How To Slow It Down...

[sinpac]

My only question is doesn't the 2" or 50mm pulleys only slow down the top end speed and still will not effect the ramp up?

Chris

[Constabulary]

My only question is doesn't the 2" or 50mm pulleys only slow down the top end speed and still will not effect the ramp up?

Chris

Thats right, it just slows down the machine and increases the torque. The motor still turns at the same speed. A smaller pulley has no effect on the motor configurations.

[Constabulary]

@ Trox,

I indeed was thinking about "trying" to put the sync. on the speed reducer when I figured something is not working as expected but I don´t want to make a lot of fuss just for having the needle up or down. Maybe it will work with the new sync. - if not I don´t care. As I said, you really don´t need a sync. at low speed as you can watch the needle traveling and the motor stops immediately when I take the foot off the pedal. So what.

But always nice to get some technical input from you

[sinpac]

"Thats right, it just slows down the machine and increases the torque. The motor still turns at the same speed. A smaller pulley has no effect on the motor configuration."

@Constabulary

So I guess some folks on here might get the wrong idea when buying the 2" or 50mm pulley. It does in fact slow down the top end speed but nothing else. Most people will think it will make the foot walk at a very slow rate. I just got my Singer 211g155 back from a Industrial sewing machine repair shop. I like most was discussing the control of a clutch motor and he told me to clean and re-oil all the pivot point from the foot petal all the way up to the clutch motor then loosen the belt to the point of slipping. No it does not slow down the top end speed but it gave me more control on the ramp up to the point where I will not need to buy a servo. I must also say this machine is only for straight runs with #69 thread. My Consew 225 has a servo because I needed control wallets, journals, tack and stuff like that. So in closing I just wanted to make it clear that a 2" or 50mm pulley is not the magical cure. Practice and time and learning the habit of your clutch motor are the cure.

Edited July 13, 2014 by sinpac

[SARK9]

Some speed reducer observations and the reinvention of the wheel-

I've installed servos + speed reducers on 5 flatbed machines (3 Juki LU-563's, a Singer 251-21 and a Consew 205RB5)-- mostly to sew multiple layers of heavy webbing and ballistic nylon.

Although I've not tried every single brand and style of the inexpensive "servo" motors, many of them do seem a bit more predictable and controllable when used in conjunction with a speed reducer/torque multiplier, which lets the motor begin rotating somewhat faster before becoming loaded, notwithstanding miraculous advertising copy to the contrary. My servo motors produce 5000RPM, which I almost never need. YMMV.

Anyway, when using one of the types I'm familiar with, I find its desirable to use the smallest motor pulley available....for reasons of physical clearance (as you will see later*) as well as gaining the max reduction for your $$.

*The smaller the pulley, the further "back" towards the motor the reducer pulley can be located.

Notice the relationship between the large reducer pulley and the 50mm motor pulley...its close!

Some homemade 50mm pulleys awaitng the 5mm broach shown with a 90mm for comparison.

In order to preserve the easy of tilting your machine back for service, I have found it convenient to use an accessory mounting plate adaptor to relocate the position of my servo motors. This plate moves the motor attachment back to the rear table edge and offsets the mounting position towards the right about 0.700 inch.

This lets you mount your reducer far enough back that the new geometry allows your machine to hinge back normally and unload the long drive belt as originally designed, and helps compensate for the additional width of the reducer pulley set and its alignment with the table slot. This usually eliminates the need to lengthen or extend the table slot to prevent the belt from rubbing as well.

Here's a quick sketch of one mounting plate solution to help restore the convenient maintenance of your machine's underside when using certain reducers-

In a nutshell, there are three holes in the plate for using your table's original motor mount carriage bolts to attach it, then a couple of sets of threaded holes used to bolt on your servo in a favourable offset location. It looks very sanitary and seems to work perfectly for my stuff. [Note- I eliminated 3 of the mount holes on the drawing but didn't change the text about 6 holes. D'oh!]

-DC

Edited July 13, 2014 by SARK9

[Constabulary]

@Constabulary

So I guess some folks on here might get the wrong idea when buying the 2" or 50mm pulley. It does in fact slow down the top end speed but nothing else. Most people will think it will make the foot walk at a very slow rate. I just got my Singer 211g155 back from a Industrial sewing machine repair shop. I like most was discussing the control of a clutch motor and he told me to clean and re-oil all the pivot point from the foot petal all the way up to the clutch motor then loosen the belt to the point of slipping. No it does not slow down the top end speed but it gave me more control on the ramp up to the point where I will not need to buy a servo. I must also say this machine is only for straight runs with #69 thread. My Consew 225 has a servo because I needed control wallets, journals, tack and stuff like that. So in closing I just wanted to make it clear that a 2" or 50mm pulley is not the magical cure. Practice and time and learning the habit of your clutch motor are the cure.

Thats true. People have to understand how a clutch works in general (basically the same way as in your car). The 2" pulley thing for clutch motor has been discussed quite often and I think most people understand that there is no magical cure at all and I think no one said that there will be a change in the ramp up as there is no "throttle" or so. The clutch motor always runs at one speed so there is not much you can do. You either have full clutch contact or you can "try" to slip the clutch discs but that depends on the motor and condition of the discs. And thats how you control the speed of your machine - often enough a difficult task.

Installing a smaller motor pulley is basically just the cheapest way to get a little bit more control of the speed of you machine. Sewing speed and motor speed are 2 different things, it depends on the size of the motor pulley and pulley at the hand wheel or the relation between the two. As there are not many options for changing the hand wheel so the only way is to install a smaller motor pulley. There are a few more hints to get a better control of a clutch motor. If the V- belt is too tight you have to loosen it a bit and this MAY give you a bit more control of the clutch. You can also open it and clean it and put some grease at dry or clogged up spots (if you able to).

There are so many different clutch motors and so many different servo motors - there simply can´t be the one and only solution.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Constabulary

[Cascabel]

Another way to slow things down, and make it more controllable, (which only applies to the old machines with the huge flywheels) is in addition to going to a smaller pulley, is to use your right hand as a brake to slow it down while slipping the clutch. This takes a bit of practice, but works well. You just apply a bit of "drag" to the wheel to keep it from getting away from you. I don't really understand why they did away with the big flywheels at all !! They allow for much better control, and easier hand-wheeling when needed, and the added inertia makes for easier penetration of heavy materials.

[sinpac]

Some speed reducer observations and the reinvention of the wheel-

I've installed servos + speed reducers on 5 flatbed machines (3 Juki LU-563's, a Singer 251-21 and a Consew 205RB5)-- mostly to sew multiple layers of heavy webbing and ballistic nylon.

Although I've not tried every single brand and style of the inexpensive "servo" motors, many of them do seem a bit more predictable and controllable when used in conjunction with a speed reducer/torque multiplier, which lets the motor begin rotating somewhat faster before becoming loaded, notwithstanding miraculous advertising copy to the contrary. My servo motors produce 5000RPM, which I almost never need. YMMV.

Anyway, when using one of the types I'm familiar with, I find its desirable to use the smallest motor pulley available....for reasons of physical clearance (as you will see later*) as well as gaining the max reduction for your $$.

*The smaller the pulley, the further "back" towards the motor the reducer pulley can be located.

reducer_plate_underside.jpg

Notice the relationship between the large reducer pulley and the 50mm motor pulley...its close!

Some homemade 50mm pulleys awaitng the 5mm broach shown with a 90mm for comparison.

90vs50mm.jpg

In order to preserve the easy of tilting your machine back for service, I have found it convenient to use an accessory mounting plate adaptor to relocate the position of my servo motors. This plate moves the motor attachment back to the rear table edge and offsets the mounting position towards the right about 0.700 inch.

This lets you mount your reducer far enough back that the new geometry allows your machine to hinge back normally and unload the long drive belt as originally designed, and helps compensate for the additional width of the reducer pulley set and its alignment with the table slot. This usually eliminates the need to lengthen or extend the table slot to prevent the belt from rubbing as well.

Juki_at_rest.jpgJuki_tilted_back_2.jpgJuki_tilted_back.jpg

Here's a quick sketch of one mounting plate solution to help restore the convenient maintenance of your machine's underside when using certain reducers-

servo_mount_plate.jpeg

In a nutshell, there are three holes in the plate for using your table's original motor mount carriage bolts to attach it, then a couple of sets of threaded holes used to bolt on your servo in a favourable offset location. It looks very sanitary and seems to work perfectly for my stuff. [Note- I eliminated 3 of the mount holes on the drawing but didn't change the text about 6 holes. D'oh!]

-DC

I like that. Thanks for the write up and pictures.

Thats true. People have to understand how a clutch works in general (basically the same way as in your car). The 2" pulley thing for clutch motor has been discussed quite often and I think most people understand that there is no magical cure at all and I think no one said that there will be a change in the ramp up as there is no "throttle" or so. The clutch motor always runs at one speed so there is not much you can do. You either have full clutch contact or you can "try" to slip the clutch discs but that depends on the motor and condition of the discs. And thats how you control the speed of your machine - often enough a difficult task.

Installing a smaller motor pulley is basically just the cheapest way to get a little bit more control of the speed of you machine. Sewing speed and motor speed are 2 different things, it depends on the size of the motor pulley and pulley at the hand wheel or the relation between the two. As there are not many options for changing the hand wheel so the only way is to install a smaller motor pulley. There are a few more hints to get a better control of a clutch motor. If the V- belt is too tight you have to loosen it a bit and this MAY give you a bit more control of the clutch. You can also open it and clean it and put some grease at dry or clogged up spots (if you able to).

There are so many different clutch motors and so many different servo motors - there simply can´t be the one and only solution.

Very true.

[Wyowally]

I was chasing this topic here and elsewhere. I tried something I haven't seen mentioned - I just moved the pedal attachment point from the top to a little .less than halfway down the right side. Easy experiment, pedal must move through twice as much arc, sweet spot for slow and backstitching easier to find and maintain. I'm still learning and getting more comfortable with greater speed, but this helps a lot for now.

Wyowally

[mk1mad]

Make sure that the rod going from your clutch motor to your pedal is in the furthest hole from the pivot point , most have 3 or 4 holes and this makes a difference if it close to the pivot .

I've had no end of trouble with clutch motors and always struggled to get to grip with controlling them , that was until I used a machine with an old singer motor that had 3 pulleys stacked on the end for different ratios , this motor was really smooth and totally controllable , In my opinion it's the cheap nasty Chinese motors that have very little control and basically the clutch is on or off so to speak , I also have an old seiko one that's also really controllable that I'm going to try get used to rather than my servo motor !

[Constabulary]

Over the years I had a couple of clutch motors - some where great and some where horrible in terms of controlling them. It makes a big difference if you have one with 2800 rpm or 1400 rpm. The worst was as Singer with 2800 rpm and the very best (just sold it with my Adler III sewing machine) was an Italian Moretti with adjustable clutch. I also had 3 different servo motors and the one I´m currently using is a JACK servo with 750 Watts and it is just great only thing is that the needle positioning is not working but that is because of the speed reducer I have installed as it seems. But since I´m sewing quite slow and most of the items short seams it does not matter as I can watch the needle go up and down. I would never again buy a clutch motor for my personal use and the motor for by Singer 133K3 will be a JACK servo again (most likely).

[Colt W Knight]

I just bought an old consew 206rb with a clutch motor. At first it would go from stop to 2000 mph, but after I played with it some, I was able to regulate speed, especially if I hand turn the wheel to get it started.

[Wyowally]

Mine is a one-holer. I'd sure like to see some of the original instructions to new workers using these machines. We all think it is bad to slip a clutch because of our vehicle experience. The factory workers weren't sewing with these things running wide open constantly were they? My belief was these sewing machine clutches were designed to slip and for the clutch facings to be expendable items. I know I'm liking mine the way it is.

[pcox]

years ago I worked in a shoe factory and you better believe they ran the machines as fast as they would run. They had 2 speeds on or off. the ladies got paid by the piece, and they ran them as fast as possible.

[Cascabel]

I have a clutch motor on my Singer 42-5. I find it easy to slip the clutch as needed, and if I need to slow it down further, I can apply my hand to the flywheel and make enough of a drag to slow it down even more. The flywheel on these 42-5's is quite large, and makes this a good option when needed. Probably not an option on the more modern machines with smaller flywheels, however. The large heavy wheel also enables it to easily punch the needle through heavy leather when running slow. Great machine !!!

Edited September 2, 2014 by Cascabel

[jerry895]

I have a Consew 227R-2 installed a servo motor but I wanted it real slow. Added another shaft and pulleys to slow it way down. I made a bobbin winder because the machine is so slow.

[gottaknow]

We still use plenty of clutch motors in the factory. If you sew 40 hours a week on one, you get really good at speed control. The clutches are meant to slip and will still last a long time. I use a special clutch grease, it doesn't take much and prolongs the life of the clutch. Most of our overlock machines have at least 3.5" - 4" pulleys on them. For leather work, I'd still prefer a servo motor. For garment sewing, it makes little difference.

Regards, Eric

[Wyowally]

Eric,

Would you share what the special grease is, or where to get it? I've seen references from everything like Vaseline to white lithium, and some saying "No, no, it will wreck the facings" to "No problem, white lithium makes it a smoother transition".

Wyowally

[CowboyBob]

I've always just used wheel bearing grease or Vaseline on the clutch pad(about a teaspoon)just smear it around.As a quick fix machine oil on the pad will work.They grab because they dry out so any lube helps it to slip & doesn't hurt it at all.

[oltoot]

The best final solution would be a servo but, in the meantime, most clutch

motor setups have a travel adjustment screw on the clutch arm that your pedal is hooked to. If yours has the screw adjust there to keep the arm from

going all the way. Long term this is like slipping the clutch within definite limits but should tide you over while you look the servo crop over

[gottaknow]

Union Special used to sell a white grease for their Amco clutch motors. It's honestly just white lithium grease. I use just a touch and rub it well into the cork, then wipe off the excess with a rag. Makes the clutch action very smooth assuming everything else is adjusted good. The older cork from the Amco motor and the very dense original Singer motors lasts a long time, even without grease. The imported cork is very spongy and using grease is a must.

Regards, Eric

[Bertil]

I have a 167 with 1/2 hp old Italian clutch motor. To find a pulley that fitted on the "star" shaped axis turned out to be impossible here in Madrid. Too old! Ok have to live with the pulley 90mm. I needed something quick and dirty. Prolonged the arm on the motor with a scrap metal v-iron bar. Thereby the length that your foot has to press down, for a given angel change of the arm, will be longer. I will move the pull down all the way out to the left but need to drill a hole in the foot pedal first. I just haven´t had the time yet. Anyway result is that I have much better control but still I will change to a servo.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Bertil

[Wyowally]

I tried something I didn't see talked about here. The grease sort of worked, but even with trying to align and adjust things perfectly, I was still getting an objectionable gronking and groaning sound when trying to start smoothly and go slow. Not knowing the wisdom of it, I went ahead and took a 150 grit sanding disc and slipped it between the clutch face and the flywheel surface then eased them together just enough to feel the drag from the disc. Flipped it 180 degrees and did the other surface as well. All I can tell you is the noise is gone and it all works better. I've got the pedal at an angle that works for me and the clutch brake engages the way I want when I back off.

Wyowally

Edited December 5, 2014 by Wyowally

[kwalk20]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2014 at 10:14 AM, SARK9 said:

Some speed reducer observations and the reinvention of the wheel-

I've installed servos + speed reducers on 5 flatbed machines (3 Juki LU-563's, a Singer 251-21 and a Consew 205RB5)-- mostly to sew multiple layers of heavy webbing and ballistic nylon.

Although I've not tried every single brand and style of the inexpensive "servo" motors, many of them do seem a bit more predictable and controllable when used in conjunction with a speed reducer/torque multiplier, which lets the motor begin rotating somewhat faster before becoming loaded, notwithstanding miraculous advertising copy to the contrary. My servo motors produce 5000RPM, which I almost never need. YMMV.

Anyway, when using one of the types I'm familiar with, I find its desirable to use the smallest motor pulley available....for reasons of physical clearance (as you will see later*) as well as gaining the max reduction for your $$.

*The smaller the pulley, the further "back" towards the motor the reducer pulley can be located.

Notice the relationship between the large reducer pulley and the 50mm motor pulley...its close!

Some homemade 50mm pulleys awaitng the 5mm broach shown with a 90mm for comparison.

In order to preserve the easy of tilting your machine back for service, I have found it convenient to use an accessory mounting plate adaptor to relocate the position of my servo motors. This plate moves the motor attachment back to the rear table edge and offsets the mounting position towards the right about 0.700 inch.

This lets you mount your reducer far enough back that the new geometry allows your machine to hinge back normally and unload the long drive belt as originally designed, and helps compensate for the additional width of the reducer pulley set and its alignment with the table slot. This usually eliminates the need to lengthen or extend the table slot to prevent the belt from rubbing as well.

Here's a quick sketch of one mounting plate solution to help restore the convenient maintenance of your machine's underside when using certain reducers-

In a nutshell, there are three holes in the plate for using your table's original motor mount carriage bolts to attach it, then a couple of sets of threaded holes used to bolt on your servo in a favourable offset location. It looks very sanitary and seems to work perfectly for my stuff. [Note- I eliminated 3 of the mount holes on the drawing but didn't change the text about 6 holes. D'oh!]

-DC

I know this is an old thread, but I'm hoping somebody can help me. I'm wanting to put a speed reducer on my flatbed (Seiko sth-8bld3) and still be able to move the head back when needed. I knew it could be done, but not so sure of all the technicalities involved. Does anyone know where I can find this accessory mounting plate adaptor? And how best to go about this?

Sark9 if you're reading this I would really appreciate your input since you've already done this, and anyone else. Thanks to all!

[CowboyBob]

We have a box-style reducer that we sell that mounts in between the table & motor & allows you to tilt the head back.