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miaoreo

211G155 Do I Have The Wrong Machine

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Well after all my tension and needle woes I thought I had it all worked out. New needles (longer), new tension disks and spring, all the little missing thread guides in place. Take a old pair of denim jeans, double them, and the machine walks thru 4 layers of denim like butter... as long as you can keep the upper thread between the disks, it does seem to want to "jump" out.

Now what I really want to sew is Navajo blanket and soft garment leather... 4 layers thick, two layers of each... It barely fits under the raised walking foot. NO DICE, the thread either breaks at the needle or it skips stiches badly... So, do I have the wrong machine for the job? or am I still doing something wrong?

Any advice is appreciated... I have now invested a lot of time into this machine and want it to work.

Mia

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How thick is what you want to sew total ?

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Are you pulling the thread down into the tension disc? And if you are barely getting the material under the pressure foot, you are sewing the max, I would of used a 7 class machine for sewing your combination of leather and wool.

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Hmmm. I had a similar problem with my National 300N walking foot machine. Not the thickness part, but the thread rising out of the disks part. Some thread, especially black nylon thread, is springy and tends to twist over itself, or the guides or disks. After suffering with this for a couple of years, on a happens today but not tomorrow basis, I too measures to stop it, once and for all.

If you look closely at the tension disks on a Consew, Chandler, Juki, National, Seiko, or Singer walking foot machine, you'll notice that there is a thin steel post on the right side of the disks. It keeps them aligned in a notch on both disks. I simply pulled the top thread under the little post, then sharply up and around the center of the disks. This has eliminated the problem of the top thread twisting out of those disks. I had to compensate for the added tension of the sharp turn by backing off the spring a turn or two. Try it.

Since threading top thread around that alignment pin is a bit of a hassle, when changing color or size, I now cut the thread near the thread stand, then tie a knot onto the new thread. I remove the thread from the needle, raise the feet with the knee lever to release the disks, then pull the new thread through, until about a foot is visible after the needle bar guide. Cut it off, thread the eye, and keep on keeping on!

Edited by Wizcrafts

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As for part two of the question, a standard walking foot machine setup will clear more than it can sew. The cranks inside the head need room to move as the feet alternate. The higher the lift of the feet, the more likely you are to hit something solid when you try to sew anything beyond 3/8 inch. This can be counteracted somewhat by moving the lift lever all the way down in the curved slot on the back of the machine. It may gain you 1/16" more sewing capacity. That would place the new limit at 7/16 inches.

However, when you sew 7/16" of material, there is a danger that the needle bar thread guide will hit the inside left edge of the presser foot. To counteract this I changed to system 190 Pfaff needles, and reset the position of the needle bar up by about 3/16 of an inch. This is about the difference in length and position of the eyes between system 135x16 (& 17) and system 190 Pfaff needles. With the longer needles, which have the same shank diameter and hit the center of the hole in the feeder, I can sew almost 1/2 inch of material.

But, the cranks on the back were hitting the body near the top cutout, when sewing 7/16".. A little time with a rat tail file opened up the clearance at the place that the crank was touching the back of the head and she now sews thick stuff without self-destructing.

I find that even though I modded my machine in this fashion, it still is less than reliable at 7/16 inches. This really shows up when I install 1/2 inch piping feet and try to use it to sew that size of a welt. Unless I lower the lift ratio to minimum, it will hit the body or presser bar inside the head. That is why I got a Cowboy CB4500, which sews over 3/4 inches.

Note: Even though my walking foot machine walks higher, it still doesn't do so well with #207 or thicker thread. Again, I have a 441 clone that does a great job with #138 and thicker, so why ruin my little bitty walker?

Edited by Wizcrafts

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How thick is what you want to sew total ?

The total thickness is only about 3/8 not compressed.

Hmmm. I had a similar problem with my National 300N walking foot machine. Not the thickness part, but the thread rising out of the disks part. Some thread, especially black nylon thread, is springy and tends to twist over itself, or the guides or disks. After suffering with this for a couple of years, on a happens today but not tomorrow basis, I too measures to stop it, once and for all.

If you look closely at the tension disks on a Consew, Chandler, Juki, National, Seiko, or Singer walking foot machine, you'll notice that there is a thin steel post on the right side of the disks. It keeps them aligned in a notch on both disks. I simply pulled the top thread under the little post, then sharply up and around the center of the disks. This has eliminated the problem of the top thread twisting out of those disks. I had to compensate for the added tension of the sharp turn by backing off the spring a turn or two. Try it.

Since threading top thread around that alignment pin is a bit of a hassle, when changing color or size, I now cut the thread near the thread stand, then tie a knot onto the new thread. I remove the thread from the needle, raise the feet with the knee lever to release the disks, then pull the new thread through, until about a foot is visible after the needle bar guide. Cut it off, thread the eye, and keep on keeping on!

Thank you for the tip Wiz.... but I may have bigger issues I find. I cannot see or feel that raising the feet with the knee lever releases the disks or changes the tension at all.... I am afraid something is not right in there.

I really didn't think I was going to have to disassemble this machine to be able to sew....

And I am already using 190 needles, they were the ones that were long enough to pick up the bobbin thread. And since what I am sewing is only about 3/8" I would think the machine should sew it without modifications (?) I am trying to use 69 or 92 thread only. (and the black worked better than the tan)

Edited by miaoreo

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Well after all my tension and needle woes I thought I had it all worked out. New needles (longer), new tension disks and spring, all the little missing thread guides in place. Take a old pair of denim jeans, double them, and the machine walks thru 4 layers of denim like butter... as long as you can keep the upper thread between the disks, it does seem to want to "jump" out.

Can you post a picture of how its threaded? Seems odd that the thread wants to jump out of the tension discs

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Can you post a picture of how its threaded? Seems odd that the thread wants to jump out of the tension discs

post-39942-0-25240000-1366735409_thumb.j

Question, I have not taken it apart, but behind the black Y shaped piece of metal that the disks are attached to there is some sort of lever. Is it supposed to move or do anything? Mine does not.

Thanks for any help.

Mia

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Question, I have not taken it apart, but behind the black Y shaped piece of metal that the disks are attached to there is some sort of lever. Is it supposed to move or do anything? Mine does not.

That is for the tension release,it is supposed to open the tension discs when you pickup the foot so the thread pulls out easier.

If your thread is jumping out of the tension,try when you thread it & go down on the left,underneath,go up the rightside & over the top of the pin sticking out @ the 3 0 clock position.

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OK... I am learning.. I watched this video on youtube very carefully, and you can see the disks "open" when the foot is raised...

Mine does not do that... I didn't know. Now the question is, or are, Why not? and How to fix it?

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OH Good GRIEF! A friend at work suggested I follow the path from the knee lever up to where raising the foot releases the tension disks. I did not have to go far. Who ever looks at the BACK side of their machine? The "knee lifter lifting Lever" is not properly inserted and is barely catching the lever that lifts the foot and not engaging the tension release AT ALL! I just hope that down the road my experience will help someone else trying to stumble upon their problem. Now, my problem is getting that big screw out that holds the lever in place.post-39942-0-34120300-1366820386_thumb.jpost-39942-0-70947600-1366820396_thumb.j

Well upon remove I find I have the wrong lever, it is marked Singer 508274 and the manual calls for part # 514047. The difference being the little arm that comes off the lever at a 90 degree angle has a 90 degree turn in it and will catch the lift for the foot.

Whomever worked on this machine last, obviously did not know what they were doing... Well neither do I but at least I can see what is wrong.

Mia

Edited by miaoreo

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Hi Mia,

then take it off put it in a vice and make a 90 degree bend at the end of the lever so it catch the foot lift. Or drill a hole in it and put a screw in the end that catch the lift.

You can do it.

Tor

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Wow, thanks.... good ideas...

Mia

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OK making progress, slowly... all back together. Wound new bobbin, re-threaded machine, new needle with leather point. Sews 4 layers of denim fine, sews 2 layers of wool rug/blanker fine, when I added a layer of garment leather, (soft) to the 2 layers of rug/blanket BAM! loopy threads on bottom and thread breaks after about 8 stitches.... darn... Help! Please!

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Is it possible the added material height under the foot is engaging the tension release? I've read loops on the bottom is a top tension issue.

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Loosen your bobbin tension, and crank down your top tension. I've edited your pic to show how to rethread the guide before the disk. Also, loosen screw "A" and move the thread guide as close to your tension discs as you can without touching. This will help keep your disks from spitting out your thread, as will the way it's wrapped shown by my red editing. It doesn't show in your picture, but also on the thread guide on top of the machine, wrap your thread in a counter-clockwise manner as well.

Regards, Eric

post-33297-0-23040000-1367370961_thumb.j

Edited by gottaknow

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Oh, and your thread breakage is likely related to the fact that you're not setting the stitch. There are loops left over from your previous stitch and the hook is simply coming around for the next stitch and the loop from your previous stitch is still there, so it grabs them both. This is characterized by a definate "snap" of of your top thread. Once you get your tension adjusted and the loops are pulled up properly, your thread will likely quit breaking. Most of all, have fun and don't get discouraged!

Regards, Eric

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Thanks Eric... appreciate the help.. I am gradually getting the hang of this. I will try your suggestions tommorrow. I put a small white mark on the tension adj nut, with liquid white out. So I can "see" how far I have tightened the tension down. By adjusting 1/2 turn at a time I am getting better control. I also found I am suffering from what my father used to call "Operator Ineptitude". For 40 years I have sewn on a home machine with a knee control. This whole knee lever/foot feed is new to my brain. I discovered I was unconciously pressing the knee lever when I was sewing!!! DUH!! Tension released = Loops!!! Retrain the brain.

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Thanks Eric... appreciate the help.. I am gradually getting the hang of this. I will try your suggestions tommorrow. I put a small white mark on the tension adj nut, with liquid white out. So I can "see" how far I have tightened the tension down. By adjusting 1/2 turn at a time I am getting better control. I also found I am suffering from what my father used to call "Operator Ineptitude". For 40 years I have sewn on a home machine with a knee control. This whole knee lever/foot feed is new to my brain. I discovered I was unconciously pressing the knee lever when I was sewing!!! DUH!! Tension released = Loops!!! Retrain the brain.

Opereator ineptitude...heh..that's a new one. In the factory, I've always called that operator error. I'm glad you're getting more comfortable with your machine. Over time, you'll learn that adjusting your tension is almost automatic. When I adjust tension, I go by pulling on the thread before you thread your needle. I have a few machines that are extremely sensative to tension (a keyhole buttonhole machine used in jeans production) that I also use whiteout on. More often than not, I change the tension enough to make something change that I can see. On your particular machine, if you're near the capacity with thickness and thread size, loosening your bobbin tension will allow your needle thread to pull up the stitch tighter, compensating that you could be over capacity some. This is especially true of leather. Wooven fabric not so much. Ok, I'm rambling. Have fun!

Regards, Eric

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OH Eric... fun? Fun would be machine sewing and not skipping stitches, and breaking thread.... seem to have solved the 'loops' tension problem. But it still skips stitches and breaks the thread. Pictures attached. Seems to happen Most OFTEN when my "less that perfect" control of the foot feed, lets it go too fast. Sure wish I had a servo motor....

post-39942-0-70918400-1367542137_thumb.j

post-39942-0-39772200-1367542144_thumb.j

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I get frustrated sometimes for folks here who have machine problems. If I had the power to reach through the time and space of the internet, I'd fix everyone's machines for them so they could get on with the fun part of sewing...

Back to reality..I'm working on some UTube videos to upload the basic settings that would apply to your machine. There are so many 111's, 211's, and their clones out there I think teaching in video form is much more effective than typing. I really hope to begin uploading some in the near future. There is another thread here that went on for quite a while that does have a lot of information that pertains to your machine. If you get bored, it's pretty long. :)

Regards, Eric

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I've read of people placing Nerf balls under the pedal to add resistance to help avoid a runaway or even bungie cords from the front of the pedal. A servo is really nice though.

Edited by J Hayes

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The tension assembly is held in by a screw on the body of the machine and is intended to be adjusted. The quickest solution is to but something under the foot that is halfway between the thickness you want to sew and the normal height of the foot lift using the needle bar. Undo the grub screw that holds the tension and ease it out a bit. Push it back in until the release pin starts to engage and then do up the grub screw.

Check that you have full tension with your normal work and that the tension is released when you lift the foot. If you are too close to the upper limit then take out the tension release pin and just pull some thread manually through the tension assembly when you want to remove your work. That is how things were done on many old machines.

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Thanks again.... Eric, Videos really do help.

I have a small nerf football under the pedal (read that here, somewhere)

Anne.... what is a "grub screw"? Sorry I have no idea.

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Oh, and your thread breakage is likely related to the fact that you're not setting the stitch. There are loops left over from your previous stitch and the hook is simply coming around for the next stitch and the loop from your previous stitch is still there, so it grabs them both. This is characterized by a definate "snap" of of your top thread. Once you get your tension adjusted and the loops are pulled up properly, your thread will likely quit breaking. Most of all, have fun and don't get discouraged!

Regards, Eric

Eric... I can hear the "snap" now when the thread break. So does this mean the tension is too tight or too loose? and top or bottom tension? Thanks again for your time.

Mia

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