New guy trying new things

[Christopher]

Hi folks!

I just joined a few days ago, and have been reading threads here and there, trying to gleen what I can, and learn how to make quality holsters.

So, I'm working on a modified pancake design...this is the prototype....I'm using 8/9oz veg tan. I can already see one problem I have and that is...gauging where to place my see lines. In the pic, you can see where the stitch is far off the molding, which would make this holster pretty darn loose. I also tend to over groove, I see. 

The pattern is my own design, with influences from all over.

Any advice you can give me to help better plan a good holster? How better to calculate where to plot stitch lines? For this one, I measured the width of the slide, divided by half, and added 1/8th inch (taking the advice from another leather worker as they also added the 1/8th) though it seems my calculations were a bit off...

I added the snap straps for security, of course. But any advice on making this better...taking it from prototype to production...would be greatly appreciated

Thank you!!

And...I love this place!!!

[Thor]

I'm sorry, I may not really understand what you're trying to say. Did you mark the stitch lines before molding the holster? Is that what your saying? If so, that's the wrong order.

[Christopher]

I did mark the lines before moulding.

Nearly everything I have read, and watched, have plotted the stitch lines before moulding, when drawing the pattern.

[Tugadude]

Welcome!  And good luck.  Lots of holster-makers frequent the forums, so I'm sure they will help.  As far as stitch grooves go, they are OK so long as they are straight and not too deep.  Personally I have shied away from them for the most part.  Used to use them on everything, but they aren't necessary.  They do allow the thread to recess and that is said to decrease wear.  What I don't like is the tendency to force the stitches flat, meaning losing their angle.  YMMV.

[Christopher]

Thanks Tugadude

I do like the recessed threads look. As far as wear and tear, for this design and application, I think it's more for retention as this is a chest rig design. But I get what you are saying the flatter the stitch, the more tension in the thread, equals more possibility of thread snap and unraveling.

[Martyn]

1 hour ago, Christopher said:

Thanks Tugadude

I do like the recessed threads look. As far as wear and tear, for this design and application, I think it's more for retention as this is a chest rig design. But I get what you are saying the flatter the stitch, the more tension in the thread, equals more possibility of thread snap and unraveling.

It's just not as good looking. Though it is weaker. An angled stitch puts more space between the holes, that means more leather between the holes, on any given stitch per inch basis. That means an angled stitch has less chance of ripping through the leather. But I think the main issue is aesthetics. A lot of people are in the habit of putting stitching into grooves because that seems to be what everyone else does and because they think it reduces abraision. But as tugadude says, it's a bit of an old wives tale and really isn't necessary - especially if you are using modern synthetic thread. I think the other reason people put stitching into grooves is because it forces the stitch into a straight line and hides sewing errors. But IMO it's better to get the stitching right, then you can display it with pride and no need to tuck it away into a groove.

 

Look at this, some of the prettiest stitching I've seen (done by a member here D.A. Kabatoff)..

A groove would have killed that stitching.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Martyn

[Christopher]

Agreed, Marty.

So my question is: how best to calculate where those stitch lines should be in relation to actual gun placement? 

[Martyn]

I've never made one, but I have done some knife sheaths. I would not try and 'plan' the lines, but rather wet form the holster and get it 90% complete and glued up and *then* decide on exact stitch line placement using a pair of calipers and Mark I Eyeball. It's much easier to stitch to how the wet-forming has left things, rather than wet form according to how your stitching dictates.

[Toney]

You got enough room two add another stitch line around the pouch. 

[Christopher]

Hiya Toney...

I am seriously considering adding that extra stitch.

[Toney]

Double stitch line don't look too bad, you could always say you intended it all along

[Christopher]

True....and since it's a prototype, this is the time to work out the kinks

[Joon1911]

Greetings Christopher,

 

Where to start... first off, welcome!  If I can make a few suggestions from someone who was in your shoes not too long ago?  

I think that you would benefit from separating the two things you are trying to accomplish here.  On the one hand you have a lot of technical and purely physical skills that you need to develop that will be critical further on.  Let's drill in on this first, ok?  I would suggest doing a google search and find some free or fairly inexpensive patterns that you can download and use to build those skill sets before tackling what appears to be a fairly complex prototype.  JLS and Adams Leatherworks come to mind but I'm sure there are other options as well.  Doing this will allow you to build your skill set without having to worry about the "design" aspects such as stitch line placement and aesthetic and functionality issues.  Here's one quick link I found: http://www.jlsleather.com/tag/free-holster-pattern/

I think you really need to shelf that prototype until you have some more fundamental skills in your toolbox.  Otherwise the lack of these skills will make it really difficult for you to recognize whether it's purely techne that is holding you back or if it's a design issue.  As far as stitch placement goes, your formula sound right but in application it looks like your calculations are off.  For a 1911 pattern which is fairly flat I'd guess that my stitch placement is about 3/8"- 1/2" all the way around the perimeter of the gun.  You have to consider the varying thickness of things such as the trigger guard which will dictate where the stitch line will need to come closer to the outline.  

I stitch most things while flat.  This does require a well developed pattern.  Martyn's suggestion of wetmoulding then stitching could work as well but I haven't found this to be very reliable personally.  There are a couple fundamental issues that should be resolved in your prototype.  What is the reasoning for your stitch path on the thumb strap not being a complete path?  This is a high stress area and sure to fail as it stands right now.  The triangle of removed leather behind the trigger guard is also an area that significantly weakens the construction of your prototype.  I would question what advantage it offers other than perhaps aesthetic?  

Spend some significant time building a few holsters and getting these right and then move on to your own ideas.  I think you'll find this a better path in the long run.  Good luck and have fun!

[Christopher]

30 minutes ago, Joon1911 said:

Greetings Christopher,

 

Where to start... first off, welcome!  If I can make a few suggestions from someone who was in your shoes not too long ago?  

I think that you would benefit from separating the two things you are trying to accomplish here.  On the one hand you have a lot of technical and purely physical skills that you need to develop that will be critical further on.  Let's drill in on this first, ok?  I would suggest doing a google search and find some free or fairly inexpensive patterns that you can download and use to build those skill sets before tackling what appears to be a fairly complex prototype.  JLS and Adams Leatherworks come to mind but I'm sure there are other options as well.  Doing this will allow you to build your skill set without having to worry about the "design" aspects such as stitch line placement and aesthetic and functionality issues.  Here's one quick link I found: http://www.jlsleather.com/tag/free-holster-pattern/

I think you really need to shelf that prototype until you have some more fundamental skills in your toolbox.  Otherwise the lack of these skills will make it really difficult for you to recognize whether it's purely techne that is holding you back or if it's a design issue.  As far as stitch placement goes, your formula sound right but in application it looks like your calculations are off.  For a 1911 pattern which is fairly flat I'd guess that my stitch placement is about 3/8"- 1/2" all the way around the perimeter of the gun.  You have to consider the varying thickness of things such as the trigger guard which will dictate where the stitch line will need to come closer to the outline.  

I stitch most things while flat.  This does require a well developed pattern.  Martyn's suggestion of wetmoulding then stitching could work as well but I haven't found this to be very reliable personally.  There are a couple fundamental issues that should be resolved in your prototype.  What is the reasoning for your stitch path on the thumb strap not being a complete path?  This is a high stress area and sure to fail as it stands right now.  The triangle of removed leather behind the trigger guard is also an area that significantly weakens the construction of your prototype.  I would question what advantage it offers other than perhaps aesthetic?  

Spend some significant time building a few holsters and getting these right and then move on to your own ideas.  I think you'll find this a better path in the long run.  Good luck and have fun!

Joon1911,

Wonderful advice that I absolutely will take. Thank you for the website...I will be checking that out asap!! 

To answer the question about that sharp angle cut, the application of this holster is for a chest rig, so that leg is the one that extends around the body to meet the one opposite on the right side of the pic. The reason for this design....I recently saw some chest rigs, one in particular...the guide's choice...I liked, especially where it has the quick release parachute buckle. The one thing that I didn't like was that it was a foldover mated to a panel that then had the harness connected. That's when I thought....maybe a pancake design could work, and with a thumb break, instead of the long front strap they used, to facilitate both retention and quicker draw....plus the pancake could possibly make it easier to be ambidextrous/reversible so one holster works for either hand (saving customers $$$.... :-) )

Also, using quick release parachute clips...customers only have to buy one harness instead of a new rig for each gun. This way...they buy one harness, then just the holster for any additional pistol...1911, k frame, xd, etc.

 

[JLSleather]

Much of what you are talking about is personal preference.  I've seen great holsters made by stitching the leather and THEN forming.  AND I've seen great holsters made by forming the leather and THEN stitching.  Each his own.

As for a groove, I almost never use one on a holster, though I often do on a wallet.  Basic reasoning is... any time you cut into something you weaken it.  In the holster, I want to leave the strength.  In the  wallet, you don't need the strength, but you may want to recess the stitch since it will be in and out of your pocket a LOT.  But the groove is a very shallow one, and most of the 'recessing' is done with tension.

There are some free patterns over there which may help get you on track.  Hopefully, by doing a few of these, you'll get an idea for what you like and what you don't - and begin to develop your own 'style'.  Use 'em as is, or make your own modifications (this is the point) -- a pancake can easily become an IWB or "convertible" with a few lines added/moved ...

 

[Josh Ashman]

There has been plenty of good advice to get you pointed in the right direction so I'll leave that alone. I will add that making a stitch groove on a holster probably isn't required and I skip it lots of times myself. But try skipping a stitch groove on a flat plate rigging or anywhere that you will have a lot of wear and/or friction and you will wear through your thread in an amazingly short period of time. Doesn't mater what type of thread you use it'll wear through. That's been my experience at least. 

Good luck and have fun,

Josh

[Martyn]

15 minutes ago, Josh Ashman said:

... But try skipping a stitch groove on a flat plate rigging or anywhere that you will have a lot of wear and/or friction and you will wear through your thread in an amazingly short period of time. Doesn't mater what type of thread you use it'll wear through. That's been my experience at least. 

Good luck and have fun,

Josh

But that's where it's needed and that's what it's for. It's like the inside of a knife sheath where the stitching comes through from the loop, if you dont drop it into a groove, there is a real risk of the knife blade making contact with it. It makes sense when it makes sense. But I think a lot of times - possibly most of the time - it's used when it isn't needed.

[Dwight]

I tried the game of having patterns so perfected that I could plot the stitch lines, . . . sew everything flat, . . . wet & mold later, . . . etc.

Personally, . . . I did not like it.  Much prefer to get one side of the holster stitched down like it needs to be, . . . wet & mold, . . . dry, . . . do the stitching on the second side.  

I also lightly gouge for stitch lines, . . . mainly to give these 71 year old eyes a target to put the stitches in.  AND, yes, . . . they are also flat, . . . less chance of wearing and abrading through.

I only mention these techniques as "the way I do it" and it is not necessarily "THE BEST" way for everyone, . . . but it makes my shop hum and be productive.

Trying different approaches will sometimes create a nice pile of beautiful scrap leather, . . . but it will also give one foresight on what can and cannot be done that way.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Dwight]

Here is a sample of what I was talking about.  The right side is sewn down, . . . the whole thing submerged, . . . gun outline made (Beretta 9mm in this case).

After it dries, . . . finish gluing it together, . . . gouge, stitch and be on your way.

It also allows you to use a bit bigger piece of leather, . . . and you can then mold it to the weapon, . . . especially if you do not have a pattern for that exact model.  In this case I'm using a 1911 pattern back, . . . and a slightly enlarged front, . . . to do the Beretta, . . . and my "lucky guess" as to how much bigger to make it  came out pretty good this time.

They don't always 

May God bless,

Dwight

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, Dwight said:

Here is a sample of what I was talking about.  The right side is sewn down, . . . the whole thing submerged, . . . gun outline made (Beretta 9mm in this case).

After it dries, . . . finish gluing it together, . . . gouge, stitch and be on your way.

It also allows you to use a bit bigger piece of leather, . . . and you can then mold it to the weapon, . . . especially if you do not have a pattern for that exact model.  In this case I'm using a 1911 pattern back, . . . and a slightly enlarged front, . . . to do the Beretta, . . . and my "lucky guess" as to how much bigger to make it  came out pretty good this time.

They don't always 

May God bless,

Dwight

Thanks for weighing in Dwight....nice to meet you.

At first, I didn't follow what you described, after you added the picture, then I understood what you were saying. I like this idea...it makes sense to me

[SooperJake]

+1 on watching Eric Adams videos via youtube