How Do I Cuir Boil With Glue?

[ChrisHodge87]

Im creating a suit of Lamellar armor and want to use glue to harden the leather instead of wax or water but I cant find a recipe or tutorial anywhere. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[TwinOaks]

I don't think it's going to happen....maybe if you had some vats of PVA, but not with any common glue.

Cuir bouilli, which means "boiled leather" isn't actually boiled. It is leather immersed in water until bubbles start coming out of the leather...which looks like boiling. All that's happening is that water is fully penetrating the leather and driving out the air. That means that ALL of the collagen in the leather hide has been reactivated. This fully soaked piece of leather is then shaped and allowed to dry.....very much like the wet molding we do today. For armor applications, the difference is that the leather is much thicker and usually has a harder temper.

"But Wikipedia says it's leather dipped in boiling water....". Try it. The extreme heat of boiling water will shrivel the leather into something less than useful.

There is a way to harden the leather using a heated wax/oil blend, but you'll still be doing the majority of shaping with water soaked leather....maybe alcohol, if you've got a lot of it.

But, here's the important part.....glue doesn't penetrate INTO the leather like water does, and that's the critical part for making cuir bouilli.

[HellfireJack]

Cuir boulli is actually a lost art. No one today knows how it was done.

What they call cuir boulli today has nothing to do with leather releasing air into water when soaked. What TwinOaks is explaining is wet molding.

Leather can and is hardened by using either hot/boiling water or by wetting and baking the piece after molding. The baking method is actually the easiest. You simply wet mold the leather and then bake it in an oven for a short period at low temps. For boiling you have to bring the water to some pretty specific temperatures and soak for specific amounts of time then remove and mold. Again these are only approximations of what cuir boulli was. THey don't know what it was soaked in to begin with, oil or water, what was in the liqid or how it was molded exactly. There are only guesses.

I like you're idea of using glue though and it makes me want to experiment and most likely you'll have to as well as I've never read about anyone using glue. I've read one hypotheses in an old leather book on Google Plus that sounds interestingly similar except it suggests using gums rather than a glue in the liquid.

You probably don't want to use pure glue since, as TwinOaks points out, it won't penetrate the leather. I would try the baking method (You can find it online) using a 50/50 water/glue mix to start. It's also believed that positive and negative molds were used in the original process in order to create the highly decorated pieces of cuir boulli that survive today. So there's something to consider if you actually try the boiling method.

[Kevin]

I have tried making a roller for a strap cutter using leather disks and watered down Elmer's (PVA), it didn't work at all. Maybe the leather was already too dense, it didn't absorb anything.

Keep on experimenting,

Kevin

[electrathon]

About a gallon of very hot water and a bottle of elmers white glue. Case it like you are soing to wet mold it (totally saturate it with) and let it dry. Force dry it with light heat, the oven on the lowest setting and the oven door open to the first click.

[TwinOaks]

I've done some research and experimented a bit and had very poor results using boiling water.

I'd like to see some of the good results of dipping leather in boiling water if anyone has some.

[HellfireJack]

If you used boiling water then you probably did very little research into cuir boulli other than sticking a piece of leather into boiling water. The tutorials and discussions on cuir boulli out on the interenet will almost always reference specific temperatures and if they don't then it's because it's already understood what method is being used.

The name could have NOTHING to do with water as there is speculation that oil or wax may have been used histoically. Note that you can't boil either of these items because they will flash and burn long before they ever would boil but we still have historic terms like "boiling oil" and "wax boiling". We know today that water boils at 212° F. Different cultures historically also have different ideas of what boiling actually means so the term boiling can be applied to temperatures much lower than that. Water begins to bubble as low as 155°F. This, for some people, is considered boiling water and IS within the range people use today for cuir boulli. Some people would also bring water to a boil while doing other things, (no one likes to sit and watch while water heats up) and then remove it from the heat source and let it cool to the needed temperature. All of these could be sources for the use of the term boil in cuir boulli. It's just a term used for a process people are trying to recreate.

Asking people for evidence that the desired results could come from a method that no one other than you are talking about is pointless. We may as well demand you show historic evidence that cuir boulli " is leather immersed in water until bubbles start coming out of the leather...which looks like boiling" as you've suggested. Neither is going ot happen.

Now back to the topic at hand.

I've been wondering about the glue that is being suggested. Is PVA glue being used for a specific reason? You may want to try a more natural glue rather than a synthetic. I've found some recipes for glue using gums or gelatins that may give better success for this.

http://www.make-stuff.com/formulas_&_remedies/miscellaneous_formulas/glue.html

I would try the basic waterproof glue or the gum arabic glue and dliute them down by degrees.

[ferret]

You could use wood hardener, has similar effect to hot water treatment without the shrinkage. Does leave a glossy coating which can crack under impact, but the surface can be sanded without weakening the leather.

[douglais]

I've done some experimentation with this idea. I've been cuir buoilli-ing the leather parts for my helmets for 7 years with hot water, with good success, and waterproofing them with Resolene. However I want to waterproof the leather both inside and outside, and all the way through, so the helms will never soften in the rain. I tried various coating strategies on already hardened leather, and found that the best coating for waterproofing was SnoSeal. But, a surface coating still wasn't quite what I wanted. I want all the fibers of the leather to be coated with glue for a failure-safe water proofing.

I found a fellow on the SCA site, Armour Archives, who had a lot of experience with the glue hardening technique. He uses Titebond III, because it dries totally waterproof, and he uses a blend of 10% glue and hot water. If you reply to this post, I'll see if I can find the thread. I still haven't done the next cycle of experiments, but perhaps work will slow down enough to do them this winter.

Im creating a suit of Lamellar armor and want to use glue to harden the leather instead of wax or water but I cant find a recipe or tutorial anywhere. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[douglais]

Try this link, "http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=144836&p=2201087&hilit=+glue+hardening#p2201087". If that doesn't work, search the word "hardening", and look for a thread in Jan, Feb 2012, "Hardening Leather: the finer points".

Im creating a suit of Lamellar armor and want to use glue to harden the leather instead of wax or water but I cant find a recipe or tutorial anywhere. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Mrs Barry Hicks]

You can use animal hide glue. I don't have time right now to answer this, but I'll get back on here and post it, unless you want to contact me off list.

[ChuckBurrows]

Cuir boulli is actually a lost art. No one today knows how it was done.

Wit all due respect but that's an "urban" legend - the method of using water and heat to change leather at the molecular level (occurs at around 160° F) was never lost - it has continued to be used even into modern days - don't believe me> THan read John W. Waterer's books on the history of leather - while some of the methods used in the past may longer be used in modern times, the basic method of water and heat is still being used today to form items such as steamer trunk corners and molded leather cigar cases. It's the wet heat that creates the change.

One of the best researched on line articles for cuir bouilli is here http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/hl.html

FWIW - I've been using the basic method in re-creating original pre-1900 leather goods (including armour) for over 45 years and when compared to the originals (one on one next to each other) the only difference was in the aging....Why folks want to complicate the method with glues, etc is beyond me? After finishing the cuir bouilli process I have used high heated wax or oils as a sealer, but even that's unnecessary since regular room temp or low heat waxes or oils work just fine.

as always though everybody's mileage will vary....

[Mrs Barry Hicks]

Well I must say that seeing so much opinionated responses on this subject leaves me a bit saddened.

First off I'll post this link for those who want to read it. http://astelier-medieval-du-cuir.over-blog.com/article-21921258.html Might I suggest using Google chrome, it has a built in translator. The website overall has some great studies. Many of them I have tried, though I use rabbit hide glue, which comes in granular form and you must prepare it for it to be used. You can get it at http://www.naturalpigments.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamVen=12 Just scroll down, they have a variety of glues. There are other places that sell it as well online, just look for animal hide glue, there is also fish glue.

Cuir Bouilli as ChuckBurrows has mentioned is still very much used today. And there is some loss of information that we are still trying to recover. See, most medieval and earlier leather working was done under what are known as guilds. And most of that information was passed down verbally. Only around the Victorian times did leather working information become available in book form. There are a bunch of good free books online under Google Books.

Rabbit hide glue has been used with leather for a long time. It is still used today by master wood workers that do restoration on wooden items and some leather items as well. And some of us crazy people who choose to study it's history. And as for Cuir Bouilli and it's definition.... Keep an open mind. One place may have thought hot water was used, and another place hundreds of miles away may have used cold water (leather bubbles either way). And the application of sealers/hardeners could range from wax to glue to varnishes (shellac is ancient along with hide glue).

Remember to have fun and keep an open mind. I don't think there was a one and only way to do this. Different applications for different results.

Enjoy, play and learn. It's what makes us the great teachers for the next generations.

[Fowlingpiece]

I can see the possibility of the use of hide glue in the process in times past.

I use it in an old time concoction for an edge coating.

[Hisself]

I'm new to this forum and while cruising through the topics I couldn't help myself when I read this one.

Like Mrs Hicks I'm of the opinion that we must keep a very open mind on this subject because I'm convinced that there were several methods used to create a stiff enough leather piece that made it suitable "armor".

Remember that leather armor was only used in most countries for a very short period and was used over padded gambesons and mail. Only in Germany and Belgium did it seem to hang around much longer. The exception was tournament armor well into the 1600's.

Back in the 60's while I was in the military I became acquainted with a bunch of Bavarians who talked me into joining them to fight steel on steel competitions and they used leather and mail. A couple of these guys came from old families that still had possession of a few pieces dating back to the 12-1300's. Most were pretty rough but there was at least one or two pieces that were very well preserved.

I was fascinated to see at least three different methods for creating this armor, and that they too argued incessantly over which ancestor's method was indeed the best. I can tell you this. Almost all of these pieces were treated in some fashion with a combination of fats and waxes. Whether it was actually from the process or applied later as a preservative I don't know. But the pieces were much heavier that you might think, I would guess up to 5/16 thick on the cuirass and shoulder/pauldrons. Without exception they were highly decorated, and one or two were laminated with what appeared to be heavy linen, coated in gesso or something like it and painted.

They were hard, but not brittle and would actually dent if struck yet still retained their shape. The attitude being that if it is too damaged to use they would replace it.

They reported that the armor was originally made by immersing wet, not soaked leather into hot wax and then pressed to shape in wooden form that were slowly baked in an oven at low temperature for several days. This is what they believe, and whether or not it helps or adds anything to the argument I don't know. But just being able to touch these pieces of history was quite a thrill for me, and of course being in my twenties I didn't think that close to 50 years later I would be wondering about how it was made.

There were a few pieces on display in Paris around the same time but I don't recall that there was an adequate explanation of the process their either.

Just my two cents.

[gamli]

Mrs Hicks. 

 

Great reference article. I have started experimenting with this method of hardening leather.

Do you have any historical references for this method?

 

[Northmount]

On August 13, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Mrs Barry Hicks said:

Well I must say that seeing so much opinionated responses on this subject leaves me a bit saddened.

First off I'll post this link for those who want to read it. http://astelier-medieval-du-cuir.over-blog.com/article-21921258.html Might I suggest using Google chrome, it has a built in translator. The website overall has some great studies. Many of them I have tried, though I use rabbit hide glue, which comes in granular form and you must prepare it for it to be used. You can get it at http://www.naturalpigments.com/search_results.asp?txtsearchParamVen=12 Just scroll down, they have a variety of glues. There are other places that sell it as well online, just look for animal hide glue, there is also fish glue.

Cuir Bouilli as ChuckBurrows has mentioned is still very much used today. And there is some loss of information that we are still trying to recover. See, most medieval and earlier leather working was done under what are known as guilds. And most of that information was passed down verbally. Only around the Victorian times did leather working information become available in book form. There are a bunch of good free books online under Google Books.

Rabbit hide glue has been used with leather for a long time. It is still used today by master wood workers that do restoration on wooden items and some leather items as well. And some of us crazy people who choose to study it's history. And as for Cuir Bouilli and it's definition.... Keep an open mind. One place may have thought hot water was used, and another place hundreds of miles away may have used cold water (leather bubbles either way). And the application of sealers/hardeners could range from wax to glue to varnishes (shellac is ancient along with hide glue).

Remember to have fun and keep an open mind. I don't think there was a one and only way to do this. Different applications for different results.

Enjoy, play and learn. It's what makes us the great teachers for the next generations.

 

49 minutes ago, gamli said:

Mrs Hicks. 

 

Great reference article. I have started experimenting with this method of hardening leather.

Do you have any historical references for this method?

 

Hi Mrs Hicks, see question for you.

Tom

[TwoRoads]

OP, can you tell us what properties you are looking for rather than saying you want to use a specific method?  I've had good luck with the 160 degrees "boiling" for larp armor with sno seal.  It has held its shape nicely, thickened what I had a little, I was using 8-10oz, but then also didn't become brittle.  

But if you want a specific look or property I bet there are a lot of people here who could tell you exactly what you do want to use.