reuben cogburn Report post Posted April 7, 2010 (edited) I currently own a tippmann Boss, which has been my primary method of stitching. I need a second machine, and have located three Singer 29K73's.... A long arm in good shape and ready to sew... And two short arms.. One needs adjustment and the third needs a few parts.. All with treadle bases and extra parts, belts etc. A buddy and I, (who is also in the working in the leather biz), are thinking of picking them up. The price, seems quite reasonale at $500.00 for the lot. My question is more about reliability than anything. These are all metal machines and look rather bullet proof.... How are they at setting up and adjusting? I know that "Pilgrim" and "shoe systems", handles most parts... Anything else we should know?... or just dive in?.. I need to stay with manual machines for now... I live remote with limited electric and have space issues, so table top bolting works for me.... Any input or advice is much appreciated! Thanks y'all reuben... p.s. I usually use #236 in the Tippmann.... can the 29's handle thread this heavy?.... I know the machines can handle thick leather.... Most my holsters are 9 oz, and welts in the frame/trigger guard area... Edited April 7, 2010 by reuben cogburn Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted April 7, 2010 (edited) p.s. I usually use #236 in the Tippmann.... can the 29's handle thread this heavy?.... I know the machines can handle thick leather.... Most my holsters are 9 oz, and welts in the frame/trigger guard area... Rueben; The price is great for three Singer Patchers, especially the long arm model. However, there is something you need to know about their thread handling capacity. The machine was built like a tank, but is not designed to use anything larger than #138 (T135) bonded nylon, or 3 cord linen thread. You might be able to force it to use up to #207 on top, but not in the bobbin. If these machines all have the small bobbin (about the width of a dime x 3/16") you will have a hard time doing two belts or guitar straps with #138 in the bobbin. If the long arm patcher has a big bobbin, you're more able to complete large projects with one bobbin load. The large bobbin handles about 50% more thread, up to #138. The pressor foot lift is greater on the long arm patcher, maxing out at 5/16" capacity under the foot and teeth. The short arm models won't usually feed the much leather, maxing out just over 1/4". The stitch length varies with the thickness of the material, more so on the short arm machines. The long arm patcher can produce up to 5 spi, if the feed mechanism is still tight. The short arm patchers don't usually do better than 6 spi. Singer Patchers use system 29x3 or 29x4 needles, which are available in sizes up to #23. A long arm Singer, with a #23 needle will sew through 5/16" of leather using #138 thread, top and bottom. You may be able to trick out the long arm machine to let higher and sew #207 thread, but you will wear it out quickly. Patchers all feed from the top, via teeth under the pressor foot. Thick leather usually requires much more top spring pressure to avoid lifting, which causes skipped stitches. This extra pressure makes it harder to feed the work as you stitch. This usually reduces the stitch length and leave deep tooth marks along the stitch path, on either side of the needle. If you are looking to sew lots of holsters, with welts, I recommend a cylinder arm harness stitcher, such as those made by Cobra, Cowboy, or Adler. Bob Tovar, a member here and owner of Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines, sells used patchers and stocks parts and accessories for them. I buy my needles, bobbins, threading rods, thread and replacement parts from him, for my Singer 29K172 long arm - big bobbin patcher. Edited April 7, 2010 by Wizcrafts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reuben cogburn Report post Posted April 8, 2010 Thank you for all the valuable info... I'm not really looking to replace the Tippmann.. It does quite well... But I do need a backup. My Biggest holsters are about 9wt doubled for the seam, with a short welt.. personally I dislike welts.. I think they are a waste of time... However, I'm looking to expand into other area's and I do a lot of work with lighter leathers.. I'm relatively new at the commercial end of this, so please bare with me. I'm not familiar with the difference in sizes of thread..(actual diameter I can comprehend).... Would a 138 thread size be satisfactory for a holster?... See.. so many things I need to know... I am interested in getting into buckskinning and sewing garment weight material, as well as making moccosins and boots... So this machine should do well in that area(?) If you could provide me with a bit of education, I'd be most appreciative.... Regards... Reuben... Rueben; The price is great for three Singer Patchers, especially the long arm model. However, there is something you need to know about their thread handling capacity. The machine was built like a tank, but is not designed to use anything larger than #138 (T135) bonded nylon, or 3 cord linen thread. You might be able to force it to use up to #207 on top, but not in the bobbin. If these machines all have the small bobbin (about the width of a dime x 3/16") you will have a hard time doing two belts or guitar straps with #138 in the bobbin. If the long arm patcher has a big bobbin, you're more able to complete large projects with one bobbin load. The large bobbin handles about 50% more thread, up to #138. The pressor foot lift is greater on the long arm patcher, maxing out at 5/16" capacity under the foot and teeth. The short arm models won't usually feed the much leather, maxing out just over 1/4". The stitch length varies with the thickness of the material, more so on the short arm machines. The long arm patcher can produce up to 5 spi, if the feed mechanism is still tight. The short arm patchers don't usually do better than 6 spi. Singer Patchers use system 29x3 or 29x4 needles, which are available in sizes up to #23. A long arm Singer, with a #23 needle will sew through 5/16" of leather using #138 thread, top and bottom. You may be able to trick out the long arm machine to let higher and sew #207 thread, but you will wear it out quickly. Patchers all feed from the top, via teeth under the pressor foot. Thick leather usually requires much more top spring pressure to avoid lifting, which causes skipped stitches. This extra pressure makes it harder to feed the work as you stitch. This usually reduces the stitch length and leave deep tooth marks along the stitch path, on either side of the needle. If you are looking to sew lots of holsters, with welts, I recommend a cylinder arm harness stitcher, such as those made by Cobra, Cowboy, or Adler. Bob Tovar, a member here and owner of Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines, sells used patchers and stocks parts and accessories for them. I buy my needles, bobbins, threading rods, thread and replacement parts from him, for my Singer 29K172 long arm - big bobbin patcher. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trox Report post Posted April 8, 2010 I currently own a tippmann Boss, which has been my primary method of stitching. I need a second machine, and have located three Singer 29K73's.... A long arm in good shape and ready to sew... And two short arms.. One needs adjustment and the third needs a few parts.. All with treadle bases and extra parts, belts etc. A buddy and I, (who is also in the working in the leather biz), are thinking of picking them up. The price, seems quite reasonale at $500.00 for the lot. My question is more about reliability than anything. These are all metal machines and look rather bullet proof.... How are they at setting up and adjusting? I know that "Pilgrim" and "shoe systems", handles most parts... Anything else we should know?... or just dive in?.. I need to stay with manual machines for now... I live remote with limited electric and have space issues, so table top bolting works for me.... Any input or advice is much appreciated! Thanks y'all reuben... p.s. I usually use #236 in the Tippmann.... can the 29's handle thread this heavy?.... I know the machines can handle thick leather.... Most my holsters are 9 oz, and welts in the frame/trigger guard area... Hi! 29K-73 Is a long arm small bobbin (29k 72 is a long arm big bobbin) great machines made for over hundred years and still made today. For tricky jobs! spare parts no problem! Buy them! Trox Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted April 8, 2010 Thank you for all the valuable info... I'm not really looking to replace the Tippmann.. It does quite well... But I do need a backup. My Biggest holsters are about 9wt doubled for the seam, with a short welt.. personally I dislike welts.. I think they are a waste of time... However, I'm looking to expand into other area's and I do a lot of work with lighter leathers.. I'm relatively new at the commercial end of this, so please bare with me. I'm not familiar with the difference in sizes of thread..(actual diameter I can comprehend).... Would a 138 thread size be satisfactory for a holster?... See.. so many things I need to know... I am interested in getting into buckskinning and sewing garment weight material, as well as making moccosins and boots... So this machine should do well in that area(?) If you could provide me with a bit of education, I'd be most appreciative.... Regards... Reuben... To answer your question about thread, thread size 138 (22 pounds pull) is suitable for pancake holsters or other projects that are only two layers, not exceeding 18 ounces. It is too heavy for thin stuff, like vests, but is ok for coats and motorcycle jackets, chaps, etc. I use it on guitar straps, rifle slings and other items not more than 5/16" think. Once the work reached 3/8 inch you need to move up to #207 or 277 thread. For half inch, #277 or #346. #69 thread is a little heavier than home sewing thread and has an 11 pound pull strength. Most home machines can sew with #69, but not #138. #69 is good for leather garments, mocs, Naugahyde, drapes, jeans, etc. It is inadequate for holsters. Your Tippmann can sew with up to #346 nylon (I believe), and up to 3/4" thick. If your holsters have an 8-9 oz filler, that makes three layers, which exceeds the capacity of the patchers, so, stick with the Tippmann for your holsters, and thicker thread. BTW: Thread numbers doubling also means that the diameter doubles. So, using #69, the size of heavy fishline, as baseline, 69 =1x; 138 = 2x, 207 = 3x, 277 = 4x and 346 = 5x. When I sew with #138 thread I typically use a #22 or 23 leather point needle. Choose your needle size by threading a foot of thread through the eye, then hold it at an up/down diagonal angle. If the needle is right it will shimmy along downward. If it just drops, the needle may be too big and if it drags, too small. Keep in mind that the hole made by your needle must not only be big enough to carry the top thread, but to also form the knot inside the material. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougVL Report post Posted May 12, 2010 That's a great price! Take them! If you don't like them after you try one, you can probably resell all for a profit. But a 29K can be really handy and versatile. Doug I currently own a tippmann Boss, which has been my primary method of stitching. I need a second machine, and have located three Singer 29K73's.... A long arm in good shape and ready to sew... And two short arms.. One needs adjustment and the third needs a few parts.. All with treadle bases and extra parts, belts etc. A buddy and I, (who is also in the working in the leather biz), are thinking of picking them up. The price, seems quite reasonale at $500.00 for the lot. My question is more about reliability than anything. These are all metal machines and look rather bullet proof.... How are they at setting up and adjusting? I know that "Pilgrim" and "shoe systems", handles most parts... Anything else we should know?... or just dive in?.. I need to stay with manual machines for now... I live remote with limited electric and have space issues, so table top bolting works for me.... Any input or advice is much appreciated! Thanks y'all reuben... p.s. I usually use #236 in the Tippmann.... can the 29's handle thread this heavy?.... I know the machines can handle thick leather.... Most my holsters are 9 oz, and welts in the frame/trigger guard area... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
