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walter roth

Tools Of A Swiss Sattler

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Great stuff Walter, and thanks to Simon and Thor for translating; there is always some German words and technical terms I do not understand. Please note me up for a template Walter, that Swiss clamp looks better than anything else I ever seen. The hardware on Leder Louis`s model is much simpler to make than the original one. However, the exact measurements will save us some trail and error. Are the curved jaws made of one piece of hornbeam wood, that tree does not grow north of Denmark. Any other recommended wood I could use instead, otherwise I have to visit Oslo Botanical garden at night time :)

Thanks

Tor

If you need it, and you can't find it in Norway, and it is available in Denmark, I'll gladly send you some.

I think I know an old saddler here in Denmark, who brought one of these Swiss clamps back to Denmark. As far as I remember, he didn't like it (at all... And even added some cussing), so I'll try to buy it from him. My access to woodworking tools is close to non existing.

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Looks like Baltic Birch would be a good substitute for the plywood (laminated) parts.

Likely Fir plywood would suffice, but wouldn't look as nice, also a little weaker.

Tom

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Thank you Simon, thats very nice of you. I have to wait for the template to know the exact measurement/volume I need. The Birch finer (plywood) we have enough of here. And the tools, I have everything I need for both steel and wood. It would be an easy way to make the jaws from from birch ( or oak) plywood too, cut and glue them together (for the right thickness). Then epoxy glue in two hard-wood pieces in the mouth, to make it flat and resistant to the needles (later covered with leather anyway). You know what that Danish saddler did not like with it, perhaps it a bit big to have between your legs (if you used to horses and big motorbikes that would not be a problem) I would like to see a picture of it in use, perhaps you could ask Walter for one. Its in fact much bigger than you first would guess, without the measurements you would think it is a pony for a table top. I always thought it was a overpriced. However, when its 80 to 85 cm high, its an proper saddler's sewing clamp and you can understand the price of it. I would make mine with a bigger base plate, I can rest my feet`s on.

Tor

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Looks like Baltic Birch would be a good substitute for the plywood (laminated) parts.

Likely Fir plywood would suffice, but wouldn't look as nice, also a little weaker.

Tom

Are you talking about the Fir plywood you get at Home Depot? That wouldn't work. None of the needle trees, except for larch and northern Fir would work. With Douglas Fir I'm not sure. It has to do with the length of the fibers. Any hardwood will work. In your area it would even be possible to use well aged Aspen. Comes cheap and once dried it has excellent features. Beech or Horn beam is only used here as it comes cheap and has excellent features for tools. The better tools have Ash handles. It's also a lot more expensive.

I'd be very interested in the patterns as well as this is what I want to make next just along with a draw-down stand. I agree the hardware isn't too hard to make. Stainless steel will do the job and is easily available.

Nothing to thank me for Tor. I've lived long enough in Canada to know what it's like if some information is missing. All the great work has been done by Simon anyways. I find it just amazing how helpful Walter is and the generous offer to share his templates etc.

@Walter

Walter hast du die Schablonen auf Papier, oder sind das Holzschablonen? Ich könnte die evtl. einscannen und weiterleiten. Die Hardware müsste man halt ausmessen. Sieht nach einem 10mm Vierkannt aus. Feder, Klemmbügel usw. Zur Not finden die aber auch sicher etwas bei LeeValley, das genauso gut als Klemmbügel funktioniert.

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Hallo zusammen…..

Simon könntest Du das nochmals übersetzen damit es jeder gut verstehen kann….?

Ich werde dir dafür sicher einmal "einen Stein in den Garten werfen"........ :thumbsup:

Also, .......die Metallteile von der Nähzange von Louis sind genau die gleichen, nur sie sehen etwas anders aus.

Jeder fertigt sie im Detail einfach etwas anders.
Man kann einfach das gebogene Teil unten an der Nähzange durch die Stange ersetzen und es funktioniert.

http://shop.leder-louis.ch/product/Sattler-Naehzange-schweizer-Modell./587 der Rest bleibt gleich.

Das Material "Multiplex-Birke" ist gut geeignet, ich arbeite sehr viel damit.

Auch gedämpfte Buche ist sehr gut, denn die Teile werden ja 3-Fach verleimt.
Aber wie gesagt, auch jedes andere "Konstruktions"-Holz ist geeignet, auch Eschenholz ( Ash-Wood ) wäre sicher gut. N

Nur beim beweglichen gebogenen Teil der Zange muss man sehr genau auf die Holz-lauf-Richtung achten, also ...wie die Jahres-Ringe im Holz verlaufen, denn sonst kann es dort brechen. Bei Multiplex hat man die Sorge natürlich nicht.

Beim Multiplex muss es Birke sein, den „Aspen“ ist ein Pappel-Holz und viel zu weich.
Hier sagt man dem Weich-Sprerrholz.

Natürlich kann man auch ein edles Hartholz nehmen, Nussbaum oder so etwas, je nach Geldbeutel ……(((-:

Die gebogenen Holzteile kann man auf einer breiten Band-Schleifmaschine sehr gut schleifen damit sie eine perfekte Form bekommen und die Leimstellen sauber und fein werden. Ich habe ein Stück Multiplex-Holz fotografiert.

Acuh die Nähzange habe ich als Grössenvergleich mit dem Sohn des Nachbars fotografiert, der ist aber 182 cm gross ( 6 Fuss ), und die Nähzange ist für ihn zu klein.

Für ihn sollte sie nicht 80 cm. ( 31.5 Zoll ) ….….sondern etwa 88 cm ( – 35 Zoll ) hoch sein.

Aber ich hatte gerade sonst niemanden zur Hand …..nur den Grossen…((-:

Habe auch die Muster fotografiert damit ihr wisst wie die aussehen.
Sie sind einfach Massstab 1:1 auf Packet-Papier aufgezeichnet.

Ich könnte sie einem von euch zusenden und wäre froh wenn er sie weitergibt.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom, einscannen ist schwierig, denn die müsste man dann auch 1:1 ausdrucken lassen. Dann sind sie aus Papier und nicht so gut zu handhaben.
Ich bitte um eine private Nachricht und eine Adresse samt E-Mail und ich schicke sie zu. Alle, die dann Interesse haben, könnten bei dir die Muster bestellen. Der Betreffende sollte dann dafür etwas bezahlen, denn man muss das Original von mir erst ausschneiden, neu aufzeichnen und versenden.

Das gilt für die USA.

Hier in Europa werde ich sie jedem einzeln zusenden, denn hier sind es viele Länder.

Ich stelle die Bilder dazu heute Abend ein, ich hab jetzt nicht viel Zeit.

Gruss

Walter

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Walter, Tom und ich sind nicht die gleichen. Er sitzt in Calgary und ich bei Stuttgart.

Aspen ist zwar eine Pappelart wird aber bei richtiger Trocknung extrem hart. Kein Vergleich zu unserem Pappelsperrholz, das dafür tatsächlich ungeeignet wäre. Mein erster Beruf war Schreiner ;-)

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Are you talking about the Fir plywood you get at Home Depot? That wouldn't work. None of the needle trees, except for larch and northern Fir would work. With Douglas Fir I'm not sure. It has to do with the length of the fibers. Any hardwood will work. In your area it would even be possible to use well aged Aspen. Comes cheap and once dried it has excellent features. Beech or Horn beam is only used here as it comes cheap and has excellent features for tools. The better tools have Ash handles. It's also a lot more expensive.

Aspen here in the NW North America is pretty soft/weak. I'd trust Douglas Fir a lot farther than aspen.

Tom

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Hallo zusammen......

Hiermit die Fotos. Sie erklären sich selber......

Hey are the photos................thay explaines themselves.

post-43725-0-82613200-1426703693_thumb.j

post-43725-0-90487000-1426703707_thumb.j

post-43725-0-27639000-1426703726_thumb.j

post-43725-0-16511000-1426703749_thumb.j

post-43725-0-33801400-1426703763_thumb.j

post-43725-0-95085300-1426703782_thumb.j

post-43725-0-28874700-1426703812_thumb.j

post-43725-0-84552300-1426703824_thumb.j

post-43725-0-07142000-1426703838_thumb.j

post-43725-0-11892600-1426703851_thumb.j

post-43725-0-18216000-1426703869_thumb.j

post-43725-0-10484600-1426703884_thumb.j

post-43725-0-90780700-1426704019_thumb.j

Edited by walter roth

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As Simon didn´t do it yet, I´ll just give it a shot to keep this thread going.
I´ll maybe add some explanations in "[" and "]", just for you to know ;)

So well... thos metal parts of the clamp made by Louis are exactly the same [reffering to the one Walter owns, made by the company Bernhard], they just look a little bit different. Everyone just makes them in a slightly other ways [though the function stays the same]
You can simply exchange the bent piece on the bottom of the clamp with a rod or a bar and it still works fine. (http://shop.leder-lo...zer-Modell./587)
The rest just stays the same.

The material "Multiples Birke" [the LVL birch, mentioned by Thor above] works just fine for this. I use it a lot myself.
Also "gedämpfte Buche" [beech, my translater calls it "subdued", but maybe i.e. Thor know as better describtion/word for it] is really nice for this as they are glued 3 times.

As said before, nearly every kind of construction wood would work. Ash would make a quite good choice, too.
Just in case of the jaws you have to look for the grain of the wood... exspecially how the tree rings looks like as this might cause the piece to break if you make a wrong choice. With "Multiplex" you won´t have those problems due to its construction.
If you use "Multiplex" it has to be birch, because "Aspen" is asome sort of poplar and way to soft/weak.
Over here we say it´s a "soft-playwood".
Of course you can take a precious hardwood, walnut or something similar, as you like (to pay for) it ... ;)))
You can sand those bent pieces of wood really good on a belt sander to achieve a perfect form and to clean up those glue joints.
I just made a picture of a piece of "Multiplex".

I made a picture of the clamp with my neighbours son, too. The thing is, he is like 182 cm (~6 feet) tall and the clamp is too small for him. It should be about 88 cm (~35 inch) in heigh rather than 80cm (~31,5 inch) that it is...
But I had nobody else at hand, just this big one ;)

I also made pictures of the templates, just for you to know how they look like.
They are scaled 1:1 on brown paper.
I would send them to one of you guys and I´d be happy if he/se could spread them

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Here he just explains that he´d like to send those templates to Tom, so other people can order them from him, and that it might be a little complicated to scan and print those in a scale of 1:1. For those people in europe he´d send them piece by piece.

Plus (the red part), he´ll upload the pictures later (like right above this post ^^) because he´s just busy.

And after that:

Greetings
Walter

[i´ll just post it like this and comment on it later as I think, Thor and I might have some opinions and guesses about the choice of wood and stuff [Thor.... you´ll get one of those messages from me ^^]


if anything is not totally clear, just yell at me and I´ll fix that ;) ]

Edited by Sona

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Hallo Simon...

Vielen Dank an dich, und wie gesagt, Du hast eine Gutschrift bei mir.

I owe you something

Greeting

Walter

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Servus Walter,
ich bin nicht Simon, ist aber kein Problem. Mach ich gerne ;)
Abgesehen davon... ich schick dir nachher nochmal Bilder von meinem Ahlenheft von Kappey, da warst du a noch interressiert dran ^^.

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Also "gedämpfte Buche" [beech, my translater calls it "subdued", but maybe i.e. Thor know as better describtion/word for it]

I'm not exactly sure what he referred to, but subdued seems to be wrong. The word describes a mood or situation more than the physics of wood. Never mind German is a horrible language. I guess he's referring to steamed wood, which wood make more sense in regards to the shape of the clamp.

However, if one wants to take up on that stress, go for it. Build a steam box, cook the wood, bend it in shape, clamp it tight till dry and you're good to go. Instructions on how to can be found online. Engineered wood and especially LVL is the better choice in my opinion. Steaming and bending of the wood weakens it due to stretching and partial braking of fibers.

On Walter's pictures you can see that the core is reinforced with plywood. I'm not sure what kind is used there, but it looks like beech plywood.

LVL comes in various dimensions. Ask your local supplier what he can get you and make a decision then. The thicker the more expensive. It may be cheaper to buy just 3/4" sheets and make them the thickness you want.

Another option to me would be to shape a 4 x 6 or whatever the actual dimension is and reinforce with a 1/4" or 1/2" LVL on either side. Saves money and time. For the US and Canadian fellows, I'd check LeeValley for the hardware. You just may be lucky or again make it yourself.

Edited by Thor

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Haha, I guess you hit the "post"-button some times too often ^^.
And no, it´s not that sort steaming what I mean.
It is some sort of steaming, but it is used while preparing wood (drying, etc) for the normal use by a cabinet maker or similar. So it is used to reduce the tension in the wood and to differ it in some ways, shortly said: to improve certain properties of it....

Of course you could steam and bend your jaws, but as we are in a Leatherworkers forum I would expect that from anybody, nor would I suggest it, just because it´s a process you might wanna go into the woodworking topic a little bit more for.... ;)
And there for it might be just a little task to cut this clamp down to a simple, easy-to-make thing, rather than to be sure, everything is made like the "rules of woodworking" would dictate it ;)

Besides that: I got a little different opinion on bend wood, but even if the fibres might (!) be weakend a bit.... that would not at all influence this piece at all as wood is far more solid than a lot of people think....^^

For the hardware: Good luck Thor ;)



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Thank you Walter and thanks for the translation Sona and Thor.

Walter, just to make sure. That metal hardware locks the jaws of it? I always thought it did. But when I see your neighbors son resting his foot on the pedal, I'm not sure anymore. :)

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The jaws lock with the hardware Trox, I can confirm that, I have one.

The jaws lock but adapt to the thickness of the piece you are working on, thats what the lever arrangement is for

Very clever design.

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Hallo Trox

Ja genau, die Metallteile sind dazu da um die Nähzange festzuklemmen.

Also das Lederteil wird fest gehalten ohne das man mit dem Fuss oder Bein klemmen oder drücken muss. Und das sehr gut, es hält sehr gut und man kann nähen ohne jede Anstrengung und ohne das die Beine dazu gebraucht werden.

Man drückt auf das Holzpedal um das Lederteil festzuklemmen, und auf den Metallbügel um es zu lösen.

An die anderen.

Richtig. Wenn man Buche „Dämpft“ heisst das, das die Buche beim Trocknen im Trockenraum immer wieder mit Wasser angefeuchtet wird, denn sonst trocknet sie aussen sofort und ist innen noch feucht, Verarbeitet man solches Holz, reisst es an der Oberfläche.
Ich denke, heute bekommt man fast nur noch gedämpftes Holz im Handel, den traditionell trocknen dauert pro cm. Dicke ca. 4 Monate.
Gutes Holz sollte auf 8% getrocknet sein, dann verzieht es sich sicher nicht mehr.

Dampfbiegen ist für eine Nähzange ein zu grosser Aufwand, und man kann es nicht selber machen.

Wie gesagt, Weissbuche ist am besten, aber auch Robinie, Esche usw, die sollte man auch in den USA bekommen.

Gruss

Walter

Hello TROX

Yes, the metal parts are designed to clamp to the sewing clamp.

So, the leather part is kept without you must pinch or push with the foot or leg. And it keeps very well, very well, and you can sew without any effort and without the legs to do so are needed.

Pressing to clamp the leather part on the wooden pedal and the metal bracket to solve it.

On the other.

Right. If "Steaming beech" beech drying in the drying room is dampened with water again, does this mean because otherwise she dry outside immediately and it is moist inside, processed such wood, it rips at the surface.

I think today, you get almost only still steamed wood trade, takes the traditional drying per cm. thickness about 4 months.
Good wood should be dried to 8%, then it certainly no longer warp.

A major effort is steam bending for a sewing tool, and can not make it.

As I said, "white beech" is the best, but also false Acacia ( Robinie) , Ash, etc, you should get in the United States.

Greeting

Walter

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Beim Dämpfen wird das Holz eher wirklich unter Wasserdampf gesetzt, im Prinzip wie vorm Biegen, nur länger.
Und du bekommst heute tatsächlich noch ne Menge ungedämpfter Ware. Buche wird tatsächlich sehr sehr häufig gedämpft, aber das kannst du streckeweise auch schon an den Farbtönen sehen. Beim Dämpfen verändert sich der nämlich.
Und leider muss ich dich enttäuschen. Holz arbeitet.... immer. War einer der Leitsätze, der uns in der Bfs tagtäglich eingeprügelt wurde und ich habe ihn sich schon häufiger bewahrheiten sehen.... Holz quellt oder schwindet immer dann, wenn es Flüssigkeit aufnimmt oder abgibt! Wenn es dabei Unterschiede gibt (eine Seite nass, eine Trocken, etc) wird dieser Effekt noch massiv verstärkt. Am heftigsten zu beobachten beim Furnieren, wenn du das Furnier auf die beleimte Platte legst und kurz wartest rollt sich das Furnier auf, und zwar richtig! Da kann man z.B. gegenarbeiten, wenn man es von oben mit Wasser benetzt.....
Zum schnelleren Trocknen gibt es diverse Verfahren wie z.B. Kammertrocknung und ähnliches.
Und wenn man es will, kann man das durchaus "zu hause" machen. Man sollte aber Platz haben, ne Dämpfkammer, etc..... ist eben mit Aufwand verbunden. ;)

So well... I just think about translating this one, but it is rather some kind of woodworking stuff refering to Walters text which has not that much to do with the main topic here. So I think if you are more interested in wooden stuff, it might be a possibility to open a new thread.. or I might translate this one afterwards if anybody wants to know more about wood... and stuff ^^. But all in al Walter is alright in what he says, so I see no real need to write sth completely different rather than some additions ^^.

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Hi Sona, thanks for stepping in. German is not my mother's tongue and you did a way better job than I did translating it, so if you would do the honour that would be great. If you're not up to it, then I'll gladly give it a go, when I have the time.

Und Walter, danke schön für alles. Du bist ein echter handwerker mit vielen Facetten.

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Hi Simon, no problem at all ;)
As german actually IS my mother´s tongue, it might be easier for me anyway ^^. But when we get our first experienced danish saddler it´s your job again ;)
By the way: your translation was wuite good. Exspecially for a non native speaker (in both languages). Nothing wrong with that!
(Btw. Do you live at the border to Germany, or did you just learn german at school (or somewhere else)?)

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Thanks Walter and Macca, thats was what I thought it did, just had to ask. I must confess that I use a strap around my French saddler's clamp, I get a restless leg of pressing the clamp together. Especially when I am using it for a long period of time. Of course I do most of my sewing on a sewing machine. However, If I had been hand-sewing all the time like you Walter; I am sure I had become more used to it.

Tor

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I can't remember how I came across these links, but that's not the point. The tools are homenade, but they look even better than anything you can buy and I think yo guys will appreciate it.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/remark/pages/hobbies/tools.html

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/remark/pages/hobbies/moretools.html

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Hi Simon, you probably got them from me because I posted them here earlier. I know this tool maker, his name is Mark. He made a burnished and a awl for me earlier. I tried to talk him in to making a plough gauge too. But I'm afraid he is to busy with his own many projects. Mark could not afford buying leather tools so he made his own. He is a great tool maker.

Tor

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Yes Simon.......

There are nice things in the pictures. The knurled screws,... beautiful.

It is what I say always for many years, where a good craftsman is there it nothing which can't be done.

So if the so what makes TROX, I would be also doing... ((((-:

So the you can see on the website of Bruce Johnson a Riemenschneider (plough gouge) such as the Butler of something like that would be... I mean the Buttler from 1897.

Greeting

Walter

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deutsch.

Ja Simon..............

Es sind sehr schöne Sachen da auf den Bildern. Die gerändelten Schrauben, .............wunderschön.

Es ist was ich seit vielen Jahren immer sage, wo ein guter Handwerker ist, da gibt's nichts was nicht gemacht werden kann.

Also wenn der so was macht Trox, ich wäre auch mit dabei.......((((-:

So einen Riemenschneider ( Plough Gouge ) wie den von Buttler .....den man auf der Website von Bruce Johnson sieht, das wäre was...... Ich meine den Buttler von 1897.

Gruss

Walter

Edited by walter roth

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I finally received the paper patterns for the stitching clamp that Walter uses a few days ago. Tom offered to digitize them and I I'm currently drawing them onto a large piece of paper for Tom, so he can take all measurements in imperial standard and metric. However, there are some things I will have to look into before sending it off to him. I'll be talking or writing with Walter about it and see what I'm missing here.

I apologize for the following German only paragraph.

Walter, die Breite (oder auch Weite) der Spannbacken, wieviel misst das denn bitte, oder entspricht das der kurzen Seite, des auf der Bodenplatte aufgezeichneten Rechtecks? Die Angabe habe ich leider nicht gesehen. Ich habe ja die Vermutung, dass die lange abgestufte, konische Form die Draufsicht dafür sein soll. Das würde für mich Sinn machen. Wenn dem so ist hat sich der Teil bereits erledigt.

Zwei Schablonen und zwar die für den Fußhebel und eine weitere scheinen zu fehlen. In diesem Bild http://leatherworker.net/forum/uploads/monthly_03_2015/post-43725-0-07142000-1426703838.jpg die beiden rechts unten. Kannst du die Elemente vielleicht nochmals gesondert fotografieren und vermaßen, dann kann ich das hier noch eben mit aufzeichnen. Ansonsten kannst es mir auch gerne als Zeichnung per Fax oder email schicken. Wofür die zweite Form sein soll erschließt sich mir gerade nicht ganz. Wenn ich die Mechanik richtig verstehe, so ist das so, dass die Kluppe auch ohne den Metallbügel funktioniert und dieser nur die Kluppe geschlossen hält. Ist das soweit richtig?

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Hallo Thorsten......

Der Form halber Antworte ich dir auch hier im Blog.

Also. die Zange misst in der Breite oben 8 cm.

das auf den Bodenplatte eingezeichnete Rechteck ist der Umriss wo die teile hinkommen wenn sie montiert werden.

Also die 2 Spannzangeneile und die beiden Deckbretter vorne und hinten.

Die 2 Schablonen müssten vorhanden sein, Jens sollte die haben.......????? :oops:

Die zwei Schablonen sind ein und das selbe teil, nur einfach die Aufsicht und der Grundriss, also das eine Teil von vorne und von oben her gesehen.

Gruss

Walter.

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