Singer 29-4 Versus Singer 45K25

[hyttogpine]

After energetic search on the Internet and mostly here, to understand how to make a old 29-4 sawing. And I think I have make it. At last the machine is now sawing. But I need practices and be familiar to the influence to the different adjustment.

I now have the opportunity to purchase a Singer 45K25. If I make up my mind to next weekend, I vill get the advantage a free transport. I would like yours help to klassifisering this Singer 45K25 - equipped with el.motor and foot lifter, activated by the knee, against the 29-4.

If the Singer 29-4 would be classified in the range of light leather sewing machines. Will the ability to a Singer 45K25 machine be in the range of light to medium or in the group of medium sewing machines ? Searching on Internett I have nearly no hits on Singer 45K25. But the knowledge on this forum is stunning. So I hope I can make my op and ready to next weekend.

[Wizcrafts]

I classify the 29-4 as a light to medium duty leather sewing machine, meant for sewing shoe and boot uppers and patches on leather vests. It uses needles up to size 130 or 140, but usually we equip them with no more than a #110 needle. The 45k25 is a heavy leather sewing machine, meant for harness, saddle parts, holsters and other hard leather items. It is usually equipped with a large roller foot. It uses large and long needles (sizes 160 through 230) and can handle thread sizes T135 through T350. This is way beyond the capacity of the 29-4, which is limited to about T70 thread.

The Singer 45k is sort of the forerunner of the Adler 105. It is a bottom feed machine. The Singer 29 series are top feed machines.

[hyttogpine]

Thanks for prompt answer.

To be frankly, I don't know anything about this item. The same do neither the seller . Except that it's not a eBay item. He was the one of the children who ended up with this - the advert said: shoe machine - after their grandfather. And he have seen this machine in use at the grandfather's shop. I have send message to the seller, inkludert picture, asking him looking "in the drawer" of equipment as rooler foods, pressure foods, bobbin house etc. I'm looking forward to the results of his investigation.

But since I not have the skills similar to JIMI

if you are handy with your tools you can make these parts up. i ended up making 5 plates and 3 feed dogs up from some steel plate. for your machine you need to get someone to curve it. i looked for some 6mm steel pipe with the aprox radius then got them to bend the thinner plate over this and made up the plates i needed. first thing is to square up your plate and get your two screw holes in the right place, screw it on and then put in a new needle and mark your needle hole. for your feed dog opening you can either use your old plate or scale up a picture from a parts manual. these were drawn to scale and are good for references (i dont think they are exact). http://dixiesewingmachine.tzo.com/MANUALS/SINGERPARTS2/45K21,%2045K25,%2045K63,%20&%2045K78.pdf.

if your feed dog is original then i would try to file the teeth nearly to a point again, remember you need a good file as they were hardened. the hardest part was the feed dog as this needs to be grinded little by little and the screw hole needs to be milled flat bottom not with a bevel like with a normal drill. i done mine with a small 9mm milling bit in the drill, first with the 9-10mm hss drill then with the milling bit. you can do this in your pillar drill. the two holes on the plate need to be finished the same. otherwise if you find the same thread type on other screws with the bevel head then just change them. Drill out the bulk then fine adjust with a file. here are a coulpe of examles:

I would like to know if its hard to find equipment and spare parts for those 45K25. In USA, Germany or England. As I told above, I have nearly no hits search on the web.

@Wizcrafts When you kategorize a Singer 29-4 as an light to medium leather sawing machine. Does it mean that domestic sewing machines are kategorize as light leather machine ?

Needless: If I have three different brands of leather sawing machines, all ment for sawing with needle size (random choice) 200. Does it mean I have to buy different needle in the size 200, to each brands ?

Edited April 20, 2015 by hyttogpine

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks for prompt answer.

To be frankly, I don't know anything about this item. The same do neither the seller . Except that it's not a eBay item. He was the one of the children who ended up with this - the advert said: shoe machine - after their grandfather. And he have seen this machine in use at the grandfather's shop. I have send message to the seller, inkludert picture, asking him looking "in the drawer" of equipment as rooler foods, pressure foods, bobbin house etc. I'm looking forward to the results of his investigation.

But since I not have the skills similar to JIMI

I would like to know if its hard to find equipment and spare parts for those 45K25. In USA, Germany or England. As I told above, I have nearly no hits search on the web.

@Wizcrafts When you kategorize a Singer 29-4 as an light to medium leather sawing machine. Does it mean that domestic sewing machines are kategorize as light leather machine ?

Needless: If I have three different brands of leather sawing machines, all ment for sawing with needle size (random choice) 200. Does it mean I have to buy different needle in the size 200, to each brands ?

Domestic sewing machines lack the clearance, motor power and compound feed system to move leather along equally on the top and bottom, over over changes in thickness that easily exceed 3.2mm (1/8 inch or 8 ounces). They do not accept industrial needles that are available in much larger sizes, like 200 (US/Singer #25). Further, they cannot properly tension and control thread that is stronger than what we know as upholstery size 69, or Tex 70. Many domestic machines cannot even tension that size thread.

Lastly, many domestic sewing machines can only sew very short stitch lengths, which can weaken the leather if too close together. Of course, this depends on the size of the needle and thread. People who sew fancy stitching onto shoe and boot uppers use tiny stitches and tiny needles and thread. This is a whole other field than typical leather sewing done by most here.

Therefore, I categorize domestic sewing machines as NOT being leather sewing machines at all. This doesn't mean that they cannot be used to physically sew some type of leather, with some type of thread, at often tiny stitch lengths.

As for your second question, about needle sizes, this may or may not be the case. Sometimes, different machines use the same needle "system." They would share needles in any size. But, if you have three sewing machines, all capable of accepting a #200 (US 25) needle, they might use different lengths and systems of needle. You could easily end up with your Singer 29 patcher that requires system 29x3, 29x4, 135x16, or 135x17 needles, a Pfaff walking foot machine that requires system 190 needles, a Singer 45K that uses system 328 needles and a 441 clone that uses system 794 needles.

Your question involved a #200 needle. This refers to the diameter of the shank that penetrates the material. The length top to bottom and diameter of the top of the shank varies with needle system. The system describes a needle profile. The "number" defines the diameter of the business end.

As for those #200 needles, your shoe patcher will probably not sew with that size. It is just too wide and may be damaged by the hook on the shuttle. Patchers, like your hundred year old 29-4, should not be fitted with such a large needle. It is simply not built to use large thread and needles. There will be problems if you try.

Most upholstery machines will accept up to a size 180 (#24), and may even accept a #200 needle (depending on the type of hook and shuttle system and clearances), without breaking something, but not the thread it is matched to. A #200 needle is best used with US #277 (Tex 270) bonded nylon or polyester thread, top and bottom. This thread has a diameter of almost 0.5mm. Most sewing machines cannot pass it around the shuttle and bobbin.

In contrast, machines that are built to handle large thread, like sizes 277 and up, and needles over size 180 (US #24), don't do so well with thinner thread and needles. Just my observation.

[jimi]

Hi hyttogpine, thank you for the compliment, if i can do it anyone can! haha. unfortunately it is not that easy to find parts for the 45k 25 machines. that is why i ended up making mine. maybe an old adler similar to the 45k could possibly share some parts but i iam not sure? try ebay now and again, at the moment there is a feed dog, shuttle and bobbins etc.. for the 45k25, needle plates are harder to find and accessories also, remember that these machines leave teeth marks on the leather (especially veg tan) so if you are sewing two pieces together and you dont want any marks on the leather then you will need a specific plate,foot and feed dog and cut off the waste. otherwise you could rub out the marks but you will need to use a feed dog with worn teeth. similar to your 29k but on the bottom side. hope this helps, and good luck!