Finishing English Bridal Belt Edges

[arz]

Hello,

I am having a small problem finishing the edges of Sedgwick English bridal. I bevel, sand, burnish with water and soap, dye, then apply a finish. For the final finish I have tried bee's wax and pearl glue (a traditional English technic). I have of course tried other methods and the order etc. 

I am not new to burnishing (but I am new to English bridal) and can get great looking results. What I am concerned about is wear. One thing that has been recommended to me is to use tallow fat as a filler/burnishing gum. I just can't find any at the moment  

Here is my problem: The edges look fantastic! Smooth, great color and shiny. But...it seems they simply will not last. After a day or so of normal use, parts of the edge seem to dry out and then the edge get fuzzy or slightly rough again (especially around the buckle). It is not bad, it just doesn't look 100% anymore. I want my customers very happy and don't want the belt wearing after a week of use.  I am currently waiting to see how my latest attempt will hold.

Is this normal? Am I just being overly picky? Any ideas on what I may be doing wrong or how I can resolve this?

Thank you for any help you can offer! -Adam

Here are some photos of how my edges look when "new" Sorry but I do not have a photo of the problem I mentioned. I will try to get a photo when I get a chance.

 

[Matt S]

Tallow is the rendered fat from beef or lamb. I use lamb because it's what I had already. Also I find that watered-down PVA glue is longer lasting than anything else I've tried so far. However because once it dries it is insoluble you only have one shot at the burnishing.

My method for burnishing bridle is detailed here:

 

[arz]

@Matt S Thank you for your help! I searched for bridle edge finishing and somehow missed your post  I will continue to look for some kind of tallow. I might have to order it online. I do have the Sedgwick leather conditioner that has tallow in it. It seems too soft though for filling in the voids.

From what I read in your previous post, you first quickly burnish, dye, apply burnishing compound and then bee's wax. Are you using PVA glue as your burnishing solution? I find that the pearl glue gives a hard shiny finish that is easy to apply. I am not applying bee's wax after. I am still testing to see how well it will hold up.

I can get the fibers to lay down great with a variety of burnishing compounds: water + saddle soap, Tokonole, etc. The leather burnishes very easily. But, unlike the Italian leather I use, the fibers about a day or so later want to come back up or a rough spot will appear. Anyway, it is nice leather to work with!

-Adam

 

[Matt S]

9 hours ago, arz said:

@Matt S Thank you for your help! I searched for bridle edge finishing and somehow missed your post  I will continue to look for some kind of tallow. I might have to order it online. I do have the Sedgwick leather conditioner that has tallow in it. It seems too soft though for filling in the voids.

From what I read in your previous post, you first quickly burnish, dye, apply burnishing compound and then bee's wax. Are you using PVA glue as your burnishing solution? I find that the pearl glue gives a hard shiny finish that is easy to apply. I am not applying bee's wax after. I am still testing to see how well it will hold up.

I can get the fibers to lay down great with a variety of burnishing compounds: water + saddle soap, Tokonole, etc. The leather burnishes very easily. But, unlike the Italian leather I use, the fibers about a day or so later want to come back up or a rough spot will appear. Anyway, it is nice leather to work with!

-Adam

 

I think Sedgwicks dressing is dubbin, which varies but is usually roughly equal parts tallow, oil and wax. I've never used Sedgwicks dressing but dubbin would certainly be too soft to fill the edges, though it makes a great maintenance dressing.

Yes I used diluted PVA as a burnishing solution, but only for the final burnish. I find that once it dries that's it, so it has to be done pronto. I like and have used gum arabic solution before, which goes beautifully shiny very quickly even by hand, but find it isn't very water resistant. Shellac (dissolved in alcohol) works well too, but I have found it is best suited to applications that will not flex at all, such as shoe heels. I haven't got round to trying pearl glue yet since I'm happy with PVA and my girlfriend can't stand the smell of hide glue. I apply beeswax after final burnish.

[arz]

@Matt S Thanks! I tried two things yesterday. 1. With a quick burnish with water and soap and then a two coats of bee's wax (well 50% bee's wax and 50% paraffin); 2. Quick burnish with water and soap and then a final coat of pearl glue. 

The pearl glue was a much better finish. I scratched the edge VERY hard with my fingernail. The pearl glue was much better, it showed very few marks. I am very happy and think that is what I will go for. I am told that pearl glue will stay flexible and will not crack like some other hard finishes. That said, I will try some tallow before I apply the final finish as that has been highly recommend to me.

I don't particularly like the smell of hide glue, but it is non-toxic and my wife is less bothered by the smell than I am  I also like that it goes on quick.

Here is the video I found that shows the pearl glue method for anyone who may read this:

-Adam

[Tpc]

Hi, I use bridle a bit. I dye the edge after bevelling and a light rub dry 400 grit. when dry I go back in with water and burnish. I'm happy with it, T

[Mattsbagger]

The maker of that video is also on this site. He has a saddle making school in Scotland. I like his style of video making. Rough and ready not artsy.lol

[gmace99]

Thanks Matt the rough and ready is a good description. When I go into my workshop I take my camera with me. If I get time I do a video .  I never plan what I am going to do and never really know what to video until I turn the camera on   I relie on my good luck and experience I also don't edit. I believe if I mess up you wills get to see how I overcome that.  I don't like the 10 minutes intros that people do. I just want to do the video and get home to my coffee 

 

as to the hide glue smelling.  Hell yes it goes of fast  so only make what you need.  We use the tallow and glue method in the big companies because it works

 

tallow you can get on eBay or from abbey saddlery 

[arz]

Thanks for the tips! I really liked the way the hide glue looks, goes on very easy etc. However, it was very humid in Romania this Summer and the edges got sticky, and then turned just a little off-white and cracking. Probably the heat/humity reactivated the glue. Maybe I put too much on???

At this time I will just go back to using Beeswax. I have found, sanding, edging, burnishing with just water, dying, and then burnishing/sealing works pretty good. 

I also think I am being too picky with the edges. I can't spend an 1-2 hours doing the edges on one belt...I would never make any money  Perhaps a motor burnisher and sander would speed things up...

Thanks! -Adam

[gmace99]

Sounds as if you are using to much glue   I put about a teaspoon into an inch of water in a jar. 

I normally dip my fingers in and if they feel a little sticky then that is enough 

i don't understand why you need to sand your edges  I use a plough gauge to cut my edges bridle makers in the trade mak hundreds of straps a week   They never have to sand.  

Ejeffries have a good video online showing inside their factory you can see the speed we work at in the trade

[arz]

3 hours ago, gmace99 said:

Sounds as if you are using to much glue   I put about a teaspoon into an inch of water in a jar. 

I normally dip my fingers in and if they feel a little sticky then that is enough 

i don't understand why you need to sand your edges  I use a plough gauge to cut my edges bridle makers in the trade mak hundreds of straps a week   They never have to sand.  

Ejeffries have a good video online showing inside their factory you can see the speed we work at in the trade

I use the wood strap cutter. To me the edges are not OK, just not as smooth as I would like. Maybe if I used a plough gauge it would be better. I just can't invest in one at the moment.

I agree that I probably used too much glue. I will try again. I also found some beef tallow, that will probably fill in the voids I am sanding out now. I found it at a fancy food store  

Thank you for all your help! -Adam

[gmace99]

Ok I see why you are sanding. In my younger years we use to just stain then glue water then rub with a rubbing stick hard we found tallow did the job much faster

[arz]

9 minutes ago, gmace99 said:

Ok I see why you are sanding. In my younger years we use to just stain then glue water then rub with a rubbing stick hard we found tallow did the job much faster

I will give the tallow a try! If it is more efficient, great  -Adam

[Clintonville Leather]

On 9/5/2017 at 5:14 AM, gmace99 said:

Sounds as if you are using to much glue   I put about a teaspoon into an inch of water in a jar. 

I normally dip my fingers in and if they feel a little sticky then that is enough 

i don't understand why you need to sand your edges  I use a plough gauge to cut my edges bridle makers in the trade mak hundreds of straps a week   They never have to sand.  

Ejeffries have a good video online showing inside their factory you can see the speed we work at in the trade

I had the same problem.  I saw your video and bought some hide glue to try.  It turned white and cracked the next day.  I will try less glue.  I like your videos, they are candid and real and have lots of valuable information for those of us who are younger.  I also sand the edges to get the little fibers off.  I have been doing leather work for 9 years and after burnishing it seems the fuzzy fibers start standing up after a few weeks.  That was why I tended to sand them off first but it is an expensive task.  I am hopeful the pearl glue will make it less necessary.  Thank you.

[gmace99]

Another thing that works instead of pearl glue is pva glue it is called white glue in some countries 

 

put it it on the edge let it dry for a minute or two then rub.  This gives you a shiny edge and holds the fibres down

[Geoff]

On 9/5/2017 at 2:03 PM, arz said:

I use the wood strap cutter. To me the edges are not OK, just not as smooth as I would like. Maybe if I used a plough gauge it would be better. I just can't invest in one at the moment.

I agree that I probably used too much glue. I will try again. I also found some beef tallow, that will probably fill in the voids I am sanding out now. I found it at a fancy food store  

Thank you for all your help! -Adam

Using a wooden strap cutter should give a neat, square edge providing that you use a sharp blade. Also, adjust the cutter to the thickness of the strap. To avoid the wood edge from marking the strap, you can glue a bit of thin leather inside.

[Basically Bob]

Your concern is well founded and I struggled with this as well.  I find that many leather workers have edge finishing techniques look great on the bench but like you, I want an edge that looks great after a lot of real life use.  

Here’s what I am doing at the moment with bridle leather belts.  

Bevel, sand lightly & dye.  Let sit for 24 hrs.  Burnish.  

I finish with resolene (cut 50/50 with water) - lightly burnishing after each of 3 or 4 coats.

I have been wearing a belt finished using this technique, daily,  for almost 6 months and the edge still looks good.  Not like new, but it is the best wearing edge that I have found.

 

 

[arz]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while  I have used my belt for almost a year and it still looks great. I used hide glue on mine and bees wax for my brother in laws. Both look good. Using the hide glue works well, just make sure not to put too much on or it will get sticky.

I now sand, use Tokonole, and then use 50/50 bees wax/paraffin. I found it was important to make sure I used enough wax. Also, using my heating iron works very well to spread the wax. Of course the smoother you get any edge the better. Also, I apply Tokonole, sand, apple again sand..etc....this will get a very very smooth edge. AFTER that apply bees wax etc. So far our wallets/clutches are holding up well.

You can see some of our edges here on our Instagram account :atelier_zander Atelier Zander

Hope this helps! -Adam

 

[YinTx]

On 5/26/2018 at 4:16 AM, gmace99 said:

Another thing that works instead of pearl glue is pva glue it is called white glue in some countries 

 

Finally found pearl glue, or "Hide Glue" which I presume is the same thing.  Turns out there are a variety of strengths: 165 gram, 192 gram, 251 gram, etc apparently made for piano and violin repairs.  And from who knows what to rabbit skin for the source.  And $20-25/lb or so.  Does it matter what variety to use?  Will one get hard and brittle and crack, or not slick up nicely?  Would suck to have a pound of glue I can't use laying around... but want to try this stuff out to see how I like it.  Thanks for the pointers!

YinTx

[garypl]

49 minutes ago, YinTx said:

Finally found pearl glue, or "Hide Glue" which I presume is the same thing.  Turns out there are a variety of strengths: 165 gram, 192 gram, 251 gram, etc apparently made for piano and violin repairs.  And from who knows what to rabbit skin for the source.  And $20-25/lb or so.  Does it matter what variety to use?  Will one get hard and brittle and crack, or not slick up nicely?  Would suck to have a pound of glue I can't use laying around... but want to try this stuff out to see how I like it.  Thanks for the pointers!

YinTx

I think it might be more trouble to use hide glue than it’s worth.  I use hide glue for woodworking and it works great for gluing up chairs because eventually you can reverse the bond using alcohol or warm water and reglue the joints.  Downside is that you have to mix the dry glue with water and heat it to dissolve the glue.  You have to keep it hot while using it to keep it in liquid state. I have an electric glue pot that keeps it at a constant temp.  

I think there are easier ways to seal edges

Gary

[Matt S]

14 hours ago, garypl said:

I think it might be more trouble to use hide glue than it’s worth.  I use hide glue for woodworking and it works great for gluing up chairs because eventually you can reverse the bond using alcohol or warm water and reglue the joints.  Downside is that you have to mix the dry glue with water and heat it to dissolve the glue.  You have to keep it hot while using it to keep it in liquid state. I have an electric glue pot that keeps it at a constant temp.  

I think there are easier ways to seal edges

Yeah I find PVA to be a lot easier than hide glue, but TBF hide glue for leather is a lot less exacting than for fine cabinetmaking or luthiery. No specific grade needed, just dump a small handful of pearls into a jar of warm water and leave overnight. Apply cold. Lasts a few days before it goes funky, depending on the weather.