Using Cores

[yuliya]

As I am waiting for the lace to arrive in the mail, I've been trying to figure out the rest of the pieces of the puzzle:-)

I have a couple of questions:

1) I want to make a 4 strand lead, but I want to put a core in it to prevent stretching and for extra strength. It seems that everyone says that kangaroo lace is very strong, but how strong is it without a core?

Considering that I want to make a show lead for myself for obedience and conformation rings, I want them to be relatively thin. For obedience, I don't need beads, but for conformation ring I would like to put the beads on. it seems that the largest beads I was able to find were with 5mm hole diameter. I have 30-40 lbs dogs and 80-100 lbs dog. What kind of core can I use to make a leash that is thin and strong to handle those dogs? Plus terriers are expected to spar in the ring and I've seen some dogs go bonkers and practically dangle on the end of the lead in the air:-) although my dogs will not do that, I still want to make sure that the leash can handle 40lb dog go crazy:-)

2) I think I understand how to braid around the core, but I can't figure out what to do with the core on the back braiding and how it suppose to prevent the stretching. Could someone please explain to me that?

Thank you all!

yuliya

[Sovran81]

1. This is just my assumptions concerning a core. A core will only give added strength if it is attached at both ends. The only way I know to attach at both ends would be to do an eye splice using twisted rope as your core. this will give you the strength end to end and keep the diameter from getting too big. The splice area will still be larger than the core but thinner and stronger than other methods of doubling the rope back on itself securely. In my braiding the core doesnt give strength, its only the foundation for the braid.

2. If you splice a ring in with the core, I would braid until you hit the ring then go through the ring, possibly switching to a flat braid through the ring then go back to a round braid back over the core for a few inches. Terminate then cover with a turk.

[yuliya]

1. This is just my assumptions concerning a core. A core will only give added strength if it is attached at both ends. The only way I know to attach at both ends would be to do an eye splice using twisted rope as your core. this will give you the strength end to end and keep the diameter from getting too big. The splice area will still be larger than the core but thinner and stronger than other methods of doubling the rope back on itself securely. In my braiding the core doesnt give strength, its only the foundation for the braid.

2. If you splice a ring in with the core, I would braid until you hit the ring then go through the ring, possibly switching to a flat braid through the ring then go back to a round braid back over the core for a few inches. Terminate then cover with a turk.

First of all, thank you very much for the response!

I've been reading and re-reading it over and over trying to make some sense out of it. I should probably draw a picture to make sure I understood it correctly, but I will try without it first.

Did I understand you correctly that I would make a leash out of just a core. I will make a loop for the handle and then I would make a much smaller loop that goes through the ring on the snap bolt, then will start braiding over it?

that creates a whole new set of questions:

1) if the core has no end where and how would you start braiding?

2) this means that the braided loop that goes through the ring of the snap bolt is pretty large to allow braiding through. Is this correct?

3) I was looking at this website for a while. If you look at this page: http://www.leashesbydesign.com/Information/FAQ/FAQ.html "section 3 - how many strands do I need?", it says that all the leashes are done with the core, but if you look at the pictures of her leashes, the loops over the snap bolt are really small. so I really wonder what she does with the core, or does it mean that in her designs the core doesn't really provide the extra strength?

For that matter, now that I think of it, none of the leashes I've seen have that visible loop through the snap bolt, except the one posted by "KnotHead" on this forum, that has a very visible loop through the bolt, but he said he didn't used the core ( it's in this thread: http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=38294)

Or maybe I just do not understand what you are suggesting.

[roo4u]

i used heavy harness sewing thread for my cores. i doubled the thread around the ring or snap. then i went ahead and tied my handle so that i just braided up and around ...the knot from tying the handle got covered by a combination of the braiding and the backbraiding. I did mine this way because you will lose some length in the core depending on the tightness of your braiding. my mom braided all our leashes and is so consistent that i was able to write the proper measurements for cores down and use that to set up as many of each size as i needed.

[yuliya]

i used heavy harness sewing thread for my cores. i doubled the thread around the ring or snap. then i went ahead and tied my handle so that i just braided up and around ...the knot from tying the handle got covered by a combination of the braiding and the backbraiding. I did mine this way because you will lose some length in the core depending on the tightness of your braiding. my mom braided all our leashes and is so consistent that i was able to write the proper measurements for cores down and use that to set up as many of each size as i needed.

Tracy,

but how did you handle the braiding around the snap? if your thread is doubled around the snap, then how do you braid around that core? I think I kind of getting the idea of the handle, I do not understand how to handle the snap. do you have any pictures of your leashes with the snap?

I really appreciate the advice, i am just not getting it:-(

thanks!

[roo4u]

i actually will have to take a picture of a leash to show you what im talking about...will try to do that tomorrow. i start my braid at the snap....so for a 24 inch leash i would start with 2 90 inch strands of roo pulled thru the snap to form 4 even strands...then braid is started just like normal....the two strands going thru the snap eye covered my core as the harness thread is fairly thin. plus i used black thread for dark leashes, tan for lighter colors and white for any leash that used white roo. hope that helps a bit more. leads with a ring are started the same way. now loop leads are an entirely different thing...i started mine in the middle of the core end product is more even that way.

i will drag out the camera tomorrow and try to snap a couple pics...

[woody2shoes]

Hi Yuliya, I am a complete newbie at making show leads so have been fishing around for all sorts of info too. I plan to use paracord as my lead cores. I think it's very strong from what I've heard and inexpensive to buy. Here's a tutorial I found on making a 4 strand round braided lead using a core. It shows how to finish the wrist strap. You may find it useful. I imagine you could start your core at the snap end the same way she does the wrist strap - whipping with waxed thread - then braid over the top of it. I would think that this would give the whole unit a lot of strength, especially if you then use kangaroo lacing and back braid well at the wrist strap. It's a simple design but I think it would like quite nice in the conformation ring too if you used fine lace and nice colours/beads.

http://myriam.dakotabraiding.com/Tutorials/Leash/Leash.html

Cheers.

[Vaquero1]

Hi Yuliya, i think you need the "braiding Bible".... Take a look at Bruce Grant´s enceclopedia of rawhide and leatherbraiding. there you will find nearly everything you need and wanted to know.

[Sovran81]

First of all, thank you very much for the response!

I've been reading and re-reading it over and over trying to make some sense out of it. I should probably draw a picture to make sure I understood it correctly, but I will try without it first.

Did I understand you correctly that I would make a leash out of just a core. I will make a loop for the handle and then I would make a much smaller loop that goes through the ring on the snap bolt, then will start braiding over it?

that creates a whole new set of questions:

1) if the core has no end where and how would you start braiding?

2) this means that the braided loop that goes through the ring of the snap bolt is pretty large to allow braiding through. Is this correct?

3) I was looking at this website for a while. If you look at this page: http://www.leashesby...on/FAQ/FAQ.html "section 3 - how many strands do I need?", it says that all the leashes are done with the core, but if you look at the pictures of her leashes, the loops over the snap bolt are really small. so I really wonder what she does with the core, or does it mean that in her designs the core doesn't really provide the extra strength?

For that matter, now that I think of it, none of the leashes I've seen have that visible loop through the snap bolt, except the one posted by "KnotHead" on this forum, that has a very visible loop through the bolt, but he said he didn't used the core ( it's in this thread: http://leatherworker...showtopic=38294)

Or maybe I just do not understand what you are suggesting.

Looking at the first link I believe the core doesnt go through the the ring, creating the weak point at the ring. This is what I meant by the core doesnt provide strength since its not attached to the ring. By transitioning to a flat braid when you go through the ring it will maintain a neat braided appearance. once through the ring transition back to a round braid and you will cover the "unfinished" back side of the first braid layer. Braid a few inches down and then terminate with a turk as shown in the second link.

To run the core through the ring and maintain the strength ( how big are your dogs? and arent show dogs trained to not pull? ) Use an eye splice like shown here.

There are better vids, this is just the first one I found that seemed to show how simple splicing is and explained about tapering the splice. Using this method I dont see why you couldnt just round braid the core and the splice through the ring then terminate where the core is spliced in. Then cover with a turk. or add the T braid that Brain showed in your second link. That pretty much covers the work end of the lead.

For the control end of the lead, I think i was still sleeping when I posted before. LOL I was thinking of a ring at both ends of the lead. Anyway it could be spliced in the same manner as the work end except with a larger eye and no ring. as to where to start the braid, since both ends double back on themselves around the splices I see your deliema. I would start at the control end splice working towards the loop then continue back towards the work end. This would cover the start of the strands. It may end up being neat enough to not require a turk to cover anything. The reason to start at this end is to have less strands to pull through the ring bolt when you get to the work end. I hope I have answered your questions and not confused you more. Finally I would listen to Brain first. He is the resident knot expert.

[yuliya]

how big are your dogs? and arent show dogs trained to not pull?

Joe, you would think that they would be trained not to pull. LoL.

I have two kerry blues (30-40) and a giant schanuzer 80-100lbs when fully grown

I am not worry about my dogs, I can walk them on the horse hair for a leash after we had finished the training, however I know that if it comes out good, then a few friends will ask me to make one. I want to make sure it's right. The reality is that even in the obedience rings, the dogs only behave in the ring. I've been almost knocked off my feet a few times after the dog walked out of the ring and was drugging the owner to it's crate in expect of the "jack pot" treat.

The kerries are hot dogs although not very big. If you stay on the sidelines of the conformation ring you can see some near fights, or in the ring during sparring some dogs loose their cool.

I would really hate to make a leash for someone that will break right on the brink of the fight:-)

thanks for the description, that's pretty much what I figured you meant while thinking about it last night.

[yuliya]

Tracy,

well when you said that you used two double length laces of roo, that makes sense now. I was trying to figure out the way to pull all 4 through the bolt, because I felt that 2 would create the weakest point at the bolt as it's only going to be attached by 2 strings instead of 4, I guess if the core is strong than it might work.

I also wonder if I can tie the core on itself through the braid on the back braiding somehow. hmm.

I still would love to see the pictures of your leads, didn't you mention in other posts that you used rein knots at the snap and at the handle?

woody2shoes, I saw that tutorial, but I did not think the core there provides for any strength, at least not what I was looking for.

Vaquero1, yeah I guess I should buy it. For some reason I got Gail's book instead.

Yuliya

[ShannonS]

As I am the owner/braider of "Leashes by Design", I can tell you what I do, since you referenced my site.

All of my leashes have a heavy sinew core. A single strand of paracord is too thick. A 4-strand round braid done correctly (baring thick lace) is around 1/8" thick, a paracord core will distort the braid (in my opinion). All items need cores. Yes, kangaroo is strong, but the cores add extra strength, plus prevent excess stretching. I have no issues putting a 80# dog on one of my 4 strand leads. However, if the dog pulls (or has issues), the lead is going to cut into your hand, given its thin diameter. Err on the side of safety. The lead size should fit the dog.

There are greater issues with inadequate hardware being used, than the braided lead itself. If you put a small hardware with the push together type connection for the swivel...don't expect it to hold a dog over 20#. You also can not use 2 strand of laces doubled over the snap to braid a 4 strand lead...definitely not strong enough.

The cores in my product go through the entire round braid. Before back braiding, I snip the excess core off at the end of the round braid (after it's completely rolled and stretched). You do not want to be able to see the core on a finished lead. This is the only way to hide it completely (in my opinion). The weakest part of the lead is the connections. Done properly, the back braiding adds strength, it doesn't take it away.

Shannon

[yuliya]

As I am the owner/braider of "Leashes by Design", I can tell you what I do, since you referenced my site.

All of my leashes have a heavy sinew core. A single strand of paracord is too thick. A 4-strand round braid done correctly (baring thick lace) is around 1/8" thick, a paracord core will distort the braid (in my opinion). All items need cores. Yes, kangaroo is strong, but the cores add extra strength, plus prevent excess stretching. I have no issues putting a 80# dog on one of my 4 strand leads. However, if the dog pulls (or has issues), the lead is going to cut into your hand, given its thin diameter. Err on the side of safety. The lead size should fit the dog.

There are greater issues with inadequate hardware being used, than the braided lead itself. If you put a small hardware with the push together type connection for the swivel...don't expect it to hold a dog over 20#. You also can not use 2 strand of laces doubled over the snap to braid a 4 strand lead...definitely not strong enough.

The cores in my product go through the entire round braid. Before back braiding, I snip the excess core off at the end of the round braid (after it's completely rolled and stretched). You do not want to be able to see the core on a finished lead. This is the only way to hide it completely (in my opinion). The weakest part of the lead is the connections. Done properly, the back braiding adds strength, it doesn't take it away.

Shannon

Shannon, thank you very much for your answer!

I agree about the paracord core. One of my friends sent me a picture of her leash that she purchased somewhere with the paracord inside, I thought it looked very uneven. of course it's hard to say much from a photo. I held a couple of roo leashes in my hand in the last couple of weeks, only one truly impressed me, but it was braided with about 1/4"thick strands, maybe it had something to do with it:-)

I actually really like your leashes. I've seen bunch of photos of leashes made by different people since the time I started looking into it and I think yours are some of the best I've seen out there, at least what I can see from the pictures:-)

what is a "push together" connection? I was thinking about using small snap bolts, you know things that regular leashes have, but small.:-)

also how wide lace do you use for your 4 strand leash? And for the thicker leashes I assume you just pull your strands upbraided through the beads right, because it seems to me that 6 or 8 strands braid will be way too thick to put beads on. Do you use real sinew? because I couldn't find real sinew strings only fake ones:-)

Yuliya

[ShannonS]

Thank you for the compliment Yuliya, I take great pride in my leads and collars.

On the hardware picture - #2 and #3 would be (what I call) push together. They work fine for small dogs, but even a correction/lunging dog, etc., can pop one of these snaps apart. The other type of connection between the swivel section and the bolt snap is MUCH more secure. And, actually, if someone is wanting to put a large breed dog on a 4 strand lead, I will often recommend a loop end. This will secure semi-permanently to the choke collar but is stronger than a snap. I don't want a larger snap on a 4 strand lead if possible, as it looks out of place.

Sinews that I use:

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/3613-00.aspx

or

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/11208-00.aspx

Depending on the dog's size, I will use 2 or more strands of material. I only use the heavier one on giant breed dogs and 8 strand leads.

4 strand leads ~ 1/8" thick

6 strand leads ~ 3/16" thick

8 strand leads ~ 1/4" thick

Almost all of my Pandora style beads will fit a 6 strand lead. You can round braid through the beads on the 4 strand leads if you want, but it will not work for the 6 or 8 strand leads. What I do recommend however, is a terminal knot to hold the beads in place. If you add beads to a finished lead and then add a braided button on either side to try to hold it in place, the beads will move on the lead over time. I add all of my beads during the leash making process. My beads will NEVER move on a lead.

All of my products are braided with 1/8" lace. I have used the 1/4" lace before (ends up about the same thickness as an 8 strand, 1/8" lace lead), but I don't care for them as well. Beads can not be added correctly to a lead braided with 1/4" lace, however you could still add braided buttons. I use 3/32" lace for all of my braided buttons. Some people use 1/8" lace for their buttons, but I don't like the result.

Shannon

[Chelsea09]

You also can not use 2 strand of laces doubled over the snap to braid a 4 strand lead...definitely not strong enough.

The cores in my product go through the entire round braid. Before back braiding, I snip the excess core off at the end of the round braid (after it's completely rolled and stretched). You do not want to be able to see the core on a finished lead. This is the only way to hide it completely (in my opinion). The weakest part of the lead is the connections. Done properly, the back braiding adds strength, it doesn't take it away.

Shannon

I just started braiding kangaroo lace, and that is what I have been doing so far (using 2 strands, doubled over the snap to create 4). If I'm using a core, does it really matter if the kangaroo is braided in a small loop to go through the snap, vs just tying the core to the snap and doubling 2 strands of kangaroo through the leash snap?

Also, if you're braiding the whole length first without attaching it to the snap using 4 separate strands, how are you tying the core back to itself to create the loop for the snap and the big loop for the handle? If the core isn't tied back into the leash, I don't see how it would be providing any added strength?

[ShannonS]

I can understand where you are coming from Chelsea, I guess my methods are built more on my own past experience. All leather is going to stretch. I have been asked numerous times, if I can "fix" other vendors leads that are attached in the method that you are referring to. The leather stretches and the point that the two strands go over the hardware becomes weaker until it finally breaks. My cores do not tie back onto themselves, but I do think they provide some strength to the lead. But, as I mentioned in a previous post, I think a lot of the strength also comes from how well the back braiding is done. When I first started braiding (8+ years ago), I actually did a 4 strand flat braid over the hardware connection to cover the core tied to the snap. But, over time, the core started showing more and more. If I'm going to charge $100+ for a lead, I don't want to see the core. I can honestly say (knock on wood) that I've never had a lead break, at the snap or anywhere else. (Knock on wood again!!!)

That being said, I have had to replace a couple of small, broken snaps on leads before. When I pull apart the back braiding to remove the broken snap, the core is still completely through the round braiding portion. However, if my leads were not rolled and stretched properly before back braiding, the core would be pulled out of the ends after being used for a little while. I highly recommend Gail Hought's books for any braiders, and this is the method she uses for all of her braided products as well.

Shannon

[yuliya]

I highly recommend Gail Hought's books for any braiders, and this is the method she uses for all of her braided products as well.

Shannon

Interesting. I have her first book and she doesn't really talk about cores in there. I was wondering if it is possible to use some kind of knot to reinforce the snap to brain connection in cases when leather is folded over the snap rather then back braided.

Something that goes through the braid and over the snap again so at the end it has more than 2 strands of leather going over it. something like the rein/ring knot, but I am not sure. anyone knows of a kind of knot that can be used for that purpose?

[roo4u]

in our 10 years of selling our leads wholesale i never had a lead break even though we had just the two strands through the snap eye on literally thousands of leads sold.....the limiting of stretch by the core had alot to do with it. I did in fact repair many leads made by other braiders where the back braiding had come undone. many wanted us to change the leads from the standard back braiding to the knot finish that we used but that was reserved for our leads. I actually had another braider buy a leash from us and she then proceeded to take the knot apart to see how we did it so she could copy us but she ended up with just a couple bits of lace and no clue on how to. the lead she bought was a slip lead with a sliding knot which she also took apart trying to copy....and couldnt and still cant many years later.

we also did the four strand flat through the hardware for a particular style of lead we sold and i never had the core show.

[Chelsea09]

I can understand where you are coming from Chelsea, I guess my methods are built more on my own past experience. All leather is going to stretch. I have been asked numerous times, if I can "fix" other vendors leads that are attached in the method that you are referring to. The leather stretches and the point that the two strands go over the hardware becomes weaker until it finally breaks. My cores do not tie back onto themselves, but I do think they provide some strength to the lead. But, as I mentioned in a previous post, I think a lot of the strength also comes from how well the back braiding is done. When I first started braiding (8+ years ago), I actually did a 4 strand flat braid over the hardware connection to cover the core tied to the snap. But, over time, the core started showing more and more. If I'm going to charge $100+ for a lead, I don't want to see the core. I can honestly say (knock on wood) that I've never had a lead break, at the snap or anywhere else. (Knock on wood again!!!)

That being said, I have had to replace a couple of small, broken snaps on leads before. When I pull apart the back braiding to remove the broken snap, the core is still completely through the round braiding portion. However, if my leads were not rolled and stretched properly before back braiding, the core would be pulled out of the ends after being used for a little while. I highly recommend Gail Hought's books for any braiders, and this is the method she uses for all of her braided products as well.

Shannon

Oh, ok. That makes more sense, I couldn't figure out how you were reattaching the core Thanks for the tips! I've been using a heavy thread/sinew core and tying it back to itself, but that makes braiding around it difficult. I'm going to give it a try with your method