Vinagrooned Leather Falling To Bits

[ukfossil]

Hi all

I make frogs for scaffolder here in the UK and have always been happy with

my stuff.

I have recently had some comebacks and with good reason

The leather I use is 4mm dyed through double butt veg

(yes I know I'd be better using chrome but the guys I sell to Like Black).

A while back I got hold of some cheap mexican undyed veg and vinagrooned them,

I was happy with the resulting colour but couldn't stand the smell so don't do that now.

I didn't keep record of what went where so I don't know if these comebacks are from the

Mexican batch.

Now have you seen this before?

Do you think its as a result of Vinagroon?

Do you think its the Mexican hides?

Do you think its a problem with finishing?

or do you think its a problem with abuse i.e. out in the rain, contact with chemicals, petrochems etc.

Thanks in advance if you can help. and I,ll answer everyone as soon as I can,

Mick

[Sovran81]

I dont know alot but those rivets look very 'aged'. Is this normal in your area?

[Spinner]

Based on the look of the rivets, this piece has been around for a little bit or very well used. If that's the case, judging by the look of the leather I'd say that the owner took very little or no time to care for the item (oiling, waxing, etc) and it simply dried out due to exposure to the elements & whatnot. I make a big deal of letting my clients know that real leather requires regular cleaning and oiling/dressing to ensure long life. Most are used to fake leather or chrome tan type leathers (aka jackets) that don't require much upkeep but also generally don't see as much use.

Chris

[ukfossil]

At the moment I'm leaning towards poor finish and abuse in use.

I estimate the frog is about 1 year old, the rivets are for strength rather than looks and

they soon look grubby but easily clean up if you need to

The main thing I'm looking to find out is if anyone has seen leather this bad and the cause

thanks again

Mick

[Art]

Was the acetic acid neutralized properly and thoroughly? If not, the results could be very similar, if it had a vinegar smell, them maybe that is the problem. Other than that, it looks like it was stored in very dry conditions for a long time and/or the oils were not replenished after the vinegarooning process. The copper rivets will tarnish in no time even under the best of conditions, if you really want them to look old and greenish, try ammonia; just a dab will do ya.

Art

At the moment I'm leaning towards poor finish and abuse in use.

I estimate the frog is about 1 year old, the rivets are for strength rather than looks and

they soon look grubby but easily clean up if you need to

The main thing I'm looking to find out is if anyone has seen leather this bad and the cause

thanks again

Mick

[ukfossil]

Hi, again

Art, I think you may have hit the nail on the head as I was just experimenting with the Vinagroon and Didn't neutralize thoroughly so

these pieces probably came from that batch, thanks for pointing that out.

Joe M and Spinner thanks for your input.

Hope you all have a good 2012.

Mick

[malabar]

Hi, again

Art, I think you may have hit the nail on the head as I was just experimenting with the Vinagroon and Didn't neutralize thoroughly so

these pieces probably came from that batch, thanks for pointing that out.

Joe M and Spinner thanks for your input.

Hope you all have a good 2012.

Mick

I don't know. I'm doubtful that is the result of vinegaroon. I don't have the expertise of many on these forums, but I've made dozens of holsters with vinegaroon, and have never seen anything like that. If it is a factor, then I'll bet there are other factors involved as well.

How many did you make and how many have come back falling apart?

tk

Edited January 5, 2012 by malabar

[ChuckBurrows]

I have had other reports of this happening with vinegar black on some Mexican hides, but only on them.

The other possibility is that if you "neutralized" with baking soda you did it too long and got alkali burn whihc can cause these symptoms as well.

FWIW - IMO far too many folks are trying to rush the process of making the vinegar black (note: the original recipe I have posted before takes a month) - if it smells strongly of "vinegar" then you have not used up all of the acetic acid, which is what smells. If you've still got a strong odor and all the iron is dissolved add more iron until it won't dissolve any more - at that point filter out the crap and then let the mix air a day or two to let any residual acid gas off. Acetic acid is very volatile and will gas off fairly quickly.

Lack of proper care also appears to be at least part of the problem, but then again the aging of the rivets is probably due to the residual acid. Ammonia can be good to age brass and copper but be aware that it can cause embrittlement of the metal if done too long.

[ukfossil]

Hi Again,

Malabar, I've sold about 50 of these frogs and the 2 in the pics are the only ones I've had returned as yet but I'm braced for

more looking at the state of these,

Most of the stuff I sell goes to guys working on Oil refineries or Power plants and do get abuse and are liable to contact

with chemicals but I pride myself on my gear being of good quality (one of the reasons I use saddlers rivets instead of tubular as many do)

and one of the reasons I need to get to the bottom of my problem.

I've seen some of my gear that's in daily use and standing up well.

Chuck, Glad to hear from you as I know when it comes to vinagroon your the man.

I,m very interested in your comment about Mexican hides and vinagroon, Hopefully this is the problem as I,m not likely to

get anymore Mexican. I would like to have another go with Vinagroon but next time I'll do more research and try to get it

right on test pieces before jumping in with stuff for sale.

I may try moving on to Heavy Chrome, I know that Claytons tanners in Chesterfield, Derbyshire UK (which is only 40 miles from me)

do a dyed through black chrome but weather its in my price range or not remains to be seen.

Thanks again to everyone for your input and I hope this thread can be of help to others.

Mick