to fit him OK given how wide he is at the withers.

If I buy him I`ll be looking for my own saddle for him. I`ve got a 1960`s better quality Textan that I`m part way through restoring. Without having tried it on him yet my gut tells me it`s too tight up front at 6 1/2" wide. Lacking sufficient flare up front and too steep in the rear bars. The skirts have been removed so that new shearling can be installed and I`ll check the tree fit next week when I go visit him at his winter pasture. In Stolman`s books mention is made of skived stripes placed between treebars and skirting. This is of course a less than ideal "fix"... a way of using a saddle who`s tree does not in and of itself fit properly. I`m probably going to catch hell for this but what the hell if it works? Just so long as it takes into account and doesn`t wreck the rock, twist, bar angle, relief ect. Thoughts?? Any body tried this??

I`ve heard that quarter horse conformation has changed significantly since the sixty`s as a result of breeding;Doc Bar et al. I`d be interested in finding out more about this since so many folks still use saddle from that era.

There is one saddlery in my area that offers a saddle fitting service which uses plastic/fiberglass vacuum molds of the various tree designs that their production saddle maker use. The molds conform very closely if not exactly to the shape of the underside of the tree. I pulled their stack of molds apart and went through them and kinda liked the concept. Allowing for proper skirt blocking, shearling thickness, lack of saddle mass etc this mold idea initially seems to be a reasonable means of actually visualizing how various shapes of trees fit on any horse. Now yeah I have to allow that right now he`s out of condition, fat, winter coated, not moving and not under saddle but at least this way there`s a point of reference that even I can understand.

I like the concept of Dennis Lane`s system but as a end user not yet savvy to the highly contentious and involved craft of saddle fitting I`m looking for way to set myself and my horse up for success as they say. Down the road if we work out and grow as a team then I`d likely invest in a custom saddle.

[mulefool]

If you are wondering if there is a way to use the shim idea from Stohlmans book on the 6 1/2" gullet saddle, I don't think that would work too well. If the saddle is too narrow I don't think there will be much you could do about that.

Are the molds that your local saddle shop actually trees? it seems like they could just use a bare tree to do the same thing. If you are thinking of getting one of their saddles that might be a good way to go.

As far as the Dennis Lane cards, they're really straight forward and easy to use, however you would need to go to a saddlemaker or treemaker that understands how they work I think. Chris

[Hidemechanic]

JD,

we're a few weeks old now, not sure if you made a decision, but my suggestion is to look for another horse. Not sure what kind of riding you are doing either.

I have seen so many people with saddle fit problems and the fit issue, the majority of the time, comes down to the horse not having the typical build that most commercial saddles are designed for.

I know, it's easy to get attached quickly to the horses we ride, but that attachment has to, IMO, include the well being and comfort of the horse. I (and many on this board)am constantly explaining to people that the saddle that they need for their horse just isn't out there. Their major choices are, have a saddle made that later may not fit other horses, and find a horse with a well conformed back that will accept more of the commercial saddles.

My main thing with people in your situation with a big shouldered horse is finding something that almost fits, and trying to make due. The horse may not tell you but it will hurt at some point. I'm sure you want him to be comfortable when you ride him.

Wish you luck

[mulefool]

That brings up an interesting point. About 30 years ago when I was just learning to build saddles I had an opportunity to talk with Jerry Holes. I asked a question about hard to fit horses and he said if he had one that was hard to fit he'd get rid of it. I was alittle taken aback at the time, but over the years I have come to see the wisdom of those words. When I was starting out I built some saddles for these kinds of horses and in retrospect I wish I hadn't.

That said, we all have our blind spots. I love mules and they mostly aren't blessed with the perfect back to hold a saddle. Chris

[Traveller]

I have a hard to fit horse (big shoulders, halter bred quarter horse build) and if I'd known what I was doing, I wouldn't have bought him, based on that fact alone. But now that I've had him for four years, I'm kind of stuck. I like the horse -- he's got a great temperament, so long as the saddle fits -- and I feel a sense of responsibility for him. Which means I have to find a saddle to fit him. Or the next person would have to. So somebody's got to, and I guess that person is me.

Funny thing is, when I bought him, I thought he had an uncomplicated back. It still doesn't look bad, until you get to those shoulders (I've attached a recent photo that shows how big they are).

I agree with Hidemechanic -- you don't own the horse yet and there are lots of good horses out there at reasonable prices with backs that won't make you crazy, or cost you a fortune.

[bruce johnson]

Joanne,

Has anyone got a chance to put some of Dennis' cards on him yet? Photo angles and shadows make it hard for me to really tell things sometimes.

[mulefool]

Looking at that back doesn't look bad to me either. Maybe I'm off, but his shoulders just don't seem that big in the photo. It would be interesting to get some of Dennis's cards on him. Chris

[Traveller]

Ron Stolp has some cards and is going to come by to measure him up but so far we haven't been able to work out a time. I'm really looking forward to finding out how it turns out. In the meantime, a woman at my barn has an old Silver Supreme that Traveller's not objecting to (not yet, anyway!) so at least I'm able to ride. It's a short-term solution, though.

When Chuck Stormes looked at this photo, he seemed to think his shoulders looked more muscled up than the average horse.

I'll keep you all aprised -- thanks for checking in!

Joanne

[D.A. Kabatoff]

I was out to visit Joanne at the beginning of March this year and try a few trees on Traveller's back to see what kind of fitting issues might be present. With Joanne's permission I am posting some photos I took at the time. The first photo shows where there is a significant difference over a typical back. I have used a yellow circle to show for lack of better terminology the "lump" present on both sides of the withers. The vertical yellow line gives an estimation of where the bar tips of various trees were digging into the lumps. The lumps are approximately 7"s in diameter at the base and protrude outwards over an inch at the center. As seen from the photo taken from behind the horse, the lump on the left is more prominent than the one on the right side.

I tried three different trees I happened to have on hand that came from three different makers. All three were deemed 90 degree bars with 4" handhole widths by their makers and I believe two of them would have been appropriate for this horse had the tip of the bars not been pressing into the lumps. As you can see from the photos, all three were digging in at roughly the same point and in my estimation would cause discomfort to the horse. I have never seen such a problem and would be curious if anyone else has and what possible options Joanne might have for fitting this horse. As she stated above, she likes this horse for various reasons and doesn't necessarily want to pass the fitting issues off to someone else. Short of finding something used that might work, an obvious concern would be, in the future, spending the money on a handmade tree and custom saddle, only to be disappointed with the results.

Darc

[greg gomersall]

Darcy is the horse standing square in the first photo? if he is he is alot higher in the croup than anywhere else on his back and anything you put on him is gonna run forward into the shoulders. In the second photo the protruding tissue looks considerably larger on the near side over the off. Greg

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hi Greg,

The ground was quite level where the photos were taken and although I can't say i'm 100 percent sure about the horse being square, Joanne was squaring him up for photos so there's a pretty good chance he was standing square in all the above photos.

Darc

[bruce johnson]

Darcy and Joanne,

Thanks for the new pictures and a frame of reference. Looking back on the pictures from December with him outside, he does not look as downhill as the new ones. I am with Greg's question here - is he standing up square? The pics from the other day looking down his back with the tape I thought he looked asymetric, but it appeared maybe atrophied on the right side. It now looks like from these views the larger bulge on the left side is making it look that way. Any idea how long these swellings have been there and how much they are progressing or staying about the same? I sure didn't pick them out on the earlier pictures, but if they are an issue now and it would be interesting to get a feel for their progression. Any old pics of when you got him?

Any kind of exam ever been done on him? Did the physiotherapist who worked on him have any thoughts on these swellings? Has anyone else looked at him? Interesting, interesting.

[D.A. Kabatoff]

Hi Bruce,

I've posted another photo that was taken a second or two before the 2nd photo in my above post. I would say it is safe to assume that Traveller was standing completely square in both photos. The left side (near side)lump definitly was more noticably prominent than the right side (off side), this I am sure; I think my wifes finger hides this fact a little in this photo. While the ground in the barn seemed as level as could be, neither myself or my wife remember Traveller being as downhill as he appears in the first photo. This isn't to say he wasn't downhill at all, but that photo sure seems to overemphasize the notion. Perhaps Joanne could give a more realistic view on that as I have only seen the horse once. I don't have any knowledge as to the history of the lumps although it seems to me she mentioned that she didn't believe they were caused by any sort of trauma.

Darc

[greg gomersall]

Darcy if this horse is as downhill as the top photo seems to show was there considerable bridging when you set the varios trees on him? Greg

[Echo4V]

This may not work but I think it would be worth a try...

Try a saddle with gaited horse bars on him. Also, I think I heard that wade bars flare at the front (similar to gaited horse bars) so maybe that would work to keep them from digging into his "lumps"

If you are not needing to rope you could try a plantation saddle ( one of the older ones with a hard seat not the suspended seat). The reason I say that is they have the flare to the front of the bars but they also were made to sit further back on the horse so would have less of a chance to dig in there also.

David

[mulefool]

That second set of pics sure makes the lump on the near side more obvious. I built a saddle for a customer many years ago and he was having a problem with it on a new horse he bought. I went out to look at the horse and it looked alot like this horse as far as being really built up on one side. I suggested he consult with a vet or chiropractor to see if there was something he could do to even the horse up. He worked on some specific exercises and has been riding the horse with no problem for about 10 years now.

It would be interesting to watch this horse travel.

Chris

[Traveller]

I'm sorry, jdalberta1, I seem to have hijacked your thread! My apologies. Hopefully though you can see how difficult it is to manage a horse with a hard-to-fit back. Not only is it virtually impossible to find an off-the-rack saddle that fits but, as Darc pointed out, I'm also hesitant to spend money on a custom saddle only to find that it doesn't fit either, regardless of how good the tree and saddle makers are. And when a saddle doesn't fit this horse, he lets me know about it... he'll do a whole lot for me, so long as it doesn't hurt. And I can't say I blame him for that!

Thanks for posting the pics, Darc. I've posted a couple more taken of him. The full side view is on what I hope is level ground and the one of his back with the stick bridging from his whithers to his croup was taken in the wash rack, so it may have a bit of a slope to it but at least it's a solid cement footing.

Traveller is definitely built downhill, though not extremely so; just your average quarter horse downhill build. As for his shoulder, the physio (amongst others) have noted that his left shoulder is bigger than his right. When she first worked on him, she noted that he was out in his left hip (can't remember precisely where), right shoulder and left neck. Since she's been working on him, his body has come more in line, though his neck, just below the poll and more on the left than the right, is still out.

I don't think the right side is atrophied, Bruce; I think it's more a case of the left side being more built-up. I had a vet out to check him his movement out but on that day, he didn't crank his head at all and she was very, very impressed with the way he moved. She said he moved better than most quarter horses she sees and that I should be very pleased with him. And I am... except not so much the next day when he went back to cranking his head again! (I've had his teeth done.)

My regular vet has seen him several times in the four years I've owned him and while she was the first to note the difference in his left and right shoulders, she's never expressed any concerns about his conformation (it was a different vet -- one who was already at the barn that day for other horses and whom I know has a good reputation for lameness issues -- who checked his movement out).

He travels well in a straight line and isn't inverted, though when lungeing to the left he has a tendency to crank his head around from time to time. The head cranking rarely happens under saddle, even when I do smaller circles, so rider support might make a difference (I ride with light contact, not cranked in). At the canter, he'll drop his shoulders a little in the corners, more when going to the right than to the left, though I can often help him pick them up and eventually, he'll manage to get around the corner without dropping.

I haven't had the physio out for a couple of months now but plan to do so when she's back in town next time. I also plan to start riding with an instructor who can hopefully help me straighten Trav's body out through riding exercises (gotta get a saddle for that to work out...).

Thanks again, everybody, for your input. And if anyone knows of a good, used saddle that might fit this horse, I'd be happy to try it out. I can pay shipping to Blaine, WA, so long as you don't mind if I send it back to you (at my cost, of course) should it not fit. In the meantime, there's an older Silver Supreme saddle at my barn that I'm able to borrow from time to time, and so far, it's not bothering him. It's not the best saddle to sit in and I can only use it when the woman who owns it isn't sitting in it herself, but at least I can ride. And that's great!

Joanne

[colttrainer]

Looking at those photo's I would think it would be best to figure out why he has developed in this way. No sense spending money on a saddle to fit him, only for the area to shrink at later date due to what ever reason or worse yet the other side bulk up the same way. I would think that the vet should be able to help figure this out. You may try contacting the previous owner if that is an option and see if they can give you a complete medical background (injuries etc.) this may help the vet come up with an answer.

[Saddlebag]

Is it just me or do those bars appear to be all of the same angle, just different style?

[Janice]

Hey Joanna, its Jan from yarrow.

My old mare in her later years was lookin alot like your guy.

I ended up borrowing Sara's treeless endurance , and went up the mountain.

The results were so impressive, I ordered one some time real soon after that.

Mares shoulders were completly free, she wasnt sore, I was compfy, it all just worked.

I am not a treeless fanatic, my reg saddles for my three horses now are: crates circle y and f.eamor.

Treeless is an alternate lifesyle, so to speak, but if you want to try mine, just come out for a ride here.

I do have an arena, or Rons indoor, and of course the trails. Just let me know.

This one was made buy Dana, of nickers saddlery.

[Traveller]

Thanks, Jan, I just might take you up on that! Good to hear from you.

Joanne

Hey Joanna, its Jan from yarrow.

My old mare in her later years was lookin alot like your guy.

I ended up borrowing Sara's treeless endurance , and went up the mountain.

The results were so impressive, I ordered one some time real soon after that.

Mares shoulders were completly free, she wasnt sore, I was compfy, it all just worked.

I am not a treeless fanatic, my reg saddles for my three horses now are: crates circle y and f.eamor.

Treeless is an alternate lifesyle, so to speak, but if you want to try mine, just come out for a ride here.

I do have an arena, or Rons indoor, and of course the trails. Just let me know.

This one was made buy Dana, of nickers saddlery.

[ccpowell]

This is my first time replying to a post on here, so apologies for mistakes up front- I am also not claiming expertise, just offering up my one experience. I am a Vet and a novice saddlemaker- I have built about a dozen saddles now, and one was custom made for a horse similar to yours. I purchased a mold that you heat up in the oven, and then fit to the horse when it is standing square (I can't remember the name- equifit or something like that). I then sent it to a tree maker, and had the tree made to fit the horse. The second and probably most important part of the equation was rigging position relative to the very long shoulder blades in such horses. I had read an article that Al Stohlman included in his first volume of saddlemaking encyclopedia pertaining to rigging position on long shouldered horses. In looking at your horse, his shoulder blades are pretty long. On the saddle I made for a similar horse, I had to make my rigging position forward of a full double to keep the bars just behind the tips of the shoulder blades in order to fit the horse. I used a three-way rigging plate, just to give the owner options should she use the saddle on other horses. It worked out well- fit the horse well and the owner was happy, but without considering rigging position as well as tree bar fit, I don't think I would have been so lucky. I just wanted to add to the discussion that it can be done, but also can be difficult, and expensive for a single horse. Anyway, for what it is worth, my two cents,

Chuck

Thanks, Jan, I just might take you up on that! Good to hear from you.

Joanne

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Chuck, Your post brings up a commonly stated and taught-as-fact point that we think is a fallacy – namely that rigging position will determine the position of a saddle on a horse. This is not to say that rigging position isn’t important. It is. But we disagree with the “rule” that the cinch has to a ) be in the “girth groove” behind the elbow and b ) be vertical or it will pull the saddle forward. Some horses do have a barrel (rib cage) shape that moves the cinch forward. Others don’t. So long as it is on and not behind the sternum, it doesn’t have to sit in any specific spot. But even if the cinch is slanted forward, it still won’t pull the saddle forward onto the shoulders unless the tree doesn’t fit the horse. Back to our spoons analogy – if the shape of the tree fits the shape of the horse, it will take a lot of pressure to move it out of position, just as it takes a comparatively high amount of pressure to disengage two teaspoons that are nestled together. And if the tree fits, you don’t need a real tight cinch to hold it in place anyway. On the other hand, a forward placed rigging will tend to pull the front bar tips down, restricting the movement of the shoulder blades. A rigging placed further back on these horses will lighten up the pressure on those front bar tips and give more shoulder relief and a better fit. At least that is our take on things.

The popularization of “the cinch has to hang vertical” rule has led to a lot of people placing their saddles too far forward and then tightening their breast collar accordingly. A forward rigging position will cause people to place their saddles further back and off the shoulder blades, but I would like to think there has to be better reasons behind rigging placement than that…

Edited April 24, 2009 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[ccpowell]

Well said- I agree that tree fit is by far the more important of the two regarding rigging position and the tree fit. I was only suggesting rigging position could also be an important factor with horses having very long shoulder blades. I have an additional question for the tree makers- when you use products such as the equimeasure (which is what I used in this instance) where do you place the front of it? I followed the instructions and placed it just behind the caudal and proximal end of the scapulas. On this mare, if I hadn't set the rigging position ahead of a full double, considering her shoulders and large barrel, the bar tips would have been a good twelve inches forward of the end of the scapulas, or the cinch would have had to shoot forward at about a 45 degree angle. This particular mare had a short back to go with long shoulder blades and a large barrel. It seems to me that the front of the bars would have had to be shaped much differently to set comfortably in the more forward position on her shoulders compared to if the tree was to set just behind her shoulders. I would love to hear more opinions on this- should the tree be on or behind the shoulders, or does this it matter one way or another? Some horses do seem more interested in bucking when something is on there shoulders, but this could have more to do with poor bar fit and uneven pressure than the fact that there is pressure on the shoulders. The mare I built the saddle for wouldn't even lope without bucking with several other saddles, and now goes comfortably even on a riding trip across several western states last summer- I readily admit this could be more due to the custom bars or even accident than my logic. I am anxiously awaiting more expertise and experience on this topic to expand my limited knowledge (admittedly anecdotal as well). Thank you for the experienced input, and I love these forums,

Chuck

Chuck, Your post brings up a commonly stated and taught-as-fact point that we think is a fallacy – namely that rigging position will determine the position of a saddle on a horse. This is not to say that rigging position isn't important. It is. But we disagree with the "rule" that the cinch has to a ) be in the "girth groove" behind the elbow and b ) be vertical or it will pull the saddle forward. Some horses do have a barrel (rib cage) shape that moves the cinch forward. Others don't. So long as it is on and not behind the sternum, it doesn't have to sit in any specific spot. But even if the cinch is slanted forward, it still won't pull the saddle forward onto the shoulders unless the tree doesn't fit the horse. Back to our spoons analogy – if the shape of the tree fits the shape of the horse, it will take a lot of pressure to move it out of position, just as it takes a comparatively high amount of pressure to disengage two teaspoons that are nestled together. And if the tree fits, you don't need a real tight cinch to hold it in place anyway. On the other hand, a forward placed rigging will tend to pull the front bar tips down, restricting the movement of the shoulder blades. A rigging placed further back on these horses will lighten up the pressure on those front bar tips and give more shoulder relief and a better fit. At least that is our take on things.

The popularization of "the cinch has to hang vertical" rule has led to a lot of people placing their saddles too far forward and then tightening their breast collar accordingly. A forward rigging position will cause people to place their saddles further back and off the shoulder blades, but I would like to think there has to be better reasons behind rigging placement than that…

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

And we agree rigging has a major effect on how a saddle fits as well. In our opinion it just doesn’t determine the position of the saddle position if the tree fits well.

We have had a few of the equimeasure type moulds sent to us. Ideally we would like it to include the back of the shoulder blades so we get the full idea of how the shoulder blades and the “wither pocket” area merge. If it starts behind the shoulders we miss an important part of the equation. (For example, see Traveller’s posts of her horse.) We also want to get the profile of everything that will be under the bar. The problem with most of the kits on the market is that they are too short for that. I believe you can pay extra to get enough to get a piece long enough to work for a western bar. They seem to have been made for the shorter English saddles originally. If we miss anything, we would miss the back two inches rather than the front 2 inches.

Chuck, your question about where the tree sits relative to the shoulders is an important and controversial one. I know it has been discussed before here (if you search this section and the section on trees you will see lots of interesting discussions on tree fit) but I wasn’t able to find one place it was well covered. So if you don’t mind (Denise changing to her moderator hat for a moment here) I will start a new thread on the topic for easier searchability in the future. I think it will be a good discussion.