Cost of materials for a saddle

[Denise]

In reading around the net, it is not uncommon to find people expecting to buy saddles for $350 to $500. The comment that really got to me was "If I get one for $1000.00, it better be custom fitted to my horse!" So that got me curious as to what kind of range of prices is there for materials for a saddle.

I looked around the net and you can get a tree for as little as $70.00. Even Ralides cost $85.00 and up. Production wood/rawhide was at $200.00 to $225.00, but that was an almost 2 year old price list. Hand made trees can go for $550.00 and up.

What about the leather? Hardware? Other costs?

Or maybe the question might be more easily answered if I just asked "What do you figure is the cost of materials in the saddles you build?"

[gary]

The costs here in the UK are higher as we either have to import quite a lot of the hardware and tree as there's not much choice or buy from specialist shops where prices are higher, for the same reason. Tax, postage, insurance and so on can really put the bill up.

I made my first stock saddle about 12 years ago, for my own horse, and the leather alone cost in the region of £250, plain wooden stirrups were about £50 a pair, and I managed to buy two worn-out saddles for £50 the pair for the Blevins buckles, rigging rings, conchos and some other odds and ends. Woven wool shearling was then about £10 a metre. I was lucky with the tree as I found a shop that was closing an the owner had a couple of trees that he had brought to the UK years before and had never used - one of them was a perfect fit and only cost me £15.

Then about 3 weeks (part-time) of work (which in the UK is currently about £5 per hour at minimum wage).

After I had been using it about a month, someone saw it and asked if I'd make them one - they expected to pay about £200. When I said that was impossible, they offered me £100 for the one I was using as it was 'second-hand'

I have been looking at costs recently and it would cost, in the UK in pounds sterling approximately what it would cost in the US in dollars (and it's about $1.65 to the pound at the moment).

There are quite a few cheap imports available here for under £100 so custom made stock saddles are a rarity.

Just my tuppence-worth.

Gary

[TTcustom]

I have yet to complete a saddle but I am headed that way. Collecting the bits and pieces. I am estimating that there will be about $1000 in materials with me buying everything retail. This doesn't include a labour estimate. I don't even think about it in economics terms because for me it will be about proving to myself I could make one and the pride and art in doing it.

Good question I am afraid to see what the answer will be. Just now i thought of other costs for me that are associated with building.

Edited December 23, 2009 by TTcustom

[bruce johnson]

Denise,

I figure in round numbers I have about $650 with monels and mohair cinch plus the cost of the tree and silver.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Denise, I won't even start a saddle unless I get $1,000 up front. That is with an allowance of $250 for a tree. If they want a better tree than Bowdens, the price goes up commensorate with the tree they pick. I usually use 2 full sides of Wickett and Craig Skirting leather ($300), a jumbo sheep skin ($75), Hardware and stirrups ($150), ($25) for latigo leather, misc. items like glue, stain, stitching thread, oil, tacs, and screws,rivets, ect.($100), conchos $100), And of course as they add on goodies like extra silver and so on the price escalates. My base saddles are now $2400. That leaves $1400 for labor, and if I charged a real wage for the time spent actually working on makeing the saddle, the price would be much higher, but; the market here just won't bear that.

Bondo Bob

[kseidel]

Denise,

About 1.5 years ago I re-calculated the actual cost that I have in building the average saddles that I make. I am on the high end of the price scale and therefore am using premium materials and supplies, and the cost is not important to me, only the quality. My actual cost was just over $1800! That does not include any silver or labor.... just leather, tree, woolskin, hardware, cement, nails, screws, stirrups, latigo, cinchas, oil, finish,.... everything that it takes to make each saddle finished and ready to ride.

I also calculated the least expensive that a saddle could be made thinking that I might offer a "production" model, and the least that I could figure was $750. That was using a Bowden tree, average woolskins, import hardware, and only 2 sides of lesser grade Hermann Oak skirting. With labor included, I decided that it was not proffitable to pursue.

Keith

[Steve Brewer]

Denise, it costs around 1200 for materials to build a saddle ,Thats making a ring rigged saddle.Add another side of skirting for a Flate plate or skirt rigged saddle and it goes up to 1400.

Steve

[Denise]

I know you guys are using good quality leather on your saddles, and most use 2 - 3 sides. If you were purchasing leather in North America (not necessarily from North America) what is the range of prices available? From what I read here the good stuff is $150 - $200 per side. If someone was looking for the lowest priced skirting, how much would that cost them? (Not including the lawyer's costs for the lawsuit filed when it tore during its first ride...)

[Johanna]

Denise,

I don't know how many $$$$ are in the parts of a saddle, but the average (working) leatherworker has about 15 grand in tools in the shop. It would be interesting to know how much in tools the average saddlemaker has in the shop, wouldn't it?

Johanna

[barra]

I just did an inventory for the removalists and came up with 30 grand in tools, machines, hardware, leather etc and that was being conservative as compiling it was doing my head in.

Barra

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I don't have a lot of machines, and I don't even wanna know!

Bondo Bob

[Russ]

Hey! No hijacking the thread topic!!!

I don't know how many $ are in the parts of a saddle, but the average (working) leatherworker has about 15 grand in tools in the shop. It would be interesting to know how much in tools the average saddlemaker has in the shop, wouldn't it?

Johanna

[Denise]

So, what is the range of cost for the leather for a saddle? I think we have a good idea here of the cost for a good quality hand made saddle. I'm still trying to figure out the minimum cost for materials for a saddle. How little can you pay for new leather, hardward, stirrups, etc. here in North America and still have a saddle at the end of it?

[ClayB]

Sometimes Tandy has their imported skirting on sale for less than $100 a side, I'm thinking as low as $80. It might not be the easiest to work with, but I don't think you're gonna have to lose sleep at night wondering if the saddle you made out of it is going to fall apart and you're going to get sued.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I know you guys are using good quality leather on your saddles, and most use 2 - 3 sides. If you were purchasing leather in North America (not necessarily from North America) what is the range of prices available? From what I read here the good stuff is $150 - $200 per side. If someone was looking for the lowest priced skirting, how much would that cost them? (Not including the lawyer's costs for the lawsuit filed when it tore during its first ride...)

Denise, some time ago, I gave that some thought and after considering the two, I came to this opinion, (remember opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one!) If I use premium quality leather like Wickett and Craig, I get more out of it. I basically can almost make a complete saddle out of 2 hides , not counting the stuff I make out of latigo, and the 10 oz. hide I have sitting around that I use for specific areas of a saddle, because it comes with no range marks, scars, brands and so on. Also, a good premium supplier , there a lot of them out there, I just happen to like W&C personally, will have their sides well inspected so that they are evenly gaged, and consistant throughout. No hard spots and so on. That will give you a good yield of usable leather. So if you pay say $150- $200 for a side of the good stuff, you will almost get as much usable leather as you get from three economy sides, because you will often find your self cutting around those brands, scars and areas that are either varying too much in thickness or have hardspots in them and cause you a lot of extra work and time to make a decent piece. And, by the way if you are the type that wants their product to be astetically pleasing,and be proud of your work (all the guys who I have seen on this sight do!) then consistancy is the only game in town. You might be able to save a $100 or so by using the cheap stuff, but; at the cost of your time and effort.

Bondo Bob

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

Denise,

I do not know if you started this topic to just get some discussion going or if you really wanted to know the cost of materials. If you want to know the cost's I put together an excell spreadsheet that I can email you.

When I calculated the costs of materials last Jan I was at just over 1500.00 in materials considering I would have to buy everything to start out. Keith is probably closer with his 1800.00

What most people do not think of are. First I use W&C leather I buy 3 sides there are times I can get by with 2, but what happens if you would have ordered 2 sides and could not get all parts out of the best parts of the hide, would you use a lesser quality part of the hide or order another hide and wait. Second Latigo leather. You only need at least 6 strings, but you have to buy a full hide to get those strings most might think spread the cost of the hide over all the strings you can cut out of it, but what if that takes years. That is not good buisness sense. The idea with the latigo is relevant to all other things needed like thread, glue, and nails etc.

Next things to consider is overhead costs. Taxes, lights, equipment wearing out.

I havnt done a assesment of my equipment yet for next year, but I would say I have over 40000 invested in my shop equipment and supplies.

I have to thank some of the other Saddlemakers for explaining this all to me years ago. When I just started I tried to just get my money back. Following this path burns you out and makes you put out crap that no one wants. You have to be in this to make a profit or it is not worth it. Noone goes to work 9 to 5 just for the hell of it. If that was the case there would be no need for min wage.

Ash

Edited December 24, 2009 by snakehorse saddler

[jwwright]

Denise........if I understand correctly, you were asking about material only costs. For materials only which includes, tree, skirting, latigo, woolskin, thread, hardware, glue, standard galv. bound wood stirrups, ..... I spend $1200 to $900. The difference is variable tree cost. JW

[Denise]

Ashley,

If you wouldn't mind, please e-mail me the sheet. Yes, I really do want to know the costs. A while back someone on here was seriously looking to build saddles for the cost conscious market, and I am wondering what the actual material costs would be if you really wanted to do that - plastic stirrups, synthetic wool, lowest cost leather. To my mind,the materials would still cost more than the $350.00 that seems to be the wanted price tag for a lot of people. (And no, I don't think you could make a living at that.) But when talking with people, I can tell them that a lot of makers have $1500+ in materials into a saddle, but then they say "Yah, but that's for top quality ones." I would like to know the bottom of the barrel price to give them that figure too. Then I can ask the question "If that is the minimum North American material costs, what quality of materials and workmanship do you think are in this $350.00 saddle?" It might make them think a little.

I am in full agreement that low cost is definitely not the best way to go. After all, our trees do cost a tiche more than $70.00. (And that was for wood and rawhide! Makes me wonder what kind of wood and what kind of rawhide. We have substantially more money into the costs of our trees than that selling price!) But for some businesses, using a weaker area of the hide isn't a problem so long as they make more $$ out of the end product. That is where the concern about safety and defective saddles comes in. Note: I am not talking about the people on this forum. People who are in any business just for the money are not likely to spend their time learning more about building things better, just about selling them better.

[Saddlebag]

Only saddle factories can afford to make half decent economy saddles as they get bulk prices on everything which we can't. They use machines to stamp and cut out the patterns which results in a great saving on labor.

[Cowboy Crafts Online]

Denise,

I will email you that spread sheet when I get home tonight. It is set up so you can enter prices for your various materials, then I had it do the calculations. So it will give you different prices for say a $70 tree vs a $500 tree. I also have it set up to figure a wholesale price and a retail price. I hope it works for you.

To add when I said make a profit I ment not make money just to make money. You need to keep quality high, but also pay the bills. Didnt want anyone to missunderstand me. Sometimes I type faster than I think and dont reread my posts.

Ash

[CLH]

Denise,

I will email you that spread sheet when I get home tonight. It is set up so you can enter prices for your various materials, then I had it do the calculations. So it will give you different prices for say a $70 tree vs a $500 tree. I also have it set up to figure a wholesale price and a retail price. I hope it works for you.

To add when I said make a profit I ment not make money just to make money. You need to keep quality high, but also pay the bills. Didnt want anyone to missunderstand me. Sometimes I type faster than I think and dont reread my posts.

Ash

Hello and Merry Christmas Ash, Would you please e-mail me the spread sheet to. M y address is haverty1@verizon.net thanks Clint Haverty

[kseidel]

Hey Ashley,

Would you mind sharing that spreadsheet with me as well? I have not taken the time to convert my ledger system to Excel yet, and I would like to see how you have your costs broken down as well.

Thank you,

Keith

[kseidel]

Ashley,

If you wouldn't mind, please e-mail me the sheet. Yes, I really do want to know the costs. A while back someone on here was seriously looking to build saddles for the cost conscious market, and I am wondering what the actual material costs would be if you really wanted to do that - plastic stirrups, synthetic wool, lowest cost leather. To my mind,the materials would still cost more than the $350.00 that seems to be the wanted price tag for a lot of people. (And no, I don't think you could make a living at that.) But when talking with people, I can tell them that a lot of makers have $1500+ in materials into a saddle, but then they say "Yah, but that's for top quality ones." I would like to know the bottom of the barrel price to give them that figure too. Then I can ask the question "If that is the minimum North American material costs, what quality of materials and workmanship do you think are in this $350.00 saddle?" It might make them think a little.

I am in full agreement that low cost is definitely not the best way to go. After all, our trees do cost a tiche more than $70.00. (And that was for wood and rawhide! Makes me wonder what kind of wood and what kind of rawhide. We have substantially more money into the costs of our trees than that selling price!) But for some businesses, using a weaker area of the hide isn't a problem so long as they make more $ out of the end product. That is where the concern about safety and defective saddles comes in. Note: I am not talking about the people on this forum. People who are in any business just for the money are not likely to spend their time learning more about building things better, just about selling them better.

Denise,

Your figure of $350 for the lowest material cost is probably fairly close if using imported goods, but that would be the bare minimum. Only a factory that is set up to mfg in quantity of identical saddles could achieve that figure. When the bean counters get involved, they figure everything down to the number of nails used. If they build 2000 saddles a year and can save $5 per saddle, that can be a substantial increase in profit. That is only possible under strict management, and high volume, using as much leather per hide as possible. Using the cheapest materials and not considering any quality, I believe it possible to get as low as the $200 range. These are the cheapest saddles usually made south of the border, but still in North America. Using only domestic US materials, It would be difficult to get below $300. Remember, even Hermann Oak makes a "utility" grade leather! However, a factory could get in this price range if necessary.

The labor and overhead would add to that price dramatically! I believe any saddles under $800 retail are loss leaders for other saddles in their line.

Keith

[gary]

Just as an aside, I'm not trying to divert or hijack the thread, but comments on bulk purchase made me think.

Some years ago (maybe ten or so) a friend of mine showed me an English dressage saddle and asked me to guess a retail price. The quality wasn't bad, on the surface, and I priced it out at about £125 - £150 each.

He was importing them by the container-load from somewhere in Asia and they cost him £35 each including shipping. He was making a nice profit on each one and there was no way anyone could compete with the price. Okay, there were some problems at the time such as leather quality but the makers started to use better leather, and I never saw a naked tree but, for the cost conscious it was a no-brainer.

Gary

[Denise]

With some behind the scenes help here, to the best of my ability I have figured that for an individual to purchase the lowest cost materials in North America (not necessarily originally from North America) to make a saddle, the cost would probably be around $380.00 US. That is plastic stirrups, fake shearling, etc. etc. For a really good quality saddle, the $1500 to $1800 figures given in earlier posts I am sure are more accurate. Gives me something to think about and base some opinions on when I see the range of prices in a tack store.